The Official "4e Critique and Rebuttal" Thread

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thatguy
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Post by thatguy »

Most of the complaints I'm reading here have little to do with the rules and more to do with the Dungeon Master's inability to properly act. I've read most of this and skimmed through some of the individual posts but forgive me if I'm redundant or misinterpret something.
1. Fragile system: play like the devs or break the game.
This has something to do with the 5 man party, correct? The game assumes you have a "balanced" 5 man team because the DM is assumed to construct "balanced" monster parties. All class or role based systems make this assumption. You're generally assumed to have a warriors to protect the casters and deal damage, a caster or utility character for diversity reasons, a dedicated character for healing, a charismatic or roguish character due to their wealth of skills, and another tank or ranged fighter to pick off enemies from afar.

I've never seen a class/role based system that circumvents the idea of a "balanced" team. If your players choose to be the same class or an unbalanced party based on the player handbook's recommendation, then it's the game master's job to modify the campaign to fit it. If your party consisted entirely of fighters then it would be completely unfair to have them fight wizards in large, open fields around every corner.

The people with a beef against 4E seem to forget that, like all RPGs, the rules are an abstraction. This doesn't mean that they're inherently broken, it means that it's ultimately up to the GM to modify what exists to keep things fun which is the most important factor in any game.

Now before you go on the WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT HOMEBREW!!!11 tangent, neither am I. Modifying encounters isn't homebrew, it's the GM's job. Altering things within the bounds of the written rules isn't homebrew. Now if I made all goblins have mechanical wings or changed the HP system to a wounds system then that'd be homebrew.
2. The Mongol dilemma--soldiers on horseback can defeat a number of the game's monsters by virtue of the monsters not having decent ranged attacks. (Related to World Fail.)
Again, the fault of the GM. In open terrain mounts have the advantage. The same is true for any fast creature. If all your characters fight in is flat, featureless terrain then you're a poor DM.

If you have trouble with fast creatures, then introduce controllers. That's the reason they're in the game. Abilities like slow and area attacks were designed to hinder fast creatures. Strikers and brutes will obvious have a tough time battling mounts but most soldier type monsters have hit-and-run attacks or methods of keeping players bound to them.
3. Giving a flying monster a bow breaks the game. (Related to World Fail.)
Like I said above, if every battlefield is flat, featureless terrain then you've already failed as a DM.

Besides, bows have ammunition and the range increment on a bow is within the bounds of most ranged attacks or spells. If the flying monster in question attacks out of range then all the players have to do is find cover (which is easy given the angle of the attacker), use total defense (and unless the monster of the same level as the player gets a lucky shot, they're not bound to hit often), or run away.

As far as monsters picking up a bow and using it, the DMG provides rules for base attacks for every monster. For example, a level 1 soldier is assumed to have a +6 to attack. If a level 1 soldier picks up a bow then simply allow the monster to attack with a +6 bonus and deal 1d8 + whatever modifier damage.
2. The entire economic system is a clusterfuck of not-sense-making. (Related to #1.)
I don't understand what's wrong with the economy as long as you follow the recommendations in the DMG. I read the post on the rust monster but there's a little block under it saying DM's should instantly put a stop to players who abuse the monster's powers.
3. Vastly dissociated mechanics: how do I describe what's going on in a way that makes sense? Too many powers cripple the ability to narrate a cohesive scene outside of a completely metagame interpretation.
Another failing on the DM. I've run plenty of 4E games and I've never had a problem explaining powers.

Daily powers require such an effort that your strength can only be mustered once before you rest.

Encounter powers require such a great expenditure of energy that you need a breather before doing them again.

In my games, Hp doesn't represent physical health but rather fatigue. Your healing surge limit is what I use to describe overall health. A person with 1 hit point and 8 out of 8 healing surges is perfectly fine. A character with 100 out of 120 hit points and 0 out of 8 healing surges is about to fucking kick the bucket.

It's a much more plausible system. Hp in video games has always been used as an abstraction and yet we are to believe a character at 1 hp with his head about to fall is magically healed to full with no visible wounds by a single spell? No, healing surges are a much better way to gauge health than Hp.

I don't know, I need a better example but the description of powers within the realms of fantasy rely on the DM.
4. Daily powers for non-casters. "I can only swing for 6[W] + Strength damage once per day!"
Daily powers replaced daily abilities from 3.5. There's little difference in the way they work. The powers are assumed to be so exceptional that you can only muster the energy once before you rest.
6. Healing surges; cartoon-character healing.
Healing surges were designed to replace the need for walking healing machines. A cleric no longer has to 'save' spells to spontaneously cast them before the party rests. If a character runs out of healing surges, which isn't implausible if they're fighting through three or four encounters at a time, then they're forced to retreat until the next day.

Yes, healing occurs instantly thus removing that long lull in 3.5 spent healing naturally. 4E is a game of high fantasy meaning a low fantasy game where healing is rare will require modifications to the existing ruleset.
1. A lack of diversity and interesting classes caused by the standardization of all powers and classes.
I don't agree with this at all. A sorcerer isn't the same as a barbarian, for example. They're both strikers, but a sorcerer focuses on range over melee. A sorcerer's spells are weaker but a barbarian leaves himself open. One may compare a ranger with a sorcerer but sorcerer spells are wild and can even strike their own party members.

I've played with several parties and none of them felt the same in combat or in roleplaying.
2. Classes based on mechanics rather than fluff + mechanics. (Stat combos are not classes. "Does damage" is not a class concept.)
I don't understand this either. A fighter is just that; a fighter. This has remained the same in all editions of DnD. 4E offers several paragon variants for each class, feats based on race, and variants based on race. No two people, without prior knowledge, could possibly build the same class.
3. Shoehorning the game into hackan 'n' slashan mode. (Related to Balance Fail and World Fail.)
Again, it's the DM's job to set the pace of the game. DnD has always been a game about combat. If you want a combat lite game, then give more experience for skill challenges or completing quests. If the players look for trouble then give them trouble. If they don't, then don't (within reason).
4. Elimination of iconic spells, class features, and whole classes in the name of balance--try playing an enchanter, summoner, or necromancer in Core 4e. Try playing a druid in Core 4e. Try playing a ranger with an animal companion in 4e. Try playing a witch with a familiar in 4e. Try playing a bard in Core 4e.
This I will agree with as I loved magic in 3E.

However, we're talking about 4E, remember? 4E assumes that no one can raise or control other creatures in the name of "balance." The game works fine without it. Rituals cover the utility effects spells once did such as teleportation or passing through walls. The new rule books also allow you to summon creatures and own familiars.
3. HP bloat resulting in grinding.
I don't understand this either. How do you grind in a tabletop game unless the DM allows it?
4. Skill challenges are completely broken.
I read the skill challenge topic.

Players don't have to contribute. Even better, if a player can find a way to give a bonus to another player then they can use that relative skill at no penalty to the failures of the particular skill challenge.

But I'll repeat myself, players don't have to participate. If five chefs are cooking a cake and one of them is only skilled at frying stake, that chef realistically doesn't have to help the others out, right?
5. Solo encounters suck--they're boring grindfests.
Again, I can't really agree with this because solo monsters embody every monster type. They can attack multiple times, they always have a ranged attack, they can disable players, and they have action points. If you find the combat boring, then it's up to the DM to introduce something unique like a trap or other monsters. If that means you have to lower the level of the solo monster to add in other challenges then so be it.
6. Ritual system is retarded.
The most subjective complaint. I preferred the old system of magic but rituals essentially replace the utility spells that wizards always kept 1 or 2 scrolls on "just in case."
7. Instead of eliminating the 15-minute workday, the devs put everyone on the 15-minute workday schedule.
First off, the "15 minute work day" doesn't work in 3E. Your powers recharge after 24 hours NOT eight hours of rest. Spellcasters require 8 hours to realign spells, but if you cast a level 3 spell and rest you're still down a 3rd level spell until you wait another 16 hours.

As far as 4E goes, you can't take an extended rest until 12 hours have passed. If players enter a dungeon, fight one encounter, and then leave to rest they'll have to wait until their powers recharge. In that time they could be attacked or something else happens. A game should never be in "time stop" mode where the world comes to a grinding halt while the players are adventuring. That's another failure on the DM's part. If the players wait around until they can rest, logically something is going to happen across them especially if they're waiting in a dungeon.

In effect, it makes more sense to press on until all of your resources are taxed then "expend all daily powers, run away and rest." If the DM allows players to cheat the system, then the DM should stop them. I certainly wouldn't allow a party to rest outside the dungeon unmolested.
8. Swathes of poorly-written and vaguely-worded mechanics.
I'd like to know exactly what doesn't make sense because I've yet to come across a mechanic that halted a game for longer than 5 minutes.
9. Everyone playing the same class is generally superior to everyone playing a different class.
I read this topic and it made no sense either.

The typical 5 man party assumes you've got a guy to draw attacks his way, a guy to dish high amounts of damage, a guy to control the battlefield, a guy to do the healing and help people fight, and a fifth member that can be any of the above four. A party of 5 rangers or 5 sorcerers ultimately won't survive if the DM creates encounters as recommended by the DMG.

----------

To make a long post short, a lot of the complaints I'm reading are the result of the DM not being able to adapt to the new rules. I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons since the original white box and each edition has required me to adapt my play style gradually. 4E is perhaps the most drastic of changes to the system but after a month of playing I haven't run into any problems when abiding by the rule books.

Any trappings you have with the system itself, I guarantee is the result that you aren't DM'ing it properly.
Last edited by thatguy on Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

I'm heading to bed so I'm not going to respond to the entirety of your post right now, but this sentence adequately summarizes your fail:
thatguymon wrote:Any trappings you have with the system itself, I guarantee is the result that you aren't DM'ing it properly.
DIGIVOLVE TO
Fail wrote:If you DM properly, then the system isn't broken.
DIGIVOLVE TO
Fuckwit wrote:It's your job as the DM to keep the system from breaking.
WARP DIGIVOLVE TO
Oberoni Fallacy wrote: The DM can change the system to keep it from breaking.
Last edited by Psychic Robot on Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by thatguy »

Congratulations on picking out a single sentence and claiming "victory." You fail in every aspect of arguing.

Change doesn't mean rewrite or homebrew. Change means modify. For example, a standard hobgoblin doesn't have a ranged attack. How do we rectify this? By looking the DMG for the base attack and damage of a monster of its type and level.

Bam, it now has a bow. You didn't "rewrite" anything or alter it dramatically. You gave an enemy without a ranged attack a ranged attack within the rules of the system.
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Post by NineInchNall »

Premises:
a) O's lack of attack type X is problematic.
b) DM can change the rules such that O has attack type X.

Conclusion:
c) O's lack of attack type X is not problematic.

Do you see how the conclusion contradicts one of the premises? Yeah. I thought so.
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot »

thatguy wrote:Congratulations on picking out a single sentence and claiming "victory." You fail in every aspect of arguing.
Psychic Robot wrote:I'm heading to bed so I'm not going to respond to the entirety of your post right now, but this sentence adequately summarizes your fail:
Okay, now I'm heading to bed, you steaming load of shit.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by Kaelik »

thatguy wrote:Congratulations on picking out a single sentence and claiming "victory." You fail in every aspect of arguing.

Change doesn't mean rewrite or homebrew. Change means modify. For example, a standard hobgoblin doesn't have a ranged attack. How do we rectify this? By looking the DMG for the base attack and damage of a monster of its type and level.

Bam, it now has a bow. You didn't "rewrite" anything or alter it dramatically. You gave an enemy without a ranged attack a ranged attack within the rules of the system.
Congratulations, you just:

1) Made the Hobgoblin more powerful. In fact, way more powerful.

2) Declared that Hobgoblins are a terrible monster and need as a necessity to be replaced with a homebrew upgraded hobgoblin.

3) Did the exact opposite of what the MM told you to do with Hobgoblins who pick up bows.

You fail at life.

Also:
thatguy wrote:his has something to do with the 5 man party, correct? The game assumes you have a "balanced" 5 man team because the DM is assumed to construct "balanced" monster parties. All class or role based systems make this assumption. You're generally assumed to have a warriors to protect the casters and deal damage, a caster or utility character for diversity reasons, a dedicated character for healing, a charismatic or roguish character due to their wealth of skills, and another tank or ranged fighter to pick off enemies from afar.

I've never seen a class/role based system that circumvents the idea of a "balanced" team. If your players choose to be the same class or an unbalanced party based on the player handbook's recommendation, then it's the game master's job to modify the campaign to fit it. If your party consisted entirely of fighters then it would be completely unfair to have them fight wizards in large, open fields around every corner.

The people with a beef against 4E seem to forget that, like all RPGs, the rules are an abstraction. This doesn't mean that they're inherently broken, it means that it's ultimately up to the GM to modify what exists to keep things fun which is the most important factor in any game.

Now before you go on the WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT HOMEBREW!!!11 tangent, neither am I. Modifying encounters isn't homebrew, it's the GM's job. Altering things within the bounds of the written rules isn't homebrew. Now if I made all goblins have mechanical wings or changed the HP system to a wounds system then that'd be homebrew.
Or to summarize: Blah Blah Blah, stuff not remotely related to the argument.

Here's the problem, you have a party of Fighter, Fighter, Fighter, Fighter, Warlord (Warblade? 3.5 equivalent).

Now why should you have a different party than this? In 3.5, the reason is easy. You will run into shit that makes you wish you had other classes. So 3.5 can tell you that you should have known to have a balanced party.

In 4e, why do you need a balanced party? It's not because you'll lose to anything ever. In fact, their is no reason, because you unbalanced party is so good you churn through everything ever. You literally destroy shit, and you look good doing it. You are a much better party than Wizard/Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Ranger.

Let me list the some of the best possible parties in 4e D&D.

Ranger Ranger Ranger Ranger Warlord
Cleric Cleric Cleric Cleric Warlord
Paladin Paladin Paladin Paladin Warlord (okay, not really, but it's better than any other party with Paladins in it)
Wizard Wizard Wizard Wizard Warlord.

Yes seriously. I would take any one of those over any party that had a balanced set up. That's what we are talking about.
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Post by thatguy »

1) Made the Hobgoblin more powerful. In fact, way more powerful.
Not in the least. Let's do the math.

Hobgoblin soldier = level 3 soldier. It's attack with a flail is +7 and it deals +4 damage so I'll assume that is the monster's base attack. It picks up a longbow and can now deal 1d10+4 on a range of 20/40 with a +7 bonus to attack.

Moving on to the hobgoblin archer which is a level 3 artillery. It has an attack of +9, deals 1d10+4, and grants allies within range a bonus on their next attack.

A level 3 encounter would give me 5 monsters to work with. 5 archers would crumble under the strikers and controllers; they have poor defenses and their ability requires them to be relatively close making them susceptible to area attacks.

5 soldiers would get taken down by more dedicated ranged attacks. They're capable of fighting well but with no special abilities at range they're at a disadvantage. They're also slower than archers making them susceptible to more mobile fighters.

So if I set up an encounter with 3 archers and 2 soldiers, I've now given them the advantage from afar. It's not difficult to cover 20 squares in two rounds and most characters can attack the next round if they double move or run. If the party advances, the archers would have to move away and the soldiers would have to drop their weapons to engage in melee.

In effect, the hobgoblin soldiers can make use of their new found power for maybe 2 rounds. This would only be a minor hindrance to a level 3 party.
Ranger Ranger Ranger Ranger Warlord
No ritual caster. Rangers don't have arcana or religion as a class skill meaning one of them will have to burn a feat for ritual caster, a feat for arcana, and a feat for religion. Even then, that person is now relied on entirely for religion and arcana based rituals.

Also, strikers do poorly against soldiers and controllers. They have generally low AC and can't do anything to defend themselves. A ranger with two-blade style lacks the AC of a true fighter making them useless in one-on-one fights with soldiers who have high AC to defend against ranged attacks. Because the ranger can't mark a target like a defender can, the enemy can simply move past them and freely attack the weaker warlord. If the warlord retreats out of range for his powers then you've effectively cut off the usefulness of having one in the first place.
Cleric Cleric Cleric Cleric Warlord
Again, you lack the diversity in ritual casting another party would have. Clerics have poor ranged attacks and don't deal much damage. You can potentially heal a butt load of times, but you're still expending actions better used for something else.

Leaders are weak against artillery and lurkers. Unless they fight in an enclosed space, they're in serious danger.
Wizard Wizard Wizard Wizard Warlord.
You still lack the diversity in ritual casting because of a lack of skills although you have to burn 1 less feat than a ranger x4 build. Wizards can't hold themselves at all in combat against artillery and skirmishers.
Yes seriously. I would take any one of those over any party that had a balanced set up. That's what we are talking about.
It sounds good on paper, but if the DM is designing poor encounters the fault is on his hands. The DMG gives you encounter templates for this reason.

A group of wizards are putty against a solo or wolf pack set up. A group of rangers would have their options cut in half when faced with a double line setup. A group of clerics couldn't stand against a commander and troops setup.

When dealing by the numbers these party setups sound great but this is assuming that all battlefields are the same, all monsters are susceptible to the party's strengths, and all creatures just happen to start within optimal range for their individual attacks.

Edit: Because I know someone will bring it up, developing unique encounters doesn't mean being an "asshole." An asshole DM would say "Every encounter is against a monster you're weak against and in the terrain you can't deal with." Variety is the most important aspect of any roleplaying game. There will be encounters your group can breeze through. There will be encounters where it looks like a TKO.

The DM is supposed to make things fun by spicing up the game. If you're throwing level 8 encounters at a level 2 party, you're an asshole. Likewise if every battle is exactly the same and is always setup to give the party the advantage, you're a terrible DM.
Last edited by thatguy on Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:48 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

thatguy wrote:
1) Made the Hobgoblin more powerful. In fact, way more powerful.
Not in the least. Let's do the math.

Hobgoblin soldier = level 3 soldier. It's attack with a flail is +7 and it deals +4 damage so I'll assume that is the monster's base attack. It picks up a longbow and can now deal 1d10+4 on a range of 20/40 with a +7 bonus to attack.

Moving on to the hobgoblin archer which is a level 3 artillery. It has an attack of +9, deals 1d10+4, and grants allies within range a bonus on their next attack.

A level 3 encounter would give me 5 monsters to work with. 5 archers would crumble under the strikers and controllers; they have poor defenses and their ability requires them to be relatively close making them susceptible to area attacks.

5 soldiers would get taken down by more dedicated ranged attacks. They're capable of fighting well but with no special abilities at range they're at a disadvantage.

So if I set up an encounter with 3 archers and 2 soldiers, I've now given them the advantage from afar. It's not difficult to cover 20 squares in two rounds and most characters can attack the next round if they double move or run. If the party advances, the archers would have to move away and the soldiers would have to drop their weapons to engage in melee.

In effect, the hobgoblin soldiers can make use of their new found power for maybe 2 rounds. This would only be a minor hindrance to a level 3 party.
Okay, now lets try some basic brain usage. It's a little advanced for someone of your diminished mental capacity, but let's try it anyway.

Which of the following is better:

A Wizard with five castings of Burning Hands.

A Wizard with five castings of burning hands and one of Detect Magic.

Congratulations, when you add something at zero cost, you make things better.

You also did nothing to deal with my other objections.

Also, as a completely separate point, you just assumed whatever the Hobgoblins bonus to damage and attack was is magically the right number. Now I want someone with a 4e DMG to actually open up the book and tell me what the real hypothetical solider bonus attack and damage is at level 3. Even money says it's better than the hobgoblin.

Now someone tell me what the 4e MM says the attack bonus of a Hobgoblin that picks up a bow should be. If you guess, "It says that a Hobgoblin Soldier who picks up a bow cannot use that bow at all." You are absolutely right.

I'm going to ignore your party claptrap because it's seriously 90% blah about how I won't have all the right rituals, which of course has no effect on anything since there is no such thing as a ritual you would even give up a feat to get, much less actually want badly enough to do pick a different class.

The other 10% consists of parroting some crap you read somewhere about how leaders and strikers are weak against X, which patently tells us you aren't paying attention, since Rangers have an AC 2 lower than a Fighter, and do slightly more damage than Tempest Fighter, and no one even cares which ones you are.
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Post by thatguy »

Okay, now lets try some basic brain usage. It's a little advanced for someone of your diminished mental capacity, but let's try it anyway.

Which of the following is better:

A Wizard with five castings of Burning Hands.

A Wizard with five castings of burning hands and one of Detect Magic.

Congratulations, when you add something at zero cost, you make things better.
It's amazing your only method of argument is calling people an idiot then referring to a situation that has nothing to do with the current discussion.

We're not discussing 0+1. We're discussing how a character with equipment it wasn't designed to use is (in your eyes) somehow better than a character with equipment it was designed to use. It's not.

Using your inane example, if we were talking about a wizard with 5 castings of burning hands vs. a wizard with 4 castings of burning hands and one casting of magic missile, we'd be on the same page. Burning hands is a close-range spell. Magic missile is a long range spell. Like the hobgoblin soldier with a bow, he's useful at range for a short period of time. Once the enemy closes in, he has to resort to using "burning hands."

Compare this to a wizard with 5 castings of magic missile. He's infinitely better at fighting at range than the caster with burning hands.

Do you understand it now or will you derail the point again to bring up something off topic to prove a point you forgot to make?
Also, as a completely separate point, you just assumed whatever the Hobgoblins bonus to damage and attack was is magically the right number. Now I want someone with a 4e DMG to actually open up the book and tell me what the real hypothetical solider bonus attack and damage is at level 3. Even money says it's better than the hobgoblin.
1st-3rd
Low: 1d6+3
Medium: 1d10+3
High: 2d6+3

A level 3 soldier is assumed to have a +10 to attack but you reduce it by 2 if there's a special ability attached to it or it hits more than one creature. I would count giving a monster an ability it otherwise shouldn't have to be "special" so it's effectively a +8.

DMG says a hobgoblin should have an attack of +8 and deal 1d10+3
Monster Manual says a hobgoblin has an attack of +7 and deals 1d10+4

You're trading damage for accuracy and the difference is negligible.
Now someone tell me what the 4e MM says the attack bonus of a Hobgoblin that picks up a bow should be. If you guess, "It says that a Hobgoblin Soldier who picks up a bow cannot use that bow at all." You are absolutely right.
The MM says nothing of the sort and the DMG has an entire section on modifying monsters. It's in the rule book. Why can't I use it?
I'm going to ignore your party claptrap because it's seriously 90% blah about how I won't have all the right rituals, which of course has no effect on anything since there is no such thing as a ritual you would even give up a feat to get, much less actually want badly enough to do pick a different class.
If you don't give up a feat to train in the skill required then you'll suck at casting the ritual. Your last defense assumes that you'll have no need of rituals which is an unrealistic assumption given the fact that rituals exist and are ingrained in the game world.
The other 10% consists of parroting some crap you read somewhere about how leaders and strikers are weak against X, which patently tells us you aren't paying attention, since Rangers have an AC 2 lower than a Fighter, and do slightly more damage than Tempest Fighter, and no one even cares which ones you are.
AC of a level 1 fighter with 10 in all attributes, scale mail, and a heavy shield is 19.

AC of a level 1 ranger with 10 in all attributes and hide armor has an AC of 13.

If you're going to argue about 4E then you can try playing it first.

Edit: The above setup is based on the default proficiency for the ranger and fighter. I'm adding this edit because it's clear you've never touched a 4E book and the entirety of your complaints are bandwagoning and echoes from what you've heard from other players.
Last edited by thatguy on Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Doom »

That's a pretty huge non sequitor there...or do you not even know that it's impossible for a DnD4.0 character to have a 10 in all attributes?

I'm thinking it's the latter, since you also clearly don't know that a 10 in all attributes precludes wearing the armor you specifically listed. Perhaps you should gain some familiarity with 4.0 yourself before even attempting to defend it?
Last edited by Doom on Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by thatguy »

Doom314 wrote:That's a pretty huge non sequitor there...or do you not even know that it's impossible for a DnD4.0 character to have a 10 in all attributes?

I'm thinking it's the latter, since you also clearly don't know that a 10 in all attributes precludes wearing the armor you specifically listed. Perhaps you should gain some familiarity with 4.0 yourself before even attempting to defend it?
Now you're being pedantic; a sign that you have no ground to stand on. No matter how you build them, a level 1 fighter will have a higher AC than a level 1 ranger assuming they're using their best default equipment. If you give a level 1 human ranger a 20 in dexterity then yes, his AC is 1 less than a fighter's in scale mail with a heavy shield, but you've also traded away the ranger's damage potential for melee weapons and survivability by losing out on defense bonuses and constitution.
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Post by Kaelik »

thatguy wrote:It's amazing your only method of argument is calling people an idiot then referring to a situation that has nothing to do with the current discussion.

We're not discussing 0+1. We're discussing how a character with equipment it wasn't designed to use is (in your eyes) somehow better than a character with equipment it was designed to use. It's not.

Using your inane example, if we were talking about a wizard with 5 castings of burning hands vs. a wizard with 4 castings of burning hands and one casting of magic missile, we'd be on the same page. Burning hands is a close-range spell. Magic missile is a long range spell. Like the hobgoblin soldier with a bow, he's useful at range for a short period of time. Once the enemy closes in, he has to resort to using "burning hands."

Compare this to a wizard with 5 castings of magic missile. He's infinitely better at fighting at range than the caster with burning hands.

Do you understand it now or will you derail the point again to bring up something off topic to prove a point you forgot to make?
You are insane. You are giving him a ranged attack in addition to his melee attacks. He is gaining a ranged attack, and he is losing absolutely nothing. This is not difficult to understand.
1st-3rd
Low: 1d6+3
Medium: 1d10+3
High: 2d6+3

A level 3 soldier is assumed to have a +10 to attack but you reduce it by 2 if there's a special ability attached to it or it hits more than one creature. I would count giving a monster an ability it otherwise shouldn't have to be "special" so it's effectively a +8.

DMG says a hobgoblin should have an attack of +8 and deal 1d10+3
Monster Manual says a hobgoblin has an attack of +7 and deals 1d10+4

You're trading damage for accuracy and the difference is negligible.
So in other words, you arbitrarily assign middle to him based on nothing at all, and you make use of the vague "special" classification to make it fit. How about this, a brand new attack is special, and a ranged attack is special, and so -4, he's also a low power. Or maybe a new basic attack isn't special, and so he's attacking at +10 for 2d6+3 damage from range.
The MM says nothing of the sort and the DMG has an entire section on modifying monsters. It's in the rule book. Why can't I use it?
Yes it fucking does. It says clearly that monsters do not have basic attacks that are not in their statblock. Suck it bitch.

Also, you can use your vague guidelines with a minimum of 6 possibilities. But I can also point out how you directly contradict the MM in doing so.
If you don't give up a feat to train in the skill required then you'll suck at casting the ritual. Your last defense assumes that you'll have no need of rituals which is an unrealistic assumption given the fact that rituals exist and are ingrained in the game world.
I don't fucking care about sucking at casting the ritual, I don't care if I can't cast any rituals at all.

You know what else exists and is ingrained in the game world? 3.5 Monks. You know how many times I've wanted one of those around? Never.

See, you don't need things that suck ass.
AC of a level 1 fighter with 10 in all attributes, scale mail, and a heavy shield is 19.

AC of a level 1 ranger with 10 in all attributes and hide armor has an AC of 13.
Wow, that's some powerful numbers. It's a good thing that Fighters don't have to focus on Str and Wis or Str and Con (and use two weapons or two handed Weapons, because Tempest Fighters and Polearm Fighters are better than you) while Rangers focus on some stat that adds to AC like Dex. Cause if that were true your bullshit 10 for every stat would be a disingenuous lie that proved you utter incompetence.

Oh wait. Haha. My bad.
If you're going to argue about 4E then you can try playing it first.

Edit: The above setup is based on the default proficiency for the ranger and fighter. I'm adding this edit because it's clear you've never touched a 4E book and the entirety of your complaints are bandwagoning and echoes from what you've heard from other players.
If you are going to try arguing about anything you should learn to math.

Edit: I'm not editing but putting this in an edit subheading just to mock you, because your arguments are so pathetic I'm not even getting the joy of a good discussion and have to settle for light mocking to get my jollies.
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Post by thatguy »

You are insane. You are giving him a ranged attack in addition to his melee attacks. He is gaining a ranged attack, and he is losing absolutely nothing. This is not difficult to understand.
He's losing his role as a soldier; to defend the squishies against attacks. That's more important in 4E than getting 1 or 2 extra hits in which can be easily recovered. By giving him a bow I'm effectively making him a gimped artillery, something that other monsters serve better.
So in other words, you arbitrarily assign middle to him based on nothing at all, and you make use of the vague "special" classification to make it fit. How about this, a brand new attack is special, and a ranged attack is special, and so -4, he's also a low power. Or maybe a new basic attack isn't special, and so he's attacking at +10 for 2d6+3 damage from range.
So you're admitting you haven't cracked open a 4E book? A longbow deals 1d10 damage. It makes sense to assign 1d10 to a longbow attack. I'm giving him a special attack he wasn't designed to use so I subtract 2 from it. Page 42 of the DMG even says that an unfavorable condition should apply a -2 penalty; using a weapon you're not proficient with sounds like a unfavorable condition, right?

Your logic is incomprehensible. The DMG says he should have a +8 to attack but the monsters lists it as a +7. I'm not breaking the game as you seem to be suggesting by letting the monster being less accurate while dealing more damage.
Yes it fucking does. It says clearly that monsters do not have basic attacks that are not in their statblock. Suck it bitch.
And the DMG gives you clear rules to customize monsters.

Suck it bitch.
I don't fucking care about sucking at casting the ritual, I don't care if I can't cast any rituals at all.
Then don't whine when you're presented a situation that could have been completed more efficiently with a ritual caster. Shoehorning yourself will do just that; limit the effectiveness of your party.
Wow, that's some powerful numbers. It's a good thing that Fighters don't have to focus on Str and Wis or Str and Con (and use two weapons or two handed Weapons, because Tempest Fighters and Polearm Fighters are better than you) while Rangers focus on some stat that adds to AC like Dex. Cause if that were true your bullshit 10 for every stat would be a disingenuous lie that proved you utter incompetence.
A fighter will always have a greater potential to higher AC and melee damage than a ranger. A ranger will always have a greater potential to have higher ranged attack.

You're not changing anything and you've already lost your argument.
Edit: I'm not editing but putting this in an edit subheading just to mock you, because your arguments are so pathetic I'm not even getting the joy of a good discussion and have to settle for light mocking to get my jollies.
You're not getting in a good discussion because you expect me to get mad by calling me names and goading me. You've already proven your incompetence with the system and now you're resorting to trolling to get your laughs.

I'm pretty much done with this board period. I came here from /tg/ to laugh at how stupidly insular everyone here is and they weren't wrong.
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

thatguy wrote: If your party consisted entirely of fighters then it would be completely unfair to have them fight wizards in large, open fields around every corner.
But that's part of the "play like the devs or break the game." In 4e, any encounter that ever takes place on a plain is broken because the devs assumed that all encounters would take place in a dungeon. If you want to play in the wilderness, the game breaks.
Kaelik wrote:Now someone tell me what the 4e MM says the attack bonus of a Hobgoblin that picks up a bow should be. If you guess, "It says that a Hobgoblin Soldier who picks up a bow cannot use that bow at all." You are absolutely right.
A Level 3 soldier's AB is supposed to be 3+ Level, which equals +10. There's a footnote that says you should reduce it by 2 for powers with multiple targets, but nothing about special abilites, much less defining range as a special ability. Damage should actually be 1d10+3.
The MM says nothing of the sort and the DMG has an entire section on modifying monsters. It's in the rule book. Why can't I use it?
You're right that the MM doesn't say that a Hobgoblin Soldier can't use a bow. However, those rules on modifying monsters only give you instructions on how to add magic items, not mundane ones. So you're left with the generic rules for monster powers in the DMG. I'll let PR and others deal with the specifics, since they've done all the really detailed analysis, but using those rules either overpowers or underpowers the monster, depending on which specific monster you do it with.
Your last defense assumes that you'll have no need of rituals which is an unrealistic assumption given the fact that rituals exist and are ingrained in the game world.
So rituals are necessary because the designers wrote them? And show me how anything's "ingrained in the game world." 4e pays virtually no attention to those parts of the world outside the dungeon.
AC of a level 1 fighter with 10 in all attributes, scale mail, and a heavy shield is 19.

AC of a level 1 ranger with 10 in all attributes and hide armor has an AC of 13.
Now let's try using stats characters might actually have.

The fighter can't add his Dex or Int modifier to AC when wearing scale mail and no reason to pump up those stats. Therefore, his AC from the scale mail is going to be +7, for a total of +17 at 1st level.

The ranger, OTOH, has powers that depend on Dex and knows he's limited to light armor, and thus has a reason to pump up Dex. So the ranger's going to have, at worst, a +2 stat modifier to Dex. Add the +3 from the hide armor and you get a +5 to AC for 15.

So in actual game conditions, the ranger has an AC at worst 2 lower than the fighter.
If you're going to argue about 4E then you can try playing it first.
Says the guy who's trying to use a theoretical stat array that doesn't exist in play to win an argument. That's hilarious.
Last edited by Absentminded_Wizard on Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Doom314's satirical 4e power wrote:Complete AnnihilationWar-metawarrior 1

An awesome bolt of multicolored light fires from your eyes and strikes your foe, disintegrating him into a fine dust in a nonmagical way.

At-will: Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon ("sword", range 10/20)
Target: One Creature
Attack: Con vs AC
Hit: [W] + Con, and the target is slowed.
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Post by FatR »

Gralamin wrote: Except you seem to be arguing that 3.5 is playable in such a way without being a disaster. In which case, any house rules mean you point at it and say "I need this house rule in order for it not to be a disaster." Attacking the weak points of an argument is just how one argues.
Banning two 9-th level spells isn't even a fucking houserule. Because you don't even fucking need to actually houserule anything if you play a homebrew or even Eberron - you can just say that said spells are unknown/unaccessible and 3-4 creatures that grant wishes do not exist in your cosmology. What you do is not "attacking weak points" it is nitpicking.

Moreover, practically no one plays RPG strictly by-the-book, anyway, because no one plays exactly as developers did. The question is, how much you need to houserule the game, to make it work for yourself. In my experience, you don't strictly need to houserule 3.X that much, only ban a half-dozen of well-known exploits, although you might want to, if your players hate reading too much supplements (or you might use the official option and allow non-primary-casters to gestalt). 4E? You need to rewrite most of the system, because the worst problems lie deeper, than in particular powers.
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Post by Kaelik »

thatguy wrote:He's losing his role as a soldier; to defend the squishies against attacks. That's more important in 4E than getting 1 or 2 extra hits in which can be easily recovered. By giving him a bow I'm effectively making him a gimped artillery, something that other monsters serve better.
He's not losing his role at all, because he never had it. If the enemy is using ranged attacks he loses nothing and gains ranged attacks, if the enemy closes, he drops his bow and does exactly what he would have done anyway. He loses fucking nothing.
So you're admitting you haven't cracked open a 4E book? A longbow deals 1d10 damage. It makes sense to assign 1d10 to a longbow attack. I'm giving him a special attack he wasn't designed to use so I subtract 2 from it. Page 42 of the DMG even says that an unfavorable condition should apply a -2 penalty; using a weapon you're not proficient with sounds like a unfavorable condition, right?
I'm admitting that I've never opened the 4e DMG, not that I don't know what rule the Oberoni Fallacy is one, because 4e apologetics spend more time fapping about page 42 than they do reading the actual PHB or MM, and it's why they (IE you) don't know any of the actual rules to your game, because you would rather pretend to make them up.
Your logic is incomprehensible. The DMG says he should have a +8 to attack but the monsters lists it as a +7. I'm not breaking the game as you seem to be suggesting by letting the monster being less accurate while dealing more damage.
No, the DMG says he should have a +10. Suck it Trabek. Oh wait, I'm sorry. What is +10 and not +8 because you lied like a lying sack of shit?

But whatever, because I never implied you were breaking the game, I implied the game is already broken, and you have to pick and choose between several mutually contradictory rules to find the one most balanced, and in your case, even make up ones that don't exist.
And the DMG gives you clear rules to customize monsters.
So two mutually contradictory rules that completely invalidate each other proves who's point exactly? Oh right. Mine.
Then don't whine when you're presented a situation that could have been completed more efficiently with a ritual caster. Shoehorning yourself will do just that; limit the effectiveness of your party.
I would never whine when presented with a situation that could have been completed more efficiently with a ritual caster, because such a situation never exists. Ever. At all. You are still missing the point even though I explained it clearly. "Unbalanced" parties are not better at some things and worse at others. They are better at everything.
A fighter will always have a greater potential to higher AC and melee damage than a ranger. A ranger will always have a greater potential to have higher ranged attack.

You're not changing anything and you've already lost your argument.
Wow, if only you were smart enough to follow an argument for two consecutive posts you would see the part where I said, "The Fighter has 2 higher AC and the Ranger does slightly more damage, and no one cares which one you are." In which I explained that the slight Fighter difference in AC is negligible and balanced against slightly decreased damage.

The fact that you argue 1d10+3 at +8 is just fine next to 1d10+4 at +7, but don't see that 6 more damage a round is comparable to 2 AC is a fucking joke.
You're not getting in a good discussion because you expect me to get mad by calling me names and goading me. You've already proven your incompetence with the system and now you're resorting to trolling to get your laughs.
No, I don't expect you to get mad, I expect you to be stupid, because in my experience it's pretty fucking rare to see someone who starts off by showing up somewhere and completely misunderstanding the arguments to magically become smart enough to understand them.

If maybe you had ever gathered that no one gives a fuck about your joke of a ritual, we might have made some progress.
I'm pretty much done with this board period. I came here from /tg/ to laugh at how stupidly insular everyone here is and they weren't wrong.
So in other words, "I was done with this board before I got here, but I came to troll, but now I'm leaving cause I look like an idiot for being an idiot. Oh but I'm just done with this place, yeah. Not running away. I'm so tired of my trolling. It's a lot of work."
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Draco_Argentum »

thatguy wrote:I'm pretty much done with this board period. I came here from /tg/ to laugh at how stupidly insular everyone here is and they weren't wrong.
So you came from one pack of loud mouthed asshats to another pack of loud mouthed asshats for some lulz. Not much point there, we don't like each other here anyway, adding you makes no difference.
He's losing his role as a soldier; to defend the squishies against attacks.
Stop right there. Thats a load of shit. How is gaining something and losing zero a loss of role. Even assuming role is meaningful for a second, how is being able to hang back with the squishes and plink for a few rounds until a melee starts a bad thing for a soldier?
Then don't whine when you're presented a situation that could have been completed more efficiently with a ritual caster.
This is too easy. Name such a situation, asshat. If you wanted to make a real case for 4e you'd be doing that. Instead you're just spewing unbacked assertions. Oh right, you came here for a lulz troll.


Conclusion, just like pissing in an ocean of piss theres no point coming here to try start a shouting match. We're a shouting match by default.
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Post by Roy »

Kaelik wrote:*stuff*
Not to mention he actually seems to think stuffing the weakest guys in the same group as the strongest is a step towards balance. Even after referencing materials that should indicate he knows better.
Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?
Juton wrote:Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.
Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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Post by Just another user »

thatguy wrote: Daily powers require such an effort that your strength can only be mustered once before you rest.
you mean mustered four times, right? you have four dailies, at least after a certain point), and for some reason you are too tired to use the power X but not to use power Y, how bizzare.
Encounter powers require such a great expenditure of energy that you need a breather before doing them again.
But you can still use another encounter power, even of an higher level, with no problems
In my games, Hp doesn't represent physical health but rather fatigue. Your healing surge limit is what I use to describe overall health. A person with 1 hit point and 8 out of 8 healing surges is perfectly fine. A character with 100 out of 120 hit points and 0 out of 8 healing surges is about to fucking kick the bucket.

It's a much more plausible system. Hp in video games has always been used as an abstraction and yet we are to believe a character at 1 hp with his head about to fall is magically healed to full with no visible wounds by a single spell? No, healing surges are a much better way to gauge health than Hp.
You hit the 100% fail in the moment you use videogames to defend your point.
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Post by MartinHarper »

thatguy wrote:Besides, bows have ammunition and the range increment on a bow is within the bounds of most ranged attacks or spells.
The increment doesn't matter. The maximum range matters.
Ammunition doesn't matter. Buy more arrows.
thatguy wrote:No matter how you build them, a level 1 fighter will have a higher AC than a level 1 ranger assuming they're using their best default equipment.
A well-built defender will have a better effective AC than a well-built melee striker by 2-3 points, assuming no relevant specials. Any more than that and either the defender has wasted too many resources on defence or the striker hasn't spent enough resources on defence. For ranged strikers you might have a difference of 3-5 points.
thatguy wrote:I read the post on the rust monster but there's a little block under it saying DM's should instantly put a stop to players who abuse the monster's powers.
That type of advice is precisely what some people don't like about 4e. I mean, I can live with it, but telling the DM to say no if players think of something clever is not a positive feature.
thatguy wrote:I need a better example but the description of powers within the realms of fantasy rely on the DM.
Though I disagree with them, the canonical examples in this forum are Come and Get It and non-lethal acid attacks.
thatguy wrote:Again, I can't really agree with this because solo monsters embody every monster type. They can attack multiple times, they always have a ranged attack, they can disable players, and they have action points.
Solo monsters can work, in theory. The execution has mostly been poor so far, as WotC admits.
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Post by violence in the media »

thatguy wrote:
2. The Mongol dilemma--soldiers on horseback can defeat a number of the game's monsters by virtue of the monsters not having decent ranged attacks. (Related to World Fail.)
Again, the fault of the GM. In open terrain mounts have the advantage. The same is true for any fast creature. If all your characters fight in is flat, featureless terrain then you're a poor DM.
3. Giving a flying monster a bow breaks the game. (Related to World Fail.)
Like I said above, if every battlefield is flat, featureless terrain then you've already failed as a DM.
I just wanted to address this particular point, because all this focus on the sole agency of the DM really irritates me.

As a player, it is my job to bend circumstances to my favor. Not to cheat, but if I'm incentivised to fight on an open plain or in a closet, then that's where I'll be doing most of my fighting if I can manage it. It is my job to take what the DM expects me to do and fuck it sideways in the ass. If I'm playing a Mongol, I'm going to do my damndest to turn every fight I can into one that is super advantageous to me, and the ones I can't turn, I'm going to try and avoid. How many wizards (that aren't built for it) seek to engage in grapples? Rather, how many of them try and avoid being grappled until they can tell grapplers to fuck right off via Freedom of Movement?

If the DM keeps attmpting to negate my Mongol advantage by trying to force my merry band of anachronistic asians into towers and dungeons, then we're going to peel off at every opportunity to hunt centaur and unicorns in the veldt. If some princesses and townsfolk go unsaved as a result, so be it. If the party set up to play a seafaring pirate band, you better believe that we expect a significant portion of that campaign to take place on a motherfucking boat.

Now, there is a double-standard (if you consider this such) at work here. That is, a player that forces the monsters into a no-win scenario is not a bad player; the DM that forces a player into a no-win scenario he has set up is a bad DM.

Tying this back to the 3e/4e discussion, in 3e I'm comfortable with the DM rolling with these scenarios because he has opponents at his disposal that can challenge us or, if he has to create them, we can see where a + b = c. He can use kraken, or hobgoblin archers, or hobgoblin archers riding kraken. We know that, in order to become credible threats to our mongols or pirates, that many opponents have to give up something in return or become higher level. You don't get to simply throw down +20 to hit because some 5th level character managed an AC of 30, you have to show your work. In short, you can feel that your characters know how the world works.

In the arbitrarium of 4e, the DM just assigns something and, if it still proves to be unchallenging, he just assigns more of it until it "feels" right. That's not a positive feature.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

FatR wrote: Banning two 9-th level spells isn't even a fucking houserule. Because you don't even fucking need to actually houserule anything if you play a homebrew or even Eberron - you can just say that said spells are unknown/unaccessible and 3-4 creatures that grant wishes do not exist in your cosmology. What you do is not "attacking weak points" it is nitpicking.
No that's a houserule. Because wizards can research any spell they want with their two free spells per level. You can make it so that scrolls of astral projection aren't sold if you want (for whatever reason), but you can't say that astral projection doesn't exist.

In my experience, you don't strictly need to houserule 3.X that much, only ban a half-dozen of well-known exploits, although you might want to, if your players hate reading too much supplements (or you might use the official option and allow non-primary-casters to gestalt). 4E? You need to rewrite most of the system, because the worst problems lie deeper, than in particular powers.
See this is more what we should be talking about in 4E versus 3E threads. Either way your'e going to house rule, buit which requires that you house rule more.
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Post by mean_liar »

thatguy wrote:I'm pretty much done with this board period. I came here from /tg/ to laugh at how stupidly insular everyone here is and they weren't wrong.
You trolled and got trolled in return? This is the big win?

...it does remind me that the board generally flames before it discourses. I wish it wouldn't, even with tired topics.
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Post by Kaelik »

mean_liar wrote:
thatguy wrote:I'm pretty much done with this board period. I came here from /tg/ to laugh at how stupidly insular everyone here is and they weren't wrong.
You trolled and got trolled in return? This is the big win?

...it does remind me that the board generally flames before it discourses. I wish it wouldn't, even with tired topics.
Not true at all. I discouraged for the first post with either thattroll and Gramalain. Flaming comes only after they get stupid(er) by telling me that I'm using Homebrew by using the Tomes by not using the Tomes.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

violence in the media wrote: Tying this back to the 3e/4e discussion, in 3e I'm comfortable with the DM rolling with these scenarios because he has opponents at his disposal that can challenge us or, if he has to create them, we can see where a + b = c. He can use kraken, or hobgoblin archers, or hobgoblin archers riding kraken. We know that, in order to become credible threats to our mongols or pirates, that many opponents have to give up something in return or become higher level. You don't get to simply throw down +20 to hit because some 5th level character managed an AC of 30, you have to show your work. In short, you can feel that your characters know how the world works.

In the arbitrarium of 4e, the DM just assigns something and, if it still proves to be unchallenging, he just assigns more of it until it "feels" right. That's not a positive feature.
I always felt the tax code of making NPCs and and monsters in 3.5 was really a big negative to the system, because it magnified adventure preparation work by a factor of at least 4.

I like the approach of 4E where you aren't especially concerned about dumpster diving to make monsters, you just make the monster you fucking want and get on with your life. You're more worried about "will this kill my party?" rather than "lets see, what splatbooks do I need to make a shaman/barbarian work?"

As a DM I just don't like to get bogged down in that tedium.
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