It's Time to put up or shut up.

[Maxus]

I imagine it would be weird. Did you ever think Tome material would get the level of success it's enjoyed thus far?

[Orion]

I have a couple White Mage writeups lying around

One of them was heavily based on PHB II spells though which might make ti less appealing. But the abilities he needs aren't in the PHB. Which is more useful to the community? A caster with spells culled from various supplements, or a caster with unique abilities and class features?

[TarkisFlux]

My vote is always for unique. Easier to fix OGL concerns than blandness.

[Username17]

The concept with the White Mage was to have a character that dropped healing and protective magic in battle and had that actually fucking matter. Which means getting multi-target heals and big hp cures right out of the door. Cleric healing is not worth the combat actions in almost any cases because it just doesn't stack up well to enemy attacks on an action economy perspective.

The big limit there is the fact that if you hand out first level spells of cure spells that people actually cast that are big enough to matter at first level, that you implicitly make wands of such available too. And then you've essentially made the white mage character schtick into something a Cleric can replicate for 750 gp. So rather than hand out Cure Moderate or Mass Cure Light as 1st level spells, the construction goal should be to hand out a shitty spell list with shit like CLW on it as one of just a few constituents, and then give out Class Features that make castings of Cure Light actually fucking matter Something like a free chaining of your spells to a number of targets equal to your Wisdom modifier. Special care would have to be made to make sure that getting one's grubby mitts on Extra Spell or Bonus Domain didn't break the class.

I imagine it would be weird. Did you ever think Tome material would get the level of success it's enjoyed thus far?

Not really, no. The Revised Necromancer's Handbook was the first piece, and it generated a lot more response than we expected. I mean fuck, that still comes up on the top of the google search.

[Koumei]

Personally, since neither K nor myself refer to Tome material as Frank & K (nor K & Frank) Tome Material

But do you deny that you both call it "our baby"?

[Gelare]

Well I think this is a good call to arms, and I believe the organization of the effort is going to be important. What we definitely can't have (if we want to accomplish anything) is people shouting over each other about fifteen different topics in one thread. Probably the way to go is divide and conquer, where whoever wants to take point makes a thread for whatever individual bullet of Frank's they want to cover, and we go from there and compile when done.

[Akula]

For the White Mage:

[*]Chaining [healing] spells to a number of targets equal to your {casting stat} at first level.
[*]Uncap the healing from CL at first level. Rewrite Cure Moderate Wounds and the later Cures to give you more healing from caster level.
[*]Maximize healing at fifth level or thereabouts.
[*]Reach healing at 8th.
[*]Maximize and empower healing at 10th or so.

Those are easy ideas to help keep healing sort of relevant. The real problem is that HP gets bloated at high levels. Healing has to almost restore what you lose in a round, and that number goes up from both HD and Con. We also have to be careful that any fix to healing isn't then thrown out by a fix to evocation that vastly ups the damage that monsters can expect to deal.

[JonSetanta]

For the White Mage:

[*]Chaining [healing] spells to a number of targets equal to your {casting stat} at first level.
[*]Uncap the healing from CL at first level. Rewrite Cure Moderate Wounds and the later Cures to give you more healing from caster level.
[*]Maximize healing at fifth level or thereabouts.
[*]Reach healing at 8th.
[*]Maximize and empower healing at 10th or so.

Those are easy ideas to help keep healing sort of relevant. The real problem is that HP gets bloated at high levels. Healing has to almost restore what you lose in a round, and that number goes up from both HD and Con. We also have to be careful that any fix to healing isn't then thrown out by a fix to evocation that vastly ups the damage that monsters can expect to deal.

I was thinking something like a scaled Heal spell for all levels.
Debuff removal would be selective at first, though.

Ranged... of course.

[Aktariel]

Honestly, as the current caretaker of the Tome PDF, I'd just like to say,

It's About Fucking Time.


I'm not a designer, so I may or may not lend my voice, but I will try and add everything to the PDF.

[Akula]

Lesser Heal could work. But we're trying to make healing action efficient here, and at low levels it doesn't need much of a boost. Up to level 4 healing is something a Cleric might do in battle, as it would negate most of a hit or get a comrade standing with a chunk of their HP and ready to act again. I don't think we need to toss down Heal as a first level spell I could see a lower powered version showing up as a fourth level spell though.

[JonSetanta]

Then how about a walking White Mage toolbox of at-wills:

• Swift action HP restore by touch
• Standard action HP restore and debuff removal by touch, soon by range
• Standard action HP restore at long range
• Move action short-duration area buff or protection
• Longer cast time long-duration area buff
• a constant self-buff

They'd improve in potency and options as the character levels increase.
Class levels would improve speed and area, perhaps more advanced options.

[Akula]

That would work. I would add that you get a small buff distributed with your heals that scales with you. At least for the standard action healing. This would be more like a Fire Mage than a normal caster, but I'm okay with that; it isn't like there have been any worthwhile regular caster healers.

[Draco_Argentum]

What was the difference between the Tomes and TNE? TNE had the designers from the Tomes plus more people. It totally was better and got finished faster!

Wait... no.

Thats not how reality works. If you want a team as large as TGD to work on a project then there needs to be some form of project management. There must be a process in place to end a debate and force a decision. You all remember what TNE looked like, class[ed/less] took way to long to resolve. Centaurs was never really resolved.

So, step one. Come up with an acceptable means of making decisions. Once decided people who want to help do this will need to accept the outcome of the process. Anyone coming into a thread to rehash a resolved issue is just being disruptive.

[Koumei]

Who died and made you boss?

I'm going to continue randomly churning things out, and then people can discuss them and argue about them as necessary, and I may or may not join these discussions/argue back/make changes. And if someone else wants to cover the same thing as me, they're welcome to - they might do a better job, even.

And I will do this with or without managers, and will ignore any kind of administrative process that is supposed to happen.

[Judging__Eagle]

White Mage

Well, what the fuck did you expect? An actual white person? Man, fuck you, and fuck your couch. Oh, shiiet, there's a dude dying all over your couch man. Why didn't you tell me. You goddamn fools, look at this! You're getting blood all over this fine Bladereach Chesterfield. Well, you'll probably need a mage to clean this up, but I'll fix up your friend here

White Mages are some of the most hardcore people you will ever meet. They have seen the faces of death dozens of times, and will probably see it dozens more times. However, no matter what, they still don't flinch from the sight of the dead or dying, and continue to move forward and do the righting of wrongs that they feel that they need to accomplish.


Notes: The DCs of a White Mage's abilities are very flexible. It is always assumed that a White Mage uses their highest Mental Ability score modifier (Int, Wis, Cha).

Also, many White Mages are able to use their own natural health to help others, so they also use their Con modifier in many of their abilites; in addition to their mental ability score modifier.

HD: d12
BaB: Good
Skills: 4 + Int Mod; Choose as you see fit; Heal is important.
Saves: Fort, Will

Armour: Light, Medium, Heavy, Sheilds
Weapons: Light Weapons of any kind; Ranged Weapons.

Abilities:

1. Positive Energy Touch, Stunning touch
2. Cleansing, Stunning blows
3. Channel Positive Energy
4. Positive Energy Thoughts/Humming/Song/Fapping
5. Revive
6. Positive Energy Strikes

Positive Energy Touch: As a Touch Attack, a White Mage may touch a target and affect them as if they had been Healed for an amount equal to the Healer's ranks in the Heal skill; plus their highest mental ability modifier; and their constitution modifier. This ability harms creatures weak to Positive Energy.

If a White Mage multiclasses, they lose their Healing Hands ability unless they have at least 5 levels in the White Mage class.

Stunning Touch: As a touch attack, a White Mage may Stun a target for one round; the DC of this is the White Mage's 10 + 1/2 the White Mage's level; Plus the White Mage's mental ability modifier. This ability affects all creatures, Racial or Templated immunities to Stunning do not grant Immunity to this effect. Only creatures given Class, Feat or Spell, Equipment granted immunities would protect against this ability.

Cleansing: As a standard action, a White Mage can remove any of the following effects:
-Nausea
-Poison
-Disease
-[what else?]

Stunning blows: A White Mage may use a melee weapons when using their Stunning Touch ability. This may still be a touch attack, but would deal no damage. If a normal attack roll is made, then the Stunning effect works in adition to the damage that the weapon would deal.

Positive Energy Thoughts/Fapping/Song/Chant/Humming: As long as the White Mage spends a Swift Action every round, all of their allies within Close range (25 + 5 per 2 character levels) count as being healed by an amount equal to X; where X is equal to 1/2 the White Mages ranks in the Heal skill.

If the White Mage spends a Standard Action. Then all creatures harmed by Positive Energy within Close range are also affected by an amount of damage equal to what the White Mage's allies would have been healed.

If the White Mage spends a Full Round Action, then all creatures that are not undead-types or allies within Close range are damaged or healed by Positive energy, each affected as the White Mage chooses.

Revive: If you spend a full round action touching a creature that provokes an attack of opportunity, they come back from the dead if they are willing. The creauture comes back with 1 Hit Point, but is otherwise the same as if they were when they died.

You may only do this with creatures that can be ressurected, and with a creature that died no longer than your Mental Ability modifier in rounds.

Positive Energy Strikes: All of your attacks now are affected by your Positive Energy Touch ability. In addition, you may now choose to damage a living or not-alive, but not undead, target.

If you make touch attacks, only your Positive Energy Touch ability is triggered, and you deal no damage. This ability may be used with ranged attacks, as either normal attacks, or ranged touch attacks that deal no damage.

==============

I've only got 6 levels worth of abilities so far. Later stuff could be: remove ability damage, remove ability drain; ressurect people that died longer than a few rounds ago. Abilities to break undead and constructs. Protection abilities?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Hey JE, looks good. I was thinking that they should get a 'Red Cross' constant sanctuary effect so long as they don't wear armor. I was also thinking that they should be a bit more fragile (d6 HP/level).

Simply letting them add Heal ranks to the damage healed by any spell seems a good start.

Frank's use of metamagic is good. First I'd give them Reach spell automagically for their class spells (or some subset). Then some choice of chain, extend, empower, or maximize.

Also, stunning touch seems to go beyond the scope of the class. It makes them too much of melee powerhouses--although it does make for a very neat White Mage/Monk multiclass. I was thinking that the class would have practically no offensive ability beyond, perhaps, being able to hit enemies with a reversed chained shield other.

[Judging__Eagle]

Like I said to someone else, the typical White Mage is Samuel Jackson with a baseball bat studded with foot-long nails, and wearing fullplate. With a long white robe on top.

I don't mind offensive healers. In fact, I like the idea of the healer being really tough and fighting.

The "stunning touch" ability is more of an "oh shit, monsters!" ability, meant to give the character the ability to back off without risk; as well as set-up enemies for other party members to attack.

I'm also not really keen on spells, or making them an actual spell caster, since that means I need to write a spell list, and I'm lazy. I'd rather just give the character abilities that work, and that they need.

The "reflected damage" idea is okay, but it's not really the expected D&D way to fight your enemies.

Basically, this character is a "cleric" that is simpler. Sort of how the Fire Mage is a Mage, but simple.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Basically, this character is a "cleric" that is simpler. Sort of how the Fire Mage is a Mage, but simple.

I thought that was the Marshall. Honestly, I think between the Marshall and... that other one, the non-fiendish Sphere-based one I can't find just now... I thought we had the White Mage schtick covered pretty well.

This is not to say that I don't like this class, it seems pretty kick-ass.

[Quantumboost]

I thought that was the Marshall. Honestly, I think between the Marshall and... that other one, the non-fiendish Sphere-based one I can't find just now... I thought we had the White Mage schtick covered pretty well.

Marshalls don't really cover the "White Mage" schtick until they get Aura of Healing at 5th level - until then all their healing is out-of-combat, and their in-combat actions are inspiration etc.

What was the Sphere-based one?

But the Pin Angel's ultimately right - we already have offensive melee healers in the form of the Cleric (out-of-combat healing) and Marshall (aura healing with inspiration and stabbing). What we don't have much of is an actual healing mage. The White Mage should either not be on offense, or use the sort they use in the source material - "healing" undead with positive energy and throwing Light damage spells. If they had a spell list, righteous might wouldn't be on it, but (fixed versions of) searing light and sunburst would. The same for special abilities.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Like I said to someone else, the typical White Mage is Samuel Jackson with a baseball bat studded with foot-long nails, and wearing fullplate. With a long white robe on top.

Er, isn't that the cleric? Spikes, heavy armor proficiency, magic vestment...

I don't mind offensive healers. In fact, I like the idea of the healer being really tough and fighting.

As Angel said, "Marshall".

The "stunning touch" ability is more of an "oh shit, monsters!" ability, meant to give the character the ability to back off without risk; as well as set-up enemies for other party members to attack.

The intended use is fairly unimportant when the actual use is adding a stun-type effect to every hit you make with your board-with-a-nail.

I'm also not really keen on spells, or making them an actual spell caster, since that means I need to write a spell list, and I'm lazy. I'd rather just give the character abilities that work, and that they need.

Other people are willing to put in the work, but I think it should be a 'spontaneous, know everything' list. As Angel said, Marshall.

The "reflected damage" idea is okay, but it's not really the expected D&D way to fight your enemies.

No shit, the healer/defender is not an expected character in D&D.

Basically, this character is a "cleric" that is simpler. Sort of how the Fire Mage is a Mage, but simple.

Again, as Angel said: Marshall.

[Surgo]

Would anybody actually want to play such a class if it had no offense?

[TarkisFlux]

Would anybody actually want to play such a class if it had no offense?

No offense at all? No. Strongly limited offense? Sure. I can think of a couple of people I've played with who just don't want to take an active part in combat unless they're really really pissed at the guy, generally preferring a support / healing role. A class built around doing that well with a limited offensive selection would appeal to them pretty strongly actually.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Would anybody actually want to play such a class if it had no offense?

The Marshall already has a mostly negligible offense, and no-one really cares.

I mean, personally I've never been very fond of the full-plate-wearing full-casting Cleric. The origin of the class has nothing to do with emulating anything seen in any source material, even if in retrospect it does look a bit like the Bishop Odo prestige class.

My feeling is that the full-plate holy warrior thing should be entirely relegated to the Paladin, and the full-holy-caster should be a White Mage thing, in robes and such. Working more closely off the Wizard chassis would learn those cheaty-face Clerics a thing or two. Maybe not enough, but it'd be a good start.

[Kaelik]

The fact is that Clerics exist, but aren't good in combat healers. So whatever class the White Mage ends up being, people need to be able to choose White Mage instead of Cleric and not feel dumb. The way to do that is to not make them a mediocre healer with in combat bashing. It is to make them in combat healers who can't bash.

Also, Yeah Judging Eagle, what you really made was a two level dip class for every melee class ever. Stunning Blows is just straight up better than anything else that class gets, and that for Good BAB, two good save progressions, and proficiencies in all armors and several exotic weapon proficiencies.

The White Mage should be a mage class. Probably of the Beguiler type.

I'll get started on a loose collection of class abilities for people to add suggestions to, and I'll use my sweet as spellbook program to come up with a spell list. Something of the Healing in combat (class abilities making it good) + Light spells + some other people buffs.

[Judging__Eagle]

Basically, this character is a "cleric" that is simpler. Sort of how the Fire Mage is a Mage, but simple.

I thought that was the Marshall. Honestly, I think between the Marshall and... that other one, the non-fiendish Sphere-based one I can't find just now... I thought we had the White Mage schtick covered pretty well.

This is not to say that I don't like this class, it seems pretty kick-ass.

Eh, I didn't really like the Marshall class enought to actually play it. It's mechanically fine, just not what I wanted to play. The flat out lack of real offense sort of threw me off I think.

I wanted to make a character that is not only very effective at fixing people, but dangerous enough to not have to run away when faced with danger. I guess one way of looking at it would be giving the MiniHB Healer a scaling "Smite Harmers" ability; +1d6 damage per level to all attacks, usuable only on creatures that have harmed someone.

I originally had this as a d6 HD, poor BaB class; but got lazy and didn't want to have spells listed or used by the class.

Like i said, this is the cleric version of the fire mage, in the same way that the fire mage is a take on the sorcerer or wizard. The class name that I'm using probably needs changing though. I'm really not sure what to go with though; Light Champion is the currently best name that I can come up with.