It's Time to put up or shut up.

Manxome · Post by **Manxome** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:36 pm

You might be able to steal "white mage" material from here or here, if you were so inclined.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:39 pm

Surgo wrote:Would anybody actually want to play such a class if it had no offense?

Yeah, depending on what you mean. It shouldn't be a good solo class, but it shouldn't be completely useless either. At the very least, a stranded 'white mage' should be able to buff herself and heal herself up to nigh invulnerability while she plinks away at her enemies. A chained reach cure light wounds with bonus damage = Heal ranks is at least as effective as turning undead.

angelfromanotherpin wrote:My feeling is that the full-plate holy warrior thing should be entirely relegated to the Paladin, and the full-holy-caster should be a White Mage thing, in robes and such. Working more closely off the Wizard chassis would learn those cheaty-face Clerics a thing or two. Maybe not enough, but it'd be a good start.

I'm with you, but that's completely beyond the scope of the tomes.

Judging__Eagle wrote: Like i said, this is the cleric version of the fire mage, in the same way that the fire mage is a take on the sorcerer or wizard. The class name that I'm using probably needs changing though. I'm really not sure what to go with though; Light Champion is the currently best name that I can come up with.

Go for it, although the fire mage is already a 'light mage'. "Paladin" might be a good name for it.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:51 pm

Combat healing isn't part of the D&D idiom though.

Sure, the White Mage should have *better* combat healing than D&D clerics, why not? But control and buffing is the way that D&D mages work.

My White Mage (which was on a different computer and will have to be re-created some time in the next couple days) was a beguiler-style cast with all the cures and a variety of improvements to their use, but he also had various enchantment spells for subduing enemies, the whelm series of nonlethal nukes, immediate action spells for defending allies, and thematically appropriate summons and battlefield control.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:13 pm

How about:

Being able to cast healing spells as Target instead of Touch as a Move action. Also gets them At Will, or with a very short recharge.
Being able to cast a small buff (e.g. +4 to AC for another PC) as a Swift action at range.
Being able to cast pretty powerful ongoing debuffs (e.g. entangled, slowed, etc) or wall type effects as Concentration abilities. So, a powerful one against one enemy or a mild one against several targets in a 10ft radius. This could include a constant Windwall type effect to stop archers or... I dunno, a wall of antimagic that stops spells coming through it.

That way you immediately have a caster who is encouraged to heal, buff the party and so on, and the party as a whole is encouraged to send a couple of people forward while the White Mage hangs at the back supporting the party.

I think the important thing is that if the player is performing defensive or healing actions they should get more things to do in a round. If all a healing spell does is negate an attack then they should be able to do at least two of them or they are useless. If the player gets several things to do each round which they can easily see the effect of which isn't just healing then they don't feel useless or a back up character.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:59 pm

Boolean wrote:Combat healing isn't part of the D&D idiom though.

I think that's more due to how effective healing is right now than it is part of the concepts included in D&D - my understanding is that in past editions healers actually did cast healing spells in the middle of combat. It probably relates to the HP inflation that also made Evocation start sucking.

I also expect that part of the point behind including "White Mage" in the Tome of Virtue was to *make* combat healing part of the 3.x D&D idiom. The clerics in an IRC game I play in have cast healing spells in combat in the past, which means that (at least anecdotally) people actually want or expect to cast healing spells in combat.

If the White Mage can be a level-appropriate healer then we've just expanded the "things that are effective in D&D" idiom to include things people already try to do. Kind of like how the Dungeonomicon Monk empowers people who want characters who use kung fu.

Parthenon wrote:I think the important thing is that if the player is performing defensive or healing actions they should get more things to do in a round. If all a healing spell does is negate an attack then they should be able to do at least two of them or they are useless.

+1. Action-negation should more than negate what an opponent does with equivalent resources, since it's reactionary. So casting a 5th-level spell should more than compensate for having taken a Necromancer's enervate, and a full-round action should more than restore the hit points from a Barbarian's full attack. How *much* more is a question of what the actual actions are and playtesting.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:06 pm

I still think giving them small amount of range,d swift action healing would satisfy those people without needing to balance a completely new paradigm.

angelfromanotherpin · Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:21 pm

In-combat healing creates a number of set-ups which I personally find annoying, but which are probably a matter of taste.

• Go Team Cleric!
This is all about action parity. In theory, one healing action should negate one attack action, but this can lead to boring stalemates. I like the idea where people chain otherwise in-combat-useless effects like CLW to give a smaller amount of healing to a larger number of people, so that no individual combatant is being completely foiled, but the total amount of good juju is substantial.

• Shoot the Doctor First!
This is just a syndrome that I find annoying. It would be nice if part of the dedicated healer's schtick involved being a low-priority target so I don't feel like a heel for being encouraged to kick-murder the enemy medics. For a healer who is also an ass-kicker like the posted White Mage, it's less of an issue.

• You Cannot Heal What Does Not Live.
I don't have a pithy comic for this one, but at certain level bands (very low, and then moderate and up) there's a serious chance that any successful attack will just straight-up be fatal, and your healing of any quantity is useless. Some ability to convert healing effects into temporary hit point effects might be worthwhile.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:29 pm

for what it's worth JE, I kinda like the Samuel L Jackson image you've got with your white mage...

hmm...

Bad Ass Mother Fucking Healer?

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:42 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Some ability to convert healing effects into temporary hit point effects might be worthwhile.

Or being able to cast a healing spell as an interrupt to prevent a friend dying.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:47 pm

Yes, it did use to be in D&D that Healing spells the same as Evocation. Healing started single-target, Evocation started multi-target; and they ramped up to be pretty equal at the end with Mass Heal and area Disintegrate effects.

-Crissa

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:27 am

I rarely write material (only when inspiration strikes, which isn't very often) but I'd be happy to format any Tomes that come out of this into PDFs and websites just like the old Tomes have been formatted.

edit: Put up all the stuff I made in IMOI. Yeah, that's seriously all of it. I told you I only wrote stuff rarely.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:31 am

I'll put something up when I can. My designing skills aren't to hot but I will at least contribute.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:14 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:You Cannot Heal What Does Not Live.
I don't have a pithy comic for this one, but at certain level bands (very low, and then moderate and up) there's a serious chance that any successful attack will just straight-up be fatal, and your healing of any quantity is useless. Some ability to convert healing effects into temporary hit point effects might be worthwhile.

What is "does not live"? Hit points are a fucking abstraction.

See, people can take some time to die, even when they have a hole in the chest. So there's a person at minus something bleeding all over your couch with a hole in the chest, losing 1 hp per round but maybe even conscious thanks to a feat, but you don't actually know whether the wound is fatal or not until he either stabilizes or croaks. D&D has all kinds of crazy magic. Why exacty the lump of flesh that is my heart would be harder to restore to full functioning than the lump of flesh that is my hand?

In real life, a person is primarily his brain. Theoretically, it can be transplanted or scanned or kept in stasis and a new body created for it to inhabit. What is a person in D&D? A soul. There are spells that fvck with souls and kill people outright. Having a head cut off is not a problem at all - from a fluff standpoint at least.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Starmaker wrote:What is "does not live"? Hit points are a fucking abstraction.

At first level, a fighter can swing for 2d6+6 with a greatsword. A barbarian can swing for... more. Those attacks have non-inconsequential chances of just rendering another first level character dead (especially a more fragile one) with the first attack that connects. Not dying, actually ≤-10 hp dead. And the Cure X Wounds series of spells is useless once the subject has died.

Similarly, once the game hits a certain level, the Save-or-Dies come out, and people tend to exist in two states where healing is of no value; 'perfectly healthy' and 'doornail.' And the charge builds have hit what passes for their stride and are dropping ridiculous damage amounts for very similar effect.

Now, by the time the SoDs are being flung around, I presume the White Mage will also be doing crazy high-level things, but there is a very early part of the game where the ability to heal damage may well be completely irrelevant against enemies who have emphasized their damage output.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:06 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:for what it's worth JE, I kinda like the Samuel L Jackson image you've got with your white mage...

hmm...

Bad Ass Mother Fucking Healer?

Actually, he heals pretty awesomely too.

At level 6, when they get "touch attacks as a means to channel your +-energy touch" ability; they now have 2 attacks; and can use bows.

they can seriously make ranged touch attacks against allies (or undead, or enemies) for 9 + Mental Mod + Con Mod per attack.

Assuming a +2 Con, and a +3 Int/Wis/Cha as the highest mental mod (both are very conservative; we know that there's probably a +4 and a +3 there really; but w/e); that's about 14 HP healed as an attack action at level 6; 28 HP healed if the character "heals" twice in a round.

If the character is a TWF character that throws healing darts; that's double the healing per round (although with a slightly shorter range of only 50' as ranged touch attacks); upping their healing to 56 HP healed per round, in 4 heals of 14 HP each.

I'm not sure about the rest of you guys, but I think that at level 6 a single heal worth 14 HP is decent; and a maximum of 56 HP healed in one round by a character is pretty much as high as I'd feel comfortable with being healed per round.

At level 10; the heals are 13 + 5 + 5 (Wish econ assumed, +5 to stats, plus stat boost items) for 23 HP healed per action; or about 1/4 of the average level 10 fighter's HP. The character doesn't yet have 3 attacks, but can heal 93 HP per round at 50' range.

I see this character as being on the front lines, like Clerics are now; and if someone on their team gets hurt, this character will shove their mace into their shoulder and heal them, while not breaking their stride and attacking a creature that's in front of them. Basically, a healer that everyone expects to be beside the people who take a lot of damage, or a character that also takes a lot of damage, and can heal themselves.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:57 pm

So, Witch and Sohei are basically complete.

I might tackle Warmage, pending an answer on what we want: a tactical/strategic mage who does some artillery but also handles walls, conjuring food and shelter and so on or someone who just really enjoys making things go splat.

I might also try redoing how Diseases work - my idea for it is that the disease first has the vector of infection and the initial save DC and incubation period.

Then you have the onset phase (DC to prevent bad things happening, DC to fight the disease off entirely, duration until next phase, the damage/effects, the DC and info gained from a successful check (Heal or sometimes different Knowledges), and what is needed to cure it).

Then the progression phase (same things as above).

Finally, the final stages (DC to prevent bad things happening, DC to fight the disease off entirely, the damage/effects, the DC and info gained from a successful check, what is needed to cure it and the chance of a relapse later on).

So that a party walks through a spooky forest, and one week later, the guy who got injured in the swamp first gets a fever, then begins to sweat a lot. Cleric Hovel says "That's not interesting, it's the flu, take 2 potions of CLW and Telepathy me in the morning." before chugging a potion of Cure Serious.

Four hours later, his condition worsens, he is now cold and has clammy skin, almost rubbery, and is producing stupid amounts of phlegm. Now they're thinking "Shit, I don't know, maybe we're looking at Devil Chills. Hey, did you fight any devils?" "It might be Lupus." "You shut the fuck up right now."

The next day, his skin is beginning to liquify and he's coughing his lungs up. Literally. They're worried now, knowing he's going to die soon - the attempt at curing Devil Chills just made things worse. An Adept says "Could it be Mummy Rot?" "Oh YEAH, of COURSE, because the place was just SWARMING with mummies, right?" Hovel replies.
"No need to ooze with sarcasm, Cleric."
"...ooze with sarcasm. OF COURSE! OOZE!"

Cleric Hovel then uses the cure for Slimy Doom and the patient is saved, hooray!

Is this the kind of thing people want out of their diseases? And if so, "Remove Disease" should probably instead just cancel out the symptoms or give a save bonus or something (and automatically removes any caused specifically by Contagion), with various diseases requiring specific cures unless fought off naturally. Or Remove Disease could be a much higher level spell that completely removes any Disease. So that basically, at level X, Disease just doesn't happen to PCs because there's a "skip that minigame" spell.

Finally, I recall that Tome of Tiamat was going to cover the idea of making monstrous PCs. Did that change to "This book covers creating Celestial PCs, this one covers Fiends" and so on? Or is there still the desire for racial-progressions-that-don't-make-us-cry for minotaurs and yuan-ti and stuff?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:17 pm

The disease system that I made for Shadowrun in Augmentation is one that worked pretty well. A Disease has two numbers: a strength that is resisted each time it acts, and a number of times that it acts. The total effect is the current running total of all the unresisted strength. And you can do things in the mean time to heal up. So in general what happens is it gets worse and worse until it runs out of attacks, and then if you aren't dead it gets better and better as you rest up.

-Username17

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:40 pm

What is the status on classes that have been posted already in My Own Invention? Are we going to decide on one, cannibalize them, or just start from scratch?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:06 pm

I think we are going to try to use them as much as possible where appropriate.

The Curator is a very good White Mage, and will probably be in the running with whatever we come up with. Witch + Sohei that were just made were made specifically for this addition. I was making my True Celestial along that line, but I think now with the new focus for the Tomes I'm going to rewrite it drastically for inclusion as the only Celestial class, which makes sense, cause celestials all follow the same pattern.

I'll probably incorporate whatever (Murtak?) had been planned for the celestial brute type and diverge sharply from mirroring the True Fiend so much.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:22 pm

They don't necessarily fit nicely into the remaining tomes, but if there's any desire to include my skill rewrites I'd be happy to toss them in. You're also welcome to strip any useful bits from them if there are useful pieces that should be included.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:11 am

Koumei wrote:Finally, I recall that Tome of Tiamat was going to cover the idea of making monstrous PCs. Did that change to "This book covers creating Celestial PCs, this one covers Fiends" and so on? Or is there still the desire for racial-progressions-that-don't-make-us-cry for minotaurs and yuan-ti and stuff?

the "level adjustments that don't suck" is actually what I've mainly been waiting for.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:55 am

Oh, hey, what about the armors?

Also, I dug up my Ice Mage. Will post in It's My Own Invention soon to be picked apart.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:19 am

Prak_Anima wrote: the "level adjustments that don't suck" is actually what I've mainly been waiting for.

Have a few monsters you want done in particular? Because you don't want me randomly picking them. Hey, it could be like that massive Pokemon project I did!

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:59 am

Koumei wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote: the "level adjustments that don't suck" is actually what I've mainly been waiting for.
Have a few monsters you want done in particular? Because you don't want me randomly picking them. Hey, it could be like that massive Pokemon project I did!

hey, the massive pokemon project was pretty cool.

I'd definitely like to see destrachan, but I think the idea, at least as Frank portrayed it, was to create another method of converting a monster to a playable race, possibly using some generalized class system, or something.

Another thing we need to do is write up the dragon classes and stuff such that a Dragon Lancer can have a proper mount.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:49 am

Bigode has that Dragon class. I thought enough of it that I saved it onto my computer...In fact, I keep meaning to post it on the DnD Wiki, but the two times I've tried, my mouse (which is getting old and sensitive about whether that's one click or two clicks) freaked out and I lost all the formatting I'd done.

DRAGON

Hit Die: d12.
Attack: Good.
Fortitude: Good.
Reflex: Good.
Will: Good.
Skill Points: 6 + Int
Proficiencies: None.
Class Skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device, any three others.

1 Immortality, Immunities, Bite, Breath Weapon,
2 Claws, Draconic Scales 1, Draconic Strength +2,
3 Draconic Toughness +2, Flight,
4 Bonus Feat , Draconic Scales 2
5 Size Increase (Large)
6 Draconic Strength +4, Draconic Scales 3, Sphere
7 Draconic Sense, Strengthened Wings
8 Bonus Feat, Damage Reduction, Draconic Scales 4
9
10 Draconic Strength +6, Draconic Scales 5, Size Increase (Huge)
11 Blindsense, Draconic Toughness +4, Spell Resistance
12 Bonus Feat, Sphere, Draconic Scales 6
13 Frightful Presence
14 Draconic Strength +8, Draconic scales 7
15 Size Increase (Gargantuan)
16 Blindsight, Bonus Feat, Draconic Scales 8
17 Crush
18 Draconic Strength +10 Sphere, Draconic scales 9
19 Draconic Toughness (+6)
20 Bonus Feat , Draconic scales 10, Size Increase (Colossal)

Immortality: The dragon doesn't age.

Immunities: The dragon gains immunity to paralysis, sleep, and one energy type (or another kind of effect roughly as common).

Bite: The dragon has a bite primary weapon, with a base damage of 1d8 for a Medium dragon, plus 3/2 its Strength modifier.

Breath Weapon (Su): The dragon can emit a deadly breath weapon of the energy type to which it has immunity. As appropriate, it will either come out as a cone with short range, or a line which is twice that long and has a width of 5 feet plus 5 feet per ten class levels. The breath weapon deals 2d6 damage per character level, with a Constitution-based Reflex save for half. Once used, this breath weapon cannot be used again for 1d4+1 rounds.

Claws: At 2nd level, the dragon gains two claw secondary attacks, with a base damage of 1d6 for a Medium dragon, plus its Strength modifier.

Draconic Scales (Ex): At 2nd level, the dragon gains an enhancement bonus to natural armor equal to half its class level.

Draconic Strength (Ex): At 2nd level, the dragon gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength. This bonus increases by +2 every four levels after 2nd.

Draconic Toughness (Ex): At 3rd level, the dragon gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution. This bonus increases by +2 every eight levels after 3rd. Also, the dragon gains an extra 3 hit points per class level.

Flight (Ex): From 3rd level on, the dragon's wings grow enough to allow flight, giving it a fly speed equal to its land speed, with poor maneuverability for a Medium to Huge dragon; Small or smaller dragons have average maneuverability, and Gargantuan or larger dragons have clumsy maneuverability.

Bonus Feat: At 4th level and every five levels thereafter, the dragon gains a monstrous feat for which it meets the prerequisites.

Size Increase: At 5th level and every five levels thereafter, the dragon grows a size category, except its ability scores remain unchanged.

Sphere: At 6th level, the dragon gains basic access to a sphere (or upgrades access already had). Every six levels thereafter, the access to that sphere improves; if it is already expert, the dragon gains a monstrous feat instead.

Draconic Senses (Ex): From 7th level on, the dragon gains 60' darkvision and sees twice again as far in low-light conditions. Both benefits are cumulative with existing darkvision or low-light vision.

Strengthened Wings: From 7th level on, a landed dragon can make secondary natural attacks with both of its wings, with a base damage of 1d6 for a Medium dragon, plus the dragon's Strength modifier. Also, the dragon's fly speed doubles. Every four levels after 7th, the fly speed multiplier increases by 1.

Damage Reduction (Su): At 8th level, the dragon gains damage reduction equal to its class level, pierced by magic weapons.

Tail: At 8th level, the dragon gains a tail secondary weapon, with a base damage of 1d8 for a Medium dragon, plus 3/2 the dragon's Strength modifier. Also, the dragon can, as a standard action, sweep its tail over a half-circle of radius equal to its reach; all creatures three or more size categories smaller than the dragon are hit and take normal tail damage, with a Constitution-based Reflex save for half; also, they are each subject to either a bull rush or a trip attack.

Blindsense (Ex): At 11th level, the dragon gains 60' blindsense.

Spell Resistance: At 11th level, the dragon gains spell resistance equal to 5 + its character level.

Frightful Presence (Ex): A dragon of at least 13th level can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 15 feet per class level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Charisma-based Will save remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures become shaken for 4d6 rounds (frightened if have 6 fewer HD, or panicked if they have 11 fewer HD). This ability doesn't stack with itself (even if used by more than one creature). Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

Blindsight (Ex): At 16th level, the dragon gains 60' blindsight.

Crush (Ex): A dragon of at least 17th level can land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body, as long as they are all three or more size categories smaller than the dragon. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Constitution-based Reflex save or be pinned, automatically taking damage equal to a tail attack, without another save. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape. For all effects of the crush attack other than area covered, treat the dragon as one size category larger than normal.

---------------------
If we were to do follow the hint in the Dragon Lancer class, there's Metallic and Chromatic Paragons. I'm not sure what they'd get, though.