Oh, just for fun, I'll play a little.
AlexandraErin wrote:I play a dagger rogue in one game. The virtue of daggers is you can throw them. I use magical Distance Daggers for extra range. The "all magical throwing weapons are returning" mechanic really increases a rogue's versatility after the opening levels.
It's also a little goofy, and totally warps the gaming world. Why bother making multiples of weapons (even arrows), when it's so much cheaper just to enchant a single one? And like that, 'siege warfare' and many related concepts go right out the window.
A personal quibble, but things do get strained a bit when a player pulls Blinding Barrage on my table, throwing a single dagger half a dozen times, or more.
It lets me move around a lot, it means I can attack every turn even when I'm retreating, and this makes the Warden the "easy target" by comparison.
That it does, that moving around is plenty bizarre, especially the moving behind walls, then coming out a few seconds later to deal much extra damage (because my monsters have no memory, like in an MMO?) One of my players is using a shadow assassin, deliberately triggering opportunity attacks to deal damage to a horde of monsters as he runs by them.
It's neat, but it IS a little odd that he's holding a crossbow and dealing this kind of 30+ damage a round just by moving. I don't even understand what a 'wizard' of DnD4.0 is for, since he has nothing that any other class doesn't have in abundance.
Sly Flourish. At-Will with bonus Charisma damage on top of Dex. Weapon power, melee or ranged. Works with a thrown dagger as well as one in the hand.
How exactly does that charisma deal extra damage, exactly? It's the repeated slaps in the face like this that really do bug some folks. I know, you can give some puffball rationalization for it...but some folks to think words should have meaning.
If monsters chase me, they get hit with that every round, whether they catch me or not. They give up rounds where they can't hit anyone and/or trigger the Warden's powers and/or get opportunity attack to chase me, or they stick to the Warden.
It's a good theory; strangely at my table the rogues keep getting beatings, not sure why, although they both (two campaigns) operate that way. Heck, one of them has even in a Warden party.
Sure, I'm not doing my Sneak Attack damage every round this way, but there's a reason SA does more damage than Hunter's Quarry or Warlock's Curse. If an ally's power throws me a combat advantage, I can get it off a thrown dagger just as easily as I could from being in position. If not, I use it when I can get into a melee position with flanking.
Seriously, if you're not getting sneak attack nearly every round, you're doing it wrong. Using that semi-invisible dagger? Should carry one with you just for that purpose...then toss in the three or so relevant abilities that give you combat advantage.
Don't you play in combats with walls much? The whole 'duck behind the door' thing is pretty reliable, after all.
This strategy would fall apart if at the start of combat the DM said, "Look, I know your strategy and fuck you. Everybody dogpiles on the dagger girl until she's dead." And in fact, every once in a while... when fighting recurring foes, for instance... our tactics are being countered by the monsters.
Funny thing, my Expedition monsters (police robots) get a basic (i.e., candidate for opportunity) attack that targets fortitude.
And, just like that, the whole rogue character concept falls apart, at least for that battle. Heck, I wasn't even trying, just went off the rails over a single NAD. How was I to know that all opportunity attacks are only supposed to target AC...why should they, exactly?
And sometimes it needs to be adjusted because we're fighting in the proverbial closet. Sometimes it needs to be adjusted because we're fighting in a wide open field. I see the people on this forum responding to situational changes like that by going "Oh so the system assumes all fights happen in X." No, the system assume your DM is there for a reason and will provide varying scenarios.
Closets have walls, you can exploit stealth easy then. Open fields have kiting, not exactly a difficult to figure tactic.
And this doesn't mean that in all cases where our tactics work the DM is humoring us.
Wait a second: later on, you deal with the 'orb wizard' issue by completely warping the encounter beyond all sane measures of difficulty for him.
So, um, do you have a problem with the DM humoring the players, or not?
In our paragon tier campaigns, 6 to 10 is a little more typical, and we've had ones that go higher. But then we're infiltrating a fortress and our DM tends to have noisy fights trigger encounter cascades so it's more like "two or three encounters in a row". Same amount of rounds per encounter when divided up.
I don't know how you're slogging through these things so fast. A 6 round fight, really? Must be below your party level or something. Paragon fights are easily taking 12 rounds here, guess I can take down some stats and make sure, although 2 hours a fight seems about right (it's all I can to do squeeze 3 encounters in a 7 hour night, and that's when I'm extensively using rails).
The climactic battles she's set up... and she likes the Boss Battle model... are against foes that probably would TPK us if we're not careful or that would devolve into a boring grind if we didn't come up with a creative solution... some being "puzzle fights" where elements in the room can be used to defeat the boss once bloodied, and some being creative use of skills and roleplay...
Ooh, I'd love to see these boss monsters, there are only a couple MM creatures that are both 'level appropriate' and even remotely capable of a TPK (my froghemoth will do a potential 140 points of damage, I'm hoping to maybe take down one character with it...but we'll see). Back to the point, what boss monster deals TPK-type damage?
And even the boss fights are winnable by the numbers, with a careful party.
Would love to see those numbers, to get an idea of a level appropriate boss monster that can do TPKs in a winnable fight for the numbers, as you say.
I did a quick Google to find what people on other forums are saying about their experiences... it seems our group isn't some freakish anomaly that's playing it wrong. I'd link to the examples but I know how you guys feel about other forums... still, if most people are wrapping combat up in under 8 rounds and you guys are complaining about "Padded Sumo", maybe you should examine your assumptions about what the best approach to combat is.
Certainly, experiences vary, but TGD is hardly the only place where these issues have been noted, discussed, and demonstrated. It really seems like simple number crunching would reveal 'under 8 rounds' to not be typical, except at low levels.
I don't feel like sitting down to do it, but simple expectations of level 10 party damage output vs a typical AC/HP sum encounter should show something's not right about 8 rounds. For example, in order for a Chuul to be defeated in 8 rounds against a character with a 50% chance of hitting, he'll have to deal 28 points a hit on average, every round. Even considering dailies and encounters, that's a little steep for a 'basic' level 10 character, eh? Can you provide 5 distinct such characters, especially ones that aren't exploiting obvious loopholes (eg, orb wizard)?
Note, this is for a 'level appropriate' encounter, so burning every daily power here is being rather generous.
As an example: if you all open with your biggest attacks and you take a "focused fire" approach, you're going to get the Big Guy down to 0 faster... but until you get him down, you're still taking the same damage per round from everybody else. The assumption that Focused Fire grants an overwhelming advantage in this edition just doesn't bear out.
Interesting how you use tactics so very, very, poorly here. Is this truly your best understanding of how Focused Fire works?
But, perhaps I'm wrong. Can you discuss how dealing 90% damage to all the monsters first, before killing on them, would be superior in some way?
If people are looking for the opening in where they can use their powers to make the most immediate difference... oh, that guy's got to be within my daily attack power of being dead...
Wow, you can't be serious. Why would you wait like this, wasting potential bonus effects of a dailing power, wasting potential damage that could have killed the 'guy' a round, or two, earlier?
Tactics.
Minions can do as much damage as non-minion mooks by design
No they don't, not even close, past level 5 or so. And there are so many mass attack/autodamage options that using them past that point is just plain stupid, unless you go way, way, beyond the wonky guidelines of the DMG.
That's the other weird thing I keep running into when I read your threads: the bizarre notion that anything 4E doesn't cover is "forbidden". I've seen FrankTrollman say more than once that you're not "allowed" to touch corpses because they "don't exist".
Well, so much bizarre stuff works 'just because' (eg, charisma dealing bonus damage, Intelligence characters, even unconscious ones, still enhancing AC defense, acid attacks that deal subdual damage, etc, etc), that intelligent players are browbeaten into just not asking questions.
Frank's comment, I believe, is in regard to players not being able to touch the (theoretically) magical weapons and equipment the monsters use on them. Granted, 'old' Dungeons and Dragons had the annoying 'Drow' enchanted things that crumbled to dust in short order, but at least it made the effort of making some sort of sense.
Whatever. I'm not going to have the tactics argument with you guys because you're arguing that the sky is green and 2+2=7.
I don't believe I've seen anyone making any sort of such argument. You're ranting more than a little, and striking out in many different directions, but that's ok. I will, however, join my voice to those asking you to focus a bit on what you want to discuss in rational detail, and perhaps you should consider toning back the general blanket attacks.
People are out there playing the game right now and they're making Elven Battleragers work and they're playing mixed melee/ranged and they're wrapping combat up in under ten rounds without using "orbizards" or stacking as many damage exploits as they can.
Certainly, and there are folks on the Gleemax boards that think a TWF ranger with strength 8 is an AWESOME design (really wished I saved that thread), and I seem to recall some guy there bragging about how he singlehandedly wiped out an army of epic level half-dragons with epic gear (granted, he was his own DM).
But, rather than deal with such cases, let's just talk the mathematics involved. It's easier, and makes more sense.
your epic level orbizard against me sometime. You guys' strategy wouldn't show what advantage it does show...Orcus's lair...alliance with Tiamat...bunch of Chaos Hydras to fight for him?
Your rant is contradictory to your own claimed beliefs, and cranking up the challenge level by a factor of, what, 4, is hardly playing fair, eh?
Even if you've got mounted archers who can fly, what do you do when it's time to go down the stairs into the tunnels with low ceilings and fight monsters there?
Really, more to it than that, as that discussion is also a commentary on the goofy cover rules, and the goofy archery rules in general.
These things aren't examples of a broken system being fixed by the DM. It's just the way the game works... .
Yes, examples of a completely different game unrelated to Dungeons and Dragons, a 30 year old system with many flaws. Instead, it's a completely new system with many more flaws, in addition to many of the flaws of D&D, that tries to pass itself off as the same game, while not offering any of the advantages of a 30 year old system whose name it uses.
The system works just fine at giving the DM the tools that the DM needs to give the players challenges that they can struggle against. That's all the system can do. That's all it should do.
If this were true, why completely destroy the 'old' game as badwrongfun, in favor of this new thing?
Normally I'd say, "To each their own", but... your way of playing 4E doesn't produce an advantage in party survival or wrapping fights up and it doesn't make the game more fun even for you.
It's not so much a way of playing (although it is that, too), but a way of thinking. Why roll a d4 for damage when you can roll a d6 and everything else is the same? I respect your decision to roll a smaller die, but I find heeding the words of those who comprehend why the larger die is better more worthwhile.