Lol. (D&D 3.5 Secret Page)

[Aharon]

@Roy
That's why I mentioned the two spells I would use. Unfortunately, I didn't remember them right. While they work as a targeted dispel on each creature they effect, this isn't the case for their items.
I guess that just leaves lots of area dispels, until the wizard uses a Boccob's blessed book.
Have to think about another way, than. I'm sure there's a spell there that targets a creatures magic items besides disjunction.

@Zak
Sure, but that takes time. If, at 5th level, when the trick first becomes available, you want to copy your spellbook, you have about 14 spells to copy (leaving out the 0th level spells). That takes about 4 days for a focused specialist (1 base +1 specialist -1 base +2 specialist +1 Intelligence =4 3rd level spells/day), and longer for a higher level character (If he doesn't want to use higher level spell slots, in case the DM uses an ambush during downtime or something).
Depending on the amount of downtime available, this may be a problem.

But, as Roy noted, that doesn't matter anyway until I find a spell that targeted dispels items....

What does ER stand for?

[Roy]

Area Dispels don't hit items either. The only way you could effectively hit items is with a Chain Spell enhanced Dispel. And that's only if the item is exposed (the spellbook isn't). Chained Dispels do rape absolutely everything though, as they markedly decrease level appropriateness in one fell swoop, without screwing over the user hard like Game Disjunction does.

Also, I think he's talking about Explosive Runes. Which, playing into the original subject (90% of the best spells are core only) is a solid contender against Secret Page, simply because you could fill a book with them, throw the book, attempt to Dispel one rune and fail thereby making it explode... and all the others explode. Several hundred D6s, made in your downtime.

[Kaelik]

1) No, making seven copies of your book isn't a big deal. Like at all. You have down times. You have entire days spent in towns where you can do that stuff if you care. You need to be Town to leave one copy in the local Temple of Boccob, one in the Mages guild, one in a shadow hole someplace safe. Ect.

2) You aren't just looking for a spell that dispels items. You are looking for a spell that dispels items inside extra dimensional spaces. You put a secret page copy of your spellbook inside a hand Haversack. No spell in the game at all can touch it. I think Game Disjunction might, if it destroys your Haversack, cause it to be lost in Astral Space. But since you are a level17 Wizard, you 1) have like 13 copies you can teleport to at any given time. 2) make your saving throw for your items.

[Roy]

Using Game Disjunction on a haversack would make anything inside pop out. But really, you've just fucked yourself over so hard that even if you then kill the wizard, you're still much worse off.

[Aharon]

@Roy
Hm, ok then. Thanks for the discussion!

@Kaelik
Downtime:
Well, I guess that depends on your style of play. Most campaigns I played in till now didn't feature a lot of downtime - though I have to admit the DMs were inexperienced, as well as the players. Perhaps we just didn't get how important it is to have that time.

Extradimensional spaces
Don't they mesh badly with Rope Trick and similar Safe Rest spells creating extradimensional spaces?

[Kaelik]

Downtime:
Well, I guess that depends on your style of play. Most campaigns I played in till now didn't feature a lot of downtime - though I have to admit the DMs were inexperienced, as well as the players. Perhaps we just didn't get how important it is to have that time.

It's not important. It's just there. It happens. If you are playing a one shot or a module that only lasts a couple levels, that's one thing, but if you actually intend to level more than twice, you should be spending a large chunk of time selling loots, chewing the cud, getting some R&R, and looking for something new to do with your characters.

You can't play for many levels in a row without that happening.

Extradimensional spaces
Don't they mesh badly with Rope Trick and similar Safe Rest spells creating extradimensional spaces?

No. If you put a Portable Hole in a Bag of Holding, or vice versa, bad shit happens. No extradimensional spaces of any kind have any interaction with Rope Trick or other safe rest spells.

[violence in the media]

@Roy
Extradimensional spaces
Don't they mesh badly with Rope Trick and similar Safe Rest spells creating extradimensional spaces?

Hell, didn't the Sage once rule that you could open extradimensional spaces inside other extradimensional spaces, provided you didn't violate the Bag of Holding/Portable Hole sacred cow?

[Roy]

That's the only interaction that actually causes something bad to happen. The rest is some cryptic throwback to 1st edition, where the game was all about randomly fucking you over (and Rope Trick did nothing special anyways).

If the DM tries to set it up so you still get shanked like level 2 mooks, you just pop a teleport off first to return home.

[Cynic]

Look, here is rule -1. If the dm wants to shank you, shiv you, Cthonic-hump your dead ass to the tune of the Flute-playing-Planet-God. Then, you have subset choices as well

-1.3 - let him/her win one because it's not going to stop with your smart quip or extra trick. We all know this because we've seen the stupid dms. come on see "in the trenches."

-1.6 - Pack your dice bags and leave.

-1.9 - Warn them that you use this trick or that trick and make compromises.

(-.111111111 to infinity or -2-(-1.9) ) - Of course, we could try this. I give you all bon mots (exchange calendar of the day word) if it works. Explain the rules, and try to reason with the DM. If they are still reticent and want to KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL and kill your ass. tell them you could try to help them with monster strategies and stuff if they want. It's worked in the past with some and not with some.

--


The basic principle is if a person is completely bent upon a purpose such as taking your secret page out, they will do it. It's stupid but yes. It's like a western feud. Don't kill the man's brother just kiz he din kurled yer mammies mammy. yes he was a hair salonist. but you get the idea. :-)

Or not.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

A Kindle is a Secret Page Spellbook crafted on a page of gold/silver/platinum/anything-that-ain't-organic

You could always play the old 2e-style roulette game:

On the left side pocket is a Bag of Holding Type I containing:
1 - Your Kindle (Secret Page spellbook). Page 1 is optionally Explosive Runes.
2 - Your Explosive Runes page.

On your right side pocket is a Bag of Devouring (costs 0 gp in theory).

Swap them on occasion.

Now, there is a 50% chance of target-dispelling the correct bag. If the correct bag is target-dispelled, then it will dump the contents. There is then a 50% chance to target-dispel the correct Kindle (failure results in explosions!). Also, it is considered 'risky' to not start off with a dispel, because you could be eaten by a grue.



Also, you probably have LOTS of downtime if you care to use it (why not powergame?). Your stadard adventuring/travel day is 8-10 hours (wake at dawn, break camp after breakfast, setup camp before dinner, dine before nightfall), which leaves 12-14 hours before sleep kicks in, and 4-6 hours you account for sleep. Let's call it 4 hours/day not spent eat/sleeping/destroying or setting up camp. Spend 4 hours copying your spellbook each day. You copy 1/3 of a spell per day.

In town you spend about 4 hours each day active (whether this be a night adventure or a primetime trip to the bazaar), and you copy 1 spell/day into your duplicate spellbook.

You copy 14 spells (assuming you decide to start making backups at level 5, which is stupid) in about 5 days of town time and 9 adventuring days. You gain a level and 3 spells in this process. Your new 3 spells require 2 days in town and 3 days adventuring to copy. It has taken you one level (at level 5) to duplicate your book and move onto your second duplication.

[Lich-Loved]

No. If you put a Portable Hole in a Bag of Holding, or vice versa, bad shit happens. No extradimensional spaces of any kind have any interaction with Rope Trick or other safe rest spells.

This is an area I have always had an academic interest in. Here are the relevant sections of the d20SRD on extra dimensional spaces (all bold text mine):

The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space ... Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one

You conjure up an extradimensional dwelling...

In fact, each is like a bag of holding

The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space... If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in that place. Both the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process.

Spell / Spell Interaction
The Rope Trick spell is the only place in the RAW (of which I am aware) that talks about the general case of mixing extradimensional spaces. Using what is written in the Rope Trick and Mansion spells, it appears that the following leads to something "hazardous" happening:

• Creating a Rope Trick inside another Rope Trick or Mansion
• Creating a Mansion inside a Mansion or a Rope Trick

since both events "create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space". What exactly "hazardous" means is not defined, but taking the portable hole and bag of holding as a guide, a rift/gate opens to the Astral Plane. This seems pretty clear so far.

Item / Item Interaction

Examining the item interaction is easy; the item descriptions themselves describe what happens when the two interact, so there is no real mystery there.

Item / Spell Interaction

Now when it comes to items and these spell-created spaces interacting, the interesting thing is that the items use the phrase nondimensional space whereas the spells use the phrase extradimensional space. I can see two interpretations here. If you read "nondimensional" as meaning "extradimensional", then bringing either item into a spell-created space causes problems. If you read "nondimensional" strictly, then there is no interaction between the items and spells because there is no stated interaction between the terms "nondimensional" and "extradimensional".

In my game, I do not use the strict definition. I do this because if one reads the term "nondimensional space" strictly, then the only things capable of being stored in the bag are those that have a dimension of exactly 0. This is a logical contradiction based on how the item is supposed to function from the rest of its description, so I have ruled that the phrase "extradimensional space" was what was intended. Also, the Rope Trick spell mentions "or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one", which implies that there are or could be items that utilize extradimensional space that can be transported into an extradimensional space. As there are only two such items in the core rules, I assumed that these were the items of which the rule was speaking. This is of course a personal choice and a fair argument can be made to rule the other way.

I am unaware of whether or not the Sage clarified this or not. It would be good to see them change the wording away from "nondimensional" to something more meaningful (perhaps saying that the items opened into a dedicated and portable demiplane rather than any kind of "space") if the intent is to prevent the items and spells from interacting.

[Emerald]

The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space ... Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one

[...]

Spell / Spell Interaction
The Rope Trick spell is the only place in the RAW (of which I am aware) that talks about the general case of mixing extradimensional spaces.

There is no rules support for generic extradimensional space interactions except for the bag and hole; the rope trick text is simply a copy-paste from the 2e version; compare:

When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

Material Component: Powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment.

When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space. The spellcaster and up to seven others can climb up the rope and disappear into this place of safety where no creature can find them. The rope can be taken into the extradimensional space if fewer than eight persons have climbed it; otherwise, it simply stays hanging in the air (extremely strong creatures might be able to remove it, at the DM's option). Spells cannot be cast across the interdimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if there were a 3-foot x 5-foot window centered on the rope. The persons in the extradimensional space must climb down prior to the end of the spell, or they are dropped from the height at which they entered the extradimensional space. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. Note that the rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space. Also note that creating or taking extradimensional spaces into an existing extradimensional space is hazardous.

The material components of this spell are powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment.

This was pointed out in the 2e version because then there was a general interaction--many more items than just the two defined something bad that would happen based on what went in what, whether it's a tear in the planar fabric, a disjunction of the item, or simply having the extradimensionality suppressed, and DMs were specifically encouraged to make things blow up to avoid letting PCs rest too often or store too much. From what I can see, the note in the 3e version is an editing artifact, nothing more.

[JonSetanta]

Can't a magic bag involve non-Euclidean geometry rather than 'extradimensional' technology?

The universe might vomit in disgust when things go wrong, but it wouldn't involve "emptying contents in the astral" or whatever bullshit gimmicks grognards chuckle about in dark basements.

[virgil]

The definition on what the Astral has always been kinda hazy. I've heard it as both the realm of thought & the realm of non-space; when you want to mess with spatial dimensions in a non-Euclidean manner (inside > outside, point A = point B for teleport, etc), you're messing with the Astral.

The same sources generally place the Astral as the de facto destination for whenever reality is torn open (it being the between place, in a sense). Things are a bit wonky when you mess with 2E Planescape cosmology, because the Astral isn't accessible from the Ethereal or Elemental planes, implying that it's 'too concrete' for something abstract like the Astral.

[JonSetanta]

I figure that whenever dimensional or timespace-warping effects fail or get fucked up, there's a backlash. It's like removing an object from a pool of water and watching the fluid rush in to fill the new gap.

Everything and everyone in a certain region takes damage. The larger the region originally displaced, the larger the instant disruption and greater the damage.
No banishment effect. Nothing special.
Just backlash as timespace flows back to normal.

[virgil]

Just taking damage isn't Gygaxian enough. You need to pull out the techno-magi-babble chart to divine and describe their death for their hubris.

[JonSetanta]

"Make a save for each of your potions in the Bag."

...

"Oh? You failed two? They mix unpredictably! Roll on the mixed potions chart, cross-index table 25.1, check graph 3 on page 52, stand on your head and recite the alphabet backwards..."

[TavishArtair]

Can't a magic bag involve non-Euclidean geometry rather than 'extradimensional' technology?

A frickin' OVAL.

...

I'll get my coat.

[User]

In my game, I do not use the strict definition. I do this because if one reads the term "nondimensional space" strictly, then the only things capable of being stored in the bag are those that have a dimension of exactly 0.

It could also be taken to mean that within the bag objects do not have spatial relationships to one another (it's non-dimensional in the sense that there are no dimensions of spatial relationships in the bag, it's a space in the sense that things can be located within it). This would explain the bag's holding capacity.

[Lich-Loved]

It could also be taken to mean that within the bag objects do not have spatial relationships to one another (it's non-dimensional in the sense that there are no dimensions of spatial relationships in the bag, it's a space in the sense that things can be located within it). This would explain the bag's holding capacity.

True enough. Actually it could mean *anything* since as it is, "nondimensional" is effectively meaningless; it is a made-up word. You might as well say that the interior of the bag is "a froobles space allowing contents of a volume greater than its exterior appearance would suggest".

[Lich-Loved]

From what I can see, the note in the 3e version is an editing artifact, nothing more.

There are plenty of rules in the 3e SRD that are bizarre. Unless there was errata or a Sage clarification on it (and there vwery well could have been), then it is a leap to assume it was an editing artifact.

[Kaelik]

From what I can see, the note in the 3e version is an editing artifact, nothing more.

There are plenty of rules in the 3e SRD that are bizarre. Unless there was errata or a Sage clarification on it (and there vwery well could have been), then it is a leap to assume it was an editing artifact.

It's not a leap to assume that exact copy flavor text with no mechanical interaction with anything at all is artifact.

It's simple:

1) If there are hazards, they are outlined:

What is the Hazard for drowning? You go to 0 HP and then die in two rounds.

2) In 2e there are hazards, and they are explained.

3) In 3e, the same text is copied over, but no hazards are defined anywhere.

Therefore:

The text was copied over without correctly editing it, and there are no hazards because if there are hazards, they are defined.

Also, what is it with you and Sage clarification.

You are asking for the Sage to clarify whether or not bringing an X into a Y counts as bringing a Y into a Y, and what happens?

I could just say, "Well, unless the Sage has clarified it, A Barbarian is immortal, because everyone knows that Dragons are Immortal, and Barbarian might mean Dragon."

[Lich-Loved]

Therefore:

The text was copied over without correctly editing it, and there are no hazards because if there are hazards, they are defined.

If you are willing to admit that the text is present because of an editing mistake, then you also need to admit the editing mistake could be that the hazard was not defined as it should have been and material that should have been present was mistakenly edited out. It is impossible to tell what was omitted or included because the information as-is is incomplete.

Really, it is left to the reader to interpret. We can both see it how we want and neither of us be in the wrong.

You are asking for the Sage to clarify whether or not bringing an X into a Y counts as bringing a Y into a Y, and what happens?

No. I am wondering if any of the rules people clarified the inclusion of this text as either an editing artifact that should have been removed, or a missing definition of "hazardous" with the RAW being accurate as-is. Furthermore, I wonder if any of the rules writers clarified the term "nondimensional", since it is not currently an English word according to Websters. In fact, if you are a believer in the "editing mistake view", then the word "nondimensional" might also be an editing mistake. Had it instead been written as "extradimensional", then the information in Rope Trick would be clearly not an editing oversight.

[Kaelik]

Not all editing mistakes are equally likely, and it is either disingenuous or stupid to suggest they are.

"Oops, we forgot a table and never noticed."

Is a lot less likely than:

"See those two paragraphs that are nearly identical. Yeah, maybe that last sentence which meant something in the last game but doesn't mean anything any more was left in because the people who were in charge of copy pasting and changing spells weren't talking to the people who where in charge of writing the "Travel and Shit" section of the PHB."

[JonSetanta]

A frickin' OVAL.

Your definition is limited.
The application I'm applying here is "bent space", right angles existing in curved shapes that really shouldn't be possible in our 3D reality.
Bent enough, you get hyperbolic folds, which would make a larger (folded) region within a smaller shape theoretically possible.
.. but this does involve a level of technology greater than our own.

"It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit."