Lair Items: Worst idea ever.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:24 am

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090803

Interested in seeing probably the worst magic item ever printed?

Throne of Dominion
Level 12
This throne is carved with ornate filigree and reliefs showing a king ruling over subjects that span the chair’s entire surface.
Wondrous Item 13,000 gp
Property: While you sit on the throne, when a creature you can see attempts to deceive, disobey, or betray you, it is stunned (save ends). All creatures you can see take a –3 penalty to attack rolls that target your Will.
Power (Daily Charm): Standard Action. Make an attack: Ranged sight; Charisma + 5 vs. Will; on a hit, the target is dominated until the end of your next turn.

Wow. I mean, it's hard to believe, but they managed to make the magic item system even suckier than before. I mean, it completely breaks whatever weakass setting D&D has by preventing people from lying to or assassinating the king, it completely trashes any kind of encounter against a Big Bad, and worst of all it punishes a PC stupid enough to actually spend money on this bullfuck.

Lair items are a hideously awful idea. We went over this bullshit in 3E with the Stronghold Builder's Guide, which is the worst book printed for that edition. I am not fucking kidding at all. Using ANYTHING out of that fucking book instantly made your game suck more for no reason. It wasted time at the game table, it punished people for wanting a sense of accomplishment for their character, it broke the already-flimsy economy the game had, and WORST OF ALL it started putting price tags on game effects that were already free!

I mean, really, what the fuck? If someone wanted their fighter to have a goddamn castle them they fucking asked their cleric buddy to churn out the wall of stones and stone shapes while their rogue buddy played on a lyre of building. This book was completely and utterly useless.

So what's with 4E trying to recreate the trauma of the worst WotC sourcebook ever written?

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:30 am

What's really silly is that the door warden (which is bascally totally useless) and the throne are both the same level. The throne basically lets you stunlock everybody you want. Basically you just sit on it and keep yelling "HALT!" and everyone who disobeys you is insta-stunned. And since it's a property you can keep doing that as much as you want. That's one damn powerful chair.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:51 am

Tenser's floating disk ritual abusers just got a boost. And yipee! Now 4th ed has a way to cripple your character for fun and profit. Just what it needs, another way to fall right off of the RNG.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:55 am

May I direct you to the level 1 ritual, Tenser's Floating Disk. Lasts for 24 hours, costs 10gp, moves at your speed as you direct it, and will carry 500 pounds or more.

EDIT: Damn, someone beat me on mentioning it.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:48 am

So wait, the basic idea is "So a balancing factor for being powerful is that the players can't actually use it because they'd have to lug it around? BRILLIANT!" which was always a bad idea, and they still failed thanks to Floating Disc?

That is awesome, hilarious and bad. All at the same time.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:39 pm

Hm... "Attack my enemies!" - stops the heroes since they will disobey you and calls the guards in at the same time. Repeat until last hero is down.

How exactly do you beat that chair once it started?

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:40 pm

For Lewis Carrol fans.

Sit on the chair and order everyone to "Behave as though stunned!"

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:15 pm

I guess that "disobey" is intended to apply to those who have a duty (in whatever sense) to obey the sitter. Otherwise the -3 modifier is next to meaningless. Ho hum.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:18 pm

Akula wrote:Tenser's floating disk ritual abusers just got a boost. And yipee! Now 4th ed has a way to cripple your character for fun and profit. Just what it needs, another way to fall right off of the RNG.

That's priceless.

Yeah, there's no way possible that PCs could lug something heavy around, right?

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:23 pm

It seems that the 4e devs have such a hard on for movement that they don't see how there could possibly be any combat use in a stationary object.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:39 pm

Of course, what they fail to realize is that movement is pointless if everyone is doing it, and you're in a closet anyways. Murder Tango in no way detracts from the fact you're taking the auto attack + sandwich route.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:42 pm

Fuchs wrote:Hm... "Attack my enemies!" - stops the heroes since they will disobey you

That one is a bad idea.

You gotta remember, by 4e rules you count as your own enemy.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:08 pm

Look, I know that the throne is just one example out of many and it can be easily errata'd.

I just can't believe that they thought reprinting the prime element of the worst WotC-published book for 3rd Edition was a good idea.

I mean, really, what the hell?

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:42 pm

THIS was in 3rd? Damn.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:52 pm

Not that specific item, but the idea of trading stuff from your 'win at D&D' fund for you 'magic Teaparty' fund was totally in the Stronghold Builder's Guide.

The worst part is that strongholds used to be free until that book came along.

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:26 pm

Lago, there have been rules for building castles (with costs) at least as far back as the 1st ed DMG. See also: D&D expert & companion rules sets, Birthright, http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/CASTLE.ZIP etc etc etc.

There are people who are interested in doing this.

I'm not saying the magic chair above isn't a really bad idea, BTW.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:30 pm

I'm interested in making castles, too. I think it's cool.

I do not think that it's cool to put the screws to people who want to make castles.

Stronghold Builder's Guide was atrocious and offensive. It put price tags on things that used to be free and then told us that your Warrior King can't have a kickass castle. He can either have level-appropriate equipment or he can have sub-NPC equipment and a tiny wooden pallisade.

The Adventurer's Vault 2 is doing the same awful things all over again. So hell yeah that makes me angry.

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:40 pm

You could also pay a feat for castle-scale money that could only be spent on your castle.

Which actually wasn't a bad deal, considering how much feats sucked, and that you could then invest that money and get returns on it that you totally can spend on combat abilities, if the campaign has huge amounts of downtime. And if it doesn't, why and how do you have a castle?

Putting a price tag on wall of stone was horrible, though.

Also stealing castles and selling them became game-breaking. The big gold reward isn't the treasure in the dungeon, it's the dungeon itself.

Nihlin · Post by **Nihlin** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:29 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I'm interested in making castles, too. I think it's cool.

I do not think that it's cool to put the screws to people who want to make castles.

Stronghold Builder's Guide was atrocious and offensive. It put price tags on things that used to be free and then told us that your Warrior King can't have a kickass castle. He can either have level-appropriate equipment or he can have sub-NPC equipment and a tiny wooden pallisade.

The Adventurer's Vault 2 is doing the same awful things all over again. So hell yeah that makes me angry.

Or you could do what my DM did in a long-running Eberron campaign. Paraphrasing...

"You have the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook? Neat. Okay, you guys have [Big wad of cash] to make a flying tower or a mechwarrior or whatever. Have at it."

Or how about...

"Awesome! You killed the Demon Dragon of the Deepspawn Depths! In recognition of your heroism, the angelic council will build you a fortress worth $500,000. What's in it?" Then you hand them the book.

Putting pricetags on things lets you make something new within a defined set of options. Maybe it would have been better to create a new currency?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:22 am

And it wasn't fucking free: the DMG listed prices for fortifications, castles and so on. However it was just a fixed price and bare minimum description of what the residence vaguely is.

But it was totally there.

The main thing I didn't like was the bit where magic items are cheaper (and thus, more available to monsters) because they have the "weakness" of "PCs can't take them out and use them afterwards". It's the same kind of "Fuck you. Twice." that says "Monsters are Large, and PCs are not. Half Dragon grants the (Large) monsters flight, and the PCs can pay for this flight (that they don't get) with the higher Level Adjustment!"

Or the magic item discount for "Only (race other than the PCs) can use".

Or the special "Damage that means something, but only when used by monsters on PCs, because they're expected to survive the fight" (Vile Damage).

There's a whole bunch of these things. And this is why, when your DM uses them, you should abuse the few "Works well for PCs!" things. Like PW: Pain.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:42 am

Well, 'only (Race)' was in the PHB with 'only elf' and 'only orc' weapons.

The rest of those things were mostly really, really bad ideas.

-Crissa

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:02 am

Koumei wrote:The main thing I didn't like was the bit where magic items are cheaper (and thus, more available to monsters) because they have the "weakness" of "PCs can't take them out and use them afterwards".

It doesn't work like that in 4e. Monsters don't have a magic item budget, so the DM can't choose to spend that budget efficiently or inefficiently.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:10 pm

Doom314 wrote:Sit on the chair and order everyone to "Behave as though stunned!"

Josh_Kablack wrote:
Fuchs wrote:Hm... "Attack my enemies!" - stops the heroes since they will disobey you
That one is a bad idea.
You gotta remember, by 4e rules you count as your own enemy.

I detect win.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:40 pm

MartinHarper wrote: It doesn't work like that in 4e. Monsters don't have a magic item budget, so the DM can't choose to spend that budget efficiently or inefficiently.

I know, I'm thinking of what they did in 3E. This looks like something that the king randomly has, ignoring any actual rules, he just has it. And then, to spite the DM, the players kill the king when he says to attack his enemies, and they then steal it on a floating disc.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:40 pm

Orca wrote:Lago, there have been rules for building castles (with costs) at least as far back as the 1st ed DMG.

It's even worse than that, in 1E one actually spent real effort and time thinking about and designing (for clerics) a Holy Water Font, using the rules in the DMG. (Then you had to build a chapel to house the font, a castle to protect the chapel etc.) One of the forgotten things in 1E adventure design was that the purpose of adventuring in the first place was because retirement wasn't cheep. The Conan retirement model of someday being a king over a large empire with a cool throne etc was one of the biggest motivators in most 1E campaigns.