[4e] Psion Preview

[Just another user]

I like 2nd ed way to limit nova'ing, higher level spells need more time to recover, if you cast a ninth level spell you cannot sure you will have the chance to get it back the next day, so you think twice before to cast it.

I always thought the change to prepartion/memorization time was one the main mistakes in the passage from 2nd to 3rd edition, The watering down of "damage spoil concentration and you can't cast spells" was the other.

[Roy]

Bullshit. The Psion is in the same boat as the Sorcerer or whatever. He throws out 1 or 2 powers and wins the fucking encounter. And then he has plenty left for more encounters. Even if he wanted to nova, he can't because he has more reserves than meaningful combat rounds.

Also back in earlier editions, spells got even more mileage out of them because they were even stronger, and you mostly fought mooks. Even the weak spells now were quite solid. Fireball was 20 dice in 1st edition. As in 20-120. Mother fucking gods had 66 HP. And that's just a 3rd level spell - not even a meaningful resource for you then.

2nd edition makes it 10 dice, and makes enemies finally start breaking the three digit barrier but even so you still had a version of 'Glitterdust, got them all' against everything, and not just the mooks.

In 3rd and such you actually have to use your best tools to deal with real threats.

[hogarth]

Fuck dumbasses. Lago's actual argument, which you can read really easy when you are done being deliberate fuckholes, is that a power point system inherently encourages Psions to use the same power 13 times and then rest, which is different from a Sorcerer who has to use different fucking shit.

A 10th level sorcerer can use Evard's Black Tentacles 10 times in a row and then rest after he blows all of his 4th and 5th level slots.

Rebuttal, dumbass?

[Vnonymous]

It looks like a solution to the "spam strongest power" problem would be to just standardise damage and save scaling with augmentation, so that every power you have is equally "powerful", just...different. You'd still have a few outrider powers like that telekinetic maneuver one that gives you a virtual grapple or something, but it'd be better than what we have right now.

So you could just use 20 energy rays all the time, but you'd be much better off using an energy ray against that single enemy, a ball against that squad of goblins and the mind-crush against the dumb fire giant.

Using this approach, I think you could make an interesting "as you use your attacks, they become more powerful", allowing you to make your final attack one to remember.

[Murtak]

I like 2nd ed way to limit nova'ing, higher level spells need more time to recover, if you cast a ninth level spell you cannot sure you will have the chance to get it back the next day, so you think twice before to cast it.

Great, so you go from "I cast rope trick and come back tomorrow" to "I cast teleport and come back next week". This solves nothing.

[ggroy]

[Roy]

I like 2nd ed way to limit nova'ing, higher level spells need more time to recover, if you cast a ninth level spell you cannot sure you will have the chance to get it back the next day, so you think twice before to cast it.

Great, so you go from "I cast rope trick and come back tomorrow" to "I cast teleport and come back next week". This solves nothing.

As I said before, spells go further. It was what? 5 minutes per spell level to recover? Or maybe 10? I forgot. 3rd level shit seriously rocked house even at high levels, and even if you needed a 9th level spell to win each encounter that's 6 hours of rest. Less than now.

[Kaelik]

Fuck dumbasses. Lago's actual argument, which you can read really easy when you are done being deliberate fuckholes, is that a power point system inherently encourages Psions to use the same power 13 times and then rest, which is different from a Sorcerer who has to use different fucking shit.

A 10th level sorcerer can use Evard's Black Tentacles 10 times in a row and then rest after he blows all of his 4th and 5th level slots.

Rebuttal, dumbass?

And a Psion can spam Mind Thrust at 1 PP a hundred times. That doesn't mean anyone besides you will be stupid enough to do it.

Psionics makes spamming the same exact move the optimal choice. Sorcerers who use higher level slots to cast lower level spells are retarded.

[Psychic Robot]

The difference is that after casting Black Tentacles you still have Web. After a psion novas he has nothing.

Right-o. What's wrong with that?

[hogarth]

Psionics makes spamming the same exact move the optimal choice. Sorcerers who use higher level slots to cast lower level spells are retarded.

Please explain how a sorcerer spamming a single spell 10 times and a psion spamming a single power 13 times are different.

(Hint: They're not particularly different.)

[Kaelik]

Psionics makes spamming the same exact move the optimal choice. Sorcerers who use higher level slots to cast lower level spells are retarded.

Please explain how a sorcerer spamming a single spell 10 times and a psion spamming a single power 13 times are different.

(Hint: They're not particularly different.)

The Sorcerer could have cast better spells by casting different spells, so smart people, IE not you, would choose the optimal choice of casting higher level and different spells.

The Psion could not possibly have cast better powers, and if he ever chooses to use anything other then full power points on one of his higher level powers, he is a fucking retard.

Points tells you flat out to use your best ability with all your points.

Spell levels tell you to use your best spells in the highest level slots, and to use worse and different spells in your lower slots.

The fact that you can cast Color Spray 11 million times a day has no bearing on anything. Wasting higher level spell slots on lower level spells is retarded and only an idiot would think it's a good idea. Spell slots only actually matter because 5th level spells are better than 4th level spells, so we can all just recognize that a Sorcerer who casts the same spell 10 times is a retard and ignore him.

[hogarth]

The Sorcerer could have cast better spells by casting different spells, so smart people, IE not you, would choose the optimal choice of casting higher level and different spells.

The Psion could not possibly have cast better powers, and if he ever chooses to use anything other then full power points on one of his higher level powers, he is a fucking retard.

You're still not explaining anything. You're just making the baseless claim "psions have one good power, sorcerers have lots of good spells". Can I counter that by saying "psions have lots of good powers, sorcerers have one good spell"? It's just as chock-full of logic and reasoning as whatever garbage you just said.

At any rate, you're still not explaining how psionics is overpowered, which is the retarded claim that Lago made in the first place. If anything, you're arguing that psionics are less powerful than magic (which I agree with).

[CatharzGodfoot]

At any rate, you're still not explaining how psionics is overpowered, which is the retarded claim that Lago made in the first place. If anything, you're arguing that psionics are less powerful than magic (which I agree with).

No, the claim was never that psionics were overpowered. The claim was that the system is "broken". Now, the broken claim is probably exaggerated; psions and psychic warriors aren't particularly broken. The system itself, however, is awful. Psionic classes would be straight up better if they used the sorcerer mechanic. An no, I don't mean "more powerful" or "less powerful". I mean better.

[Psychic Robot]

I'm still not seeing how being able to take a first-level spell and make it into a third-level spell is a bad thing.

Again: Why is manifesting the same power over and over again bad? You don't have to augment your power to the fullest.

Honestly, at this point, it feels like somebody (probably Frank) once said that psionics suck and Vancian is awesome (even though Vancian sucks), so everyone is pretending that Vancian is awesome and that psionics suck.

"DUDE IT'S STUPID TO SPAM THE SAME POWER OVER AND OVER"

Why? And you don't have to spam it. You can use different powers with lesser point costs. And let's not pretend that Vancian spells are that much different--because there's a huge difference between heroism and greater heroism, amirite? And charm person and charm monster? And hold person and hold monster? And invisibility and greater invisibility? And every single repetitious summon monster and summon nature's ally spell? (Protip: All those spells, save for invisibility, are combined into single powers in psionics. Not having redundant powers is a good thing.)

[CatharzGodfoot]

I'm still not seeing how being able to take a first-level spell and make it into a third-level spell is a bad thing.

Again: Why is manifesting the same power over and over again bad? You don't have to augment your power to the fullest.

So, what's a situation where you don't max-augment your power, short of breakpoints or lack of fuel?

[Psychic Robot]

When you want to conserve your energy, similarly to how you don't blow all your high-level spells in a single combat.

I am amazed that people find this concept to be foreign. It's almost as if we're all lost in a forest and we have two different food supplies to choose from. The first is a big pot of stew that you can draw from whenever, taking any amount of food. The second is a variety of snack packs, apples, and candy bars. Everyone here is screaming about how OMG STEW IS BROKEN YOU'RE GOING TO EAT IT ALL AT ONCE AND THEN STARVE TO DEATH HOW STUPID IS THAT while pretending that snack packs are an absolutely brilliant invention because you have to eat one and then open another one.

[hogarth]

At any rate, you're still not explaining how psionics is overpowered, which is the retarded claim that Lago made in the first place. If anything, you're arguing that psionics are less powerful than magic (which I agree with).

No, the claim was never that psionics were overpowered.

False.

Psionic powers are simultaneously too weak and too powerful.

The claim was that the system is "broken". Now, the broken claim is probably exaggerated; psions and psychic warriors aren't particularly broken.

Agreed. "Weaker than Vancian spellcasting" and "doesn't have much stamina or variation" is not the same as "broken".

"I don't like it" is not the same as "broken".

The system itself, however, is awful. Psionic classes would be straight up better if they used the sorcerer mechanic. An no, I don't mean "more powerful" or "less powerful". I mean better.

That's a matter of taste, just like Lago said my complaints about Vancian spellcasting are a matter of taste.

[Orion]

The point actually is that WITHIN a combat psionics producs un-fun novas.

There's never an incentive to safe power to use later in the same combat, so the wizard attacks for 15d6, 15d6, 12d6, 12d6, 10d6, 10d6; during the same fight the psions attacks for 15d6, 15d6, 15d6, 15d6, 0, 0.

[Wulf]

Never played a psion, I only played a psychic warror twice. But I never felt monotonomous with my powers. Well, the psychic warrior has little in the way of direct damage ofcourse. I normally use if for special buffs and movement.

But I kinda like how I can shift my power points around to what i need most and use less powerpoints for non-essential buffs to save some power. In this way, the power points represents a limited resource that you can use to enhance various aspects of your character depending on the situation.

But I guess a psion would play a lot different.

[hogarth]

The point actually is that WITHIN a combat psionics producs un-fun novas.

And sorcerers are perfectly capable of doing exactly the same thing (modulo their different spell/power lists).

"But a sorcerer doing that is dumb, and a psion doing that is smart, even though I have no proof of it!"

I've played both psions and sorcerers. Not suprisingly, there is a certain amount of repetition in what powers/spells are used. In fact, they were very similar in how they played. But don't let actual play experience conflict with garbage that folks are just making up out of thin air.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The point actually is that WITHIN a combat psionics producs un-fun novas.

And sorcerers are perfectly capable of doing exactly the same thing (modulo their different spell/power lists).

So how does a sorcerer burn through all of her spell slots without touching a single spell below max level?

[NineInchNall]

But it's the same thing if you use a lower-level spell slot. Why cast web when you can cast black tentacles?

The difference is that after casting Black Tentacles you still have Web. After a psion novas he has nothing.

A wizard's spell slots when converted to power point costs sum to nearly the same total as the power point pool of an equal level psion. If the wizard has enough power left to cast a 4th and a 2nd level spell, the psion should have enough to do the same.

- Wizard has two remaining slots: one 2nd filled with web and one 4th filled with black tentacles.
- Psion has 10 remaining power points.

The Wizard casts black tentacles and is left with web for the rest of the day.

The Psion manifests [4th level power/augmented power costing 7pp/metapsionically modified power costing 7pp] and is left with 3pp.

Now, I'm not saying psionics isn't weak; I'm just saying your comparison is inaccurate at best.

[Kaelik]

You're still not explaining anything. You're just making the baseless claim "psions have one good power, sorcerers have lots of good spells". Can I counter that by saying "psions have lots of good powers, sorcerers have one good spell"? It's just as chock-full of logic and reasoning as whatever garbage you just said.

You are fucking retarded, and there is no way short of willful ignorance that anyone could possibly be as stupid as you.

A Sorcerer must of necessity use spells lower then his maximum spell level. There is no fucking getting around that. The system demands that he have multiple different power levels of spells, and therefore, he does, and he casts spells of different levels.

A Psion can have lots of powers, but all the ones that are below his maximum power level are worse, even when fully augmented, than his highest power level. He is also a complete idiot to ever use less than the maximum power points.

To simplify this into hypothetical damage situations:

A Sorcerers spells do 2d6+1 damage per spell level.

A Psions powers do 1d6 damage per power point + power level.

Note that this situation is more favorable to the Psion then the actual Psionic and spellcasting rules.

A Sorcerer has 1 spell of every level 1-5:

Any intelligent person is going to choose to do 2d6+1, 4d6+2, 6d6+3, 8d6+4, and 10d6+5.

Yes, it is possible for him to do 2d6+1 damage 5 times. Like you keep suggesting by casting lower level spells in higher level slots. That is also retarded.

A Psion has equivalent power points to a Sorcerer's spells, 30 power points.

He will always assuming he has a brain, do 10d6+5, 10d6+5, 10d6+5.

He could also, if he were fucking retarded, do 8d6+4, 8d6+4, 8d6+4, 6d6+3. All he would accomplish is wasting his fucking time.

The Sorcerer's optimal choice is to cast different spells. The Psions optimal choice is to use the same power over and over. This can be generalized to any possible spell level vs power point system provided these assumptions are made:

1) Characters of the same level with Power points have the equivalent power points to spell levels.

2) Higher level spells or powers are better than lower level spells or powers (even fully augmented).

That's seriously all it takes.

Now, either Psions are encouraged to spam their higher level powers only, and Sorcerers are forced to use a variety of lower level powers, or you have to convincingly argue that psionic powers of lower level are just as good as higher level ones, or that spells of lower level are just as good as higher level ones.

[Kaelik]

The point actually is that WITHIN a combat psionics producs un-fun novas.

And sorcerers are perfectly capable of doing exactly the same thing (modulo their different spell/power lists).

So how does a sorcerer burn through all of her spell slots without touching a single spell below max level?

He's pretending that a Sorcerer preparing Color Spray in every single slot including his level 5 slots is a viable choice.

[Psychic Robot]

I'm still not seeing how being able to take a first-level spell and make it into a third-level spell is a bad thing.

Again: Why is manifesting the same power over and over again bad? You don't have to augment your power to the fullest.

Honestly, at this point, it feels like somebody (probably Frank) once said that psionics suck and Vancian is awesome (even though Vancian sucks), so everyone is pretending that Vancian is awesome and that psionics suck.

"DUDE IT'S STUPID TO SPAM THE SAME POWER OVER AND OVER"

Why? And you don't have to spam it. You can use different powers with lesser point costs. And let's not pretend that Vancian spells are that much different--because there's a huge difference between heroism and greater heroism, amirite? And charm person and charm monster? And hold person and hold monster? And invisibility and greater invisibility? And every single repetitious summon monster and summon nature's ally spell? (Protip: All those spells, save for invisibility, are combined into single powers in psionics. Not having redundant powers is a good thing.)

I am amazed that people find the concept of conserving spells/power points to be foreign. It's almost as if we're all lost in a forest and we have two different food supplies to choose from. The first is a big pot of stew that you can draw from whenever, taking any amount of food. The second is a variety of snack packs, apples, and candy bars. Everyone here is screaming about how OMG STEW IS BROKEN YOU'RE GOING TO EAT IT ALL AT ONCE AND THEN STARVE TO DEATH HOW STUPID IS THAT while pretending that snack packs are an absolutely brilliant invention because you have to eat one and then open another one.