Pathfinder: the Lowdown

[Ganbare Gincun]

Non-spellcasters need to have some kind of supernatural abilities at their disposal in order to contribute meaningfully in a game where spellcasters are as powerful as they are in D&D. As it stands right now, non-spellcasters have difficulty getting to many monsters at higher levels, and their chances of defeating them in single combat is very slim indeed. I'm comfortable with the idea of Fighters flying around - or having other abilities - that will put them on even footing with spellcasters in terms of options.

[MGuy]

For flavor and fluff I'd prefer them to have extraordinary abilities. Batman is one of my favorite heroes BECAUSE his only superpower is being rich. Other than that he uses his natural extraordinary abilities and gadgets (minor magic) to keep up with the big guys. Hell even in your Saturday morning cartoons and anime you have heroes that are bad ass just from being extraordinarily strong, fast, precise, and durable. I don't want my fighters flying around unless they have a magic item that allows them to do so. However, I wouldn't mind them being able to leap hundreds of feet or sprint as fast as any horse just because they've trained their bodies to super human levels.

[Username17]

If Batman needs to be super rich and use minor magic items made by wizards to keep up with wizards, the game is broken. Because everyone gets the same amount of treasure. Indeed, since Wizards can make their own magic items at a discount, the default assumption is that wizards have more gadgets than Batman does.

So not only does Green Lantern get to be a lot more powerful, he also gets to have a better utility belt. That's not even remotely fair.

-Username17

[Korwin]

And I thought Batman is a Wizard

[MGuy]

Well I'd have to start by pointing out that he makes his own equipment first off and second that the fact that he's super rich kind of trumps the advantage a wizard would get for discount crafting. Additionally Green Lantern only has his ring that can do 1 billion things. But I don't want to derail the conversation by having us look over DC characters for balancing issues.

My point was that in most stories that involve characters who don't use magic as their main gimmick usually have superhuman physical characteristics that put them above normal humans. In eastern tales most legendary figures only had one maybe 2 items (this point was already mentioned before) but they had physical capabilities that were extraordinary. Like samurai who could fight blind, monks who could punch through rock, mongols who were said to be like beasts. This can all be produced through magic of course but it is definitely iconic of warriors to be like this instead of flinging around spells like a caster.

Now in the case of warriors needing magic to keep up with magic that seems incredibly reasonable especially if a warrior can pull off wins using minor items that are considerably weaker than a wizard's best or even mediocre spells. Even in the examples given, there is not one case where any hero who is going up against a arcane/technological/or even divine caster where he/she didn't need a helping hand that took the form of a power similar to the big bad's in order to even have a chance at beating them. And in those stories luck/deus ex machina has a lot to do with how the hero wins the day. If we're using status quo stories than every hero fighting without magic should get DM's assistance or well placed "Sword of Bad Guy Bumfuckery" in order to win the day. (Batman uses technology instead of superpowers, Conan always has the item he needs to clean house, Greek heroes always have legendary items to aid them in their travels)

In the end I just have to say that in any world where there is phlebotinum such as magic at work those who don't have it will need it at some point even in the best stories. In futuristic settings everyone needs to know how to work a computer, in modern settings you better pick up a gun, in high fantasy settings you're gonna need some magic. Its just how things are done. And if you want to make it so magic items don't really matter then you're gonna end up with something like 4e where everyone has similar abilities under different labels.

[Roy]

So basically, Batman = Artificer. Also, everyone is crazy rich. And it's already been established breaking WBL = win.

[MGuy]

I never said everyone should play the same character. That is taking what I said to the illogical extreme. I'm saying that if you're not gonna win any modern wars without picking up a gun.

[Murtak]

For flavor and fluff I'd prefer them to have extraordinary abilities. Batman is one of my favorite heroes BECAUSE his only superpower is being rich. Other than that he uses his natural extraordinary abilities and gadgets (minor magic) to keep up with the big guys. Hell even in your Saturday morning cartoons and anime you have heroes that are bad ass just from being extraordinarily strong, fast, precise, and durable. I don't want my fighters flying around unless they have a magic item that allows them to do so. However, I wouldn't mind them being able to leap hundreds of feet or sprint as fast as any horse just because they've trained their bodies to super human levels.

That is fine. I'm sure you can have fun games with those characters. You just can't play them next to DnD wizards without your "mundane superheros" looking extremely lame.

[Josh_Kablack]

Well if you think batman is what fighters should look like, then you should be giving fighters ability lists that look like This

Plus he totally flies around:

[Ganbare Gincun]

Well if you think batman is what fighters should look like, then you should be giving fighters ability lists that look like This

We already do. Non-spellcasting characters are heavily dependent on magical items in order to function at higher levels of game play. They NEED to have golf bags filled with magical weapons, rings of invisibility, and boots of flight in order to do anything at all.

Plus he totally flies around:

For non-spellcasters, replaced in D&D by Flying Cohorts and Magic Carpets. For spellcasters, replaced by several spells of 3th level and higher that take one round to cast - but why bother flying when you can Teleport and create Gates?

[Kaelik]

For non-spellcasters, replaced in D&D by Flying Cohorts and Magic Carpets. For spellcasters, replaced by several spells of 3th level and higher that take one round to cast - but why bother flying when you can Teleport and create Gates?

Well it's nice to have the destination of your teleport be in the air. Not to mention flight all day with perfect mobility is one hour per level spell away, aka past level 12 you can Frank cheat it.

[MGuy]

Fly for encounters that involve flying creatures.

Moving along I think we can get past the batman dynamic. It was an example of a non caster not THE subject of my argument.

@Murtak: What is and isn't lame is a matter of taste. I can't speak for everyone's taste so I can't say it wouldn't seem lame to some. My argument is more focused on the status quo both in the fiction and nonfiction. Despite a number of comments no one has clearly refuted most of what I've said.

1) That if we start handing out supernatural abilities that are on par casters, then every one will seem like a caster in a different skin. Which is what for balance sake they did in 4e.

2) That as it stands all examples of heroes in all works of fiction and non fiction have to adjust to the technology/phlebotinum that is around and that if they don't then there needs to be some deus ex machina that allows them to keep up with people who do use it.

3) That magic is the phlebotinum of the high fantasy world and that casters are tied to it. There is no logical way of having people who aren't tied to it keep up with people who are for the reasons I just mentioned. So the only way to even the field is to make everything even. This would take 1) bringing up every class and character choice you could make up to the same game breaking/I can do anything design of the caster, 2) stunting casters/game breakers in a way that made them equal to everyone else, or 3) resizing both so that everything is level.

Personally I don't like number 1 because that turns everything into mush at levels higher than 6. Everything becomes incoherent and inconsistent that any decent plot will suffer under the PC's ability to be able to do anything. honestly in practicing a number of the Tome options (giving them to PCS and monsters alike) I've found that a significant number of combats depend on which team goes first. I don't like number 2 because its hard for the other classes to work effectively against creatures at their CR and bringing down every class so that everyone will inevitably fail is a bad idea. I would really like to see option 3 happen but in a way that is better than what 4e did. I actually like the thought of every class being effective but I'm not willing to sacrifice the uniqueness of each class in order to achieve that equality. The 3rd option doesn't seem to be the focus of the board though (in that the other classes are boosted skyward with little to no effort put into shaving back caster capabilities).

For my own merit so that I'm not just bashing the system and thoughts of others without bringing my own into play. I personally think that a better way to balance the game would be to use different (and appropriate) creatures at each CR to determine approximately what characters should and shouldn't be capable of at any given level. I believe if we look over the pros and cons of each creature we can get an effective reading on how valuable some abilities are and what the balancing factors would be. And then we assign abilities to pc classes in accordance to what level similarly leveled creatures would have.

-Extra note: I have not developed such a system and I do not know each and every problem that might come up with using the mentioned method. It is just an idea I've had while thinking of balancing issues.

-Edit for example: Like fighters who take up improved grapple can have a fighter feat that enables them to get an attack grapple like a bear, and constrict like a snake. for fighters with bull rush they can get a knock back ability that isn't dependent on size or hell give them large build as part of their class abilities.

[Kaelik]

It's your problem that you can't think up a plot for 12th level characters. One not shared by many on this forum.

We pretty much just demand that fighters either not exist, or play with modified ones that actually do keep up with casters.

The answer is simple.

Fighters need to be able to jump a 200ft cavern, and jump 100ft into the air to land on the Dragon and kick it's ass.

This doesn't mean that everyone is a caster of a different type, it means everyone is awesome of a different type. Gilgamesh cut a mountain in half. Your fighter can jump up and throttle a Dragon, or burst through a wall of force, or whatever his thing is.

That doesn't mean that you can't still tell the difference between the guy who jumps up and throttles a dragon and the guy who floats everywhere without ever moving his feat and shoots eye lazors at the dragon from the cover of his six identical duplicates.

[MGuy]

You totally misunderstood/did not read what I said. I specifically said I don't mind fighters being able to jump 100ft in the air and land on a dime. I mind it if for some reason they start flying around because they gain supernatural abilities for no reason. As long as it fits the physical aspects of being a physical combatant I don't mind if the fucker is slam dunking mountains on golems.

Also I never said that I couldn't come up with plot I said it turns to shit if everyone in the party can do everything.

[Kaelik]

You totally misunderstood/did not read what I said. I specifically said I don't mind fighters being able to jump 100ft in the air and land on a dime. I mind it if for some reason they start flying around because they gain supernatural abilities for no reason. As long as it fits the physical aspects of being a physical combatant I don't mind if the fucker is slam dunking mountains on golems.

Also I never said that I couldn't come up with plot I said it turns to shit if everyone in the party can do everything.

1) It is a supernatural ability to jump 100ft in the air. Unless you mean actually (Su) ability, in which case: Awesome (Ex): Fighters can fly.

2) You said that everything goes to shit because everyone can do everything like casters in D&D. You specifically referred to raising fighters up to wizards as the cause of this, and you said it about the Tomes.

Therefore, you can't freaking make a plot for a Wizard/Druid/Tome Figher/True Fiend/Jester party. That's your failing. Not ours.

As an example, you think Tome combats end in the first round or are based on who goes first. You aren't playing right. Tomes make things more defensive, not more offensive. Tome combats take longer than an Ubercharger + MetaWizard of 300 guaranteed damage per round + Druidzilla + Roguination full attack.

[MGuy]

1)Supernatural ability=Transformation, gaze attacks, breath weapons etc
Extraordinary abilities= Pouncing, rake, immunity to magic, etc

So jumping 100ft would be an extraordinary ability, something I say is ok on non casting characters.

2) Once again I didn't say I couldn't do it I said it turns into shit. Additionally I didn't say how many rounds it would take but here the average seems to be 2-3 rounds IMO. You'd be the FIRST person I have heard on here make any claims that it goes on any longer than that. Honestly if you have a group of a Wizard/Druid/Tome Fighter/True Fiend exactly how many rounds beyond 3 are you gonna be spending per encounter? Have you seen a Tome Ubercharger? The kind of damage output it has? Tome doesn't take away any of the 2 round CoDzillas or Meta Wizards it gives other classes the ability to end a combat as quickly as the rest.

[Roy]

Ya know, as ironic as it is this seeming derailment is not that much off topic. After all, yet another flaw with PF is they don't get the whole point of being a dumbass mook at one point is to get past that, and try to waste time by making low level stuff such as diseases, poisons, and metal cages as a means of imprisonment last longer than they otherwise would. In other words, they cannot accept the game changes fundamentally every few levels and cannot accept you need 'magic' in order to deal with even basic stuff like trolls, much less dragons and the like.

[Kaelik]

1)Supernatural ability=Transformation, gaze attacks, breath weapons etc
Extraordinary abilities= Pouncing, rake, immunity to magic, etc

Supernatural abilities: immunity to magic.
Extraordinary abilities: Flight.

So jumping 100ft would be an extraordinary ability, something I say is ok on non casting characters.

So would flying.

2) Once again I didn't say I couldn't do it I said it turns into shit. Additionally I didn't say how many rounds it would take but here the average seems to be 2-3 rounds IMO. You'd be the FIRST person I have heard on here make any claims that it goes on any longer than that. Honestly if you have a group of a Wizard/Druid/Tome Fighter/True Fiend exactly how many rounds beyond 3 are you gonna be spending per encounter? Have you seen a Tome Ubercharger? The kind of damage output it has? Tome doesn't take away any of the 2 round CoDzillas or Meta Wizards it gives other classes the ability to end a combat as quickly as the rest.

If it turns into shit instead of a really fun game, you are doing it like shit, IE you can't do it.

Wizards and Clerics and Druid oh my already had defenses and counters and the ability to cat and mouse. Tome gives Fighter types defenses and counters. Yes it also allows them to output elevendy billion damage if they ever get to attack anything. But it mostly just makes them invulnerable fuckers of defensemanation.

I don't know what you think Foil is other than a defense. Or all good saves, or juggernaut or most of that stuff. That's the point. Having abilities to survive, negate attacks, or mobility their way around the battlefield is what makes characters awesome. It doesn't matter how much your Fighter Ubercharges for, he's not going to ever get a charge hit on an Abrupt Jaunt. Likewise, Wizards have to actually sort of worry about Fighters foiling their spells if they are too close, IE using their best spells.

[MGuy]

I am finding this derailment to be annoying. None of the stuff people are arguing with me about is about the points I was actually trying to make.

And correction (you should check up in your MM about it if you don't believe me)
Extraordinary: non magical ability. Immunity to magic is Ex ability. Flight is only an Ex ability if it comes via natural means IE wings

Flying would only be ok for me if the character in question ALREADY has wings or the NATURAL ability to fly. Otherwise physical classes that are without supernatural abilities or magic shouldn't be giving characters the ability to fly spontaneously.

2) A plot can be shit and still fun (case in point: Video games) What I referred to was not the subject of fun but the subject of plot.

3) you are turning this into some kind of argument over Tome which I don't have any big problems with. I am not gonna start arguing over the validity or fun even the balance of Tome because I don't particularly take issue with it. I will leave it at the fact that fights are only gonna last 2-3 rounds. I didn't say whether it was a good or bad thing just that it wasn't my style and that I'D PREFER that instead of all classes being ramped up to wizard level that they INSTEAD be evened out (casters being drawn back martial characters being toned up) into a middle ground that puts you roughly on the same footing as the monsters you face.

Let me repost my points so that they be clear for those who are not reading further than 1 post back to start an argument with me over something that was not my original point.

1) This whole thing started over the CMB vs CMD system in pathfinder and what to do about Fighters not being able to put giants in choke holds. Then it turned into whether or not heroes should depend somewhat on having magical abilities to get things done. I said no... no they shouldn't

2) My next point is that the answer to non magic characters being behind SHOULDN'T be to give the supernatural abilities or magical abilities to keep up but that we should give them extraordinary abilities to make them extraordinary in whatever field of bad assetry they want to specialize in.

3) Following the last point I explained that the reason we should do Ex instead of Su was because if we start handing out Su's the classes themselves would be no different then the casters that they are trying to compete with. I'd rather keep a fighter with various extraordinary abilities dependent on magic items to cover his ass then start throwing magic in the form of class abilities on the problem.

4) This led to me suggesting (for the sake of giving an alternative to the current systems) that we give non magical character's extraordinary abilities that are more based on the abilities that appropriately CRed monsters would have on the relevant level instead of depending on Wizard's lists.

Let me make this clear: A) I am NOT making a case against Tome and I will not respond to anymore attempts to get me to do so. In my opinion tome did right by me because the Fighter presented in it does not have any magical abilities that don't fit.

B) There IS a difference between Extraordinary and Supernatural abilities LOOK IT UP!

C) IF you're going to attack what I say attack the POINTS I'm actually trying to make instead of nit picking minor things included in my argument and trying to flesh them out as if they are my primary points: IE I'm not going to respond to any more batman and Tome=Hate or even fun vs plot shenanigans. none of these are my point at all.

[Kaelik]

And correction (you should check up in your MM about it if you don't believe me)
Extraordinary: non magical ability. Immunity to magic is Ex ability. Flight is only an Ex ability if it comes via natural means IE wings

Anything can be anything. You just have to rename it. There are lots of monsters that cast spells as an Ex ability.

It's a label, and that's my point. Jumping a 100ft is no more or less supernatural than flying through explosive farts. They are both impossible, and both require you to accept that Fighters get to do impossible things. The Su/Ex difference is entirely a function of what yyou name the ability, not what the ability actually does.

C) IF you're going to attack what I say attack the POINTS I'm actually trying to make instead of nit picking minor things included in my argument and trying to flesh them out as if they are my primary points: IE I'm not going to respond to any more batman and Tome=Hate or even fun vs plot shenanigans. none of these are my point at all.

I'm going to keep arguing the points you make that I feel are relevant. If you want me to not argue against your assertion that the game is shit when people can teleport and fly, then don't make the assertion that the game is shit when people can teleport and fly.

[MGuy]

So somehow the definitions of the labels are supposed to be ignored? oooo k... You're going to ignore the points I'm actually trying to make and spend your time changing parts of what I say into things I did not say and then make them into arguments? Here's a tip... read what I actually put instead of self editing it for yourself and then posting the edited version. I would say that you're somehow hearing only what you want to hear but seeing as though its all in text I am forced to believe that you're actually transforming the words I typed down into something else.

[ubernoob]

So somehow the definitions of the labels are supposed to be ignored? oooo k... You're going to ignore the points I'm actually trying to make and spend your time changing parts of what I say into things I did not say and then make them into arguments? Here's a tip... read what I actually put instead of self editing it for yourself and then posting the edited version. I would say that you're somehow hearing only what you want to hear but seeing as though its all in text I am forced to believe that you're actually transforming the words I typed down into something else.

Having people do stuff that is beyond the human range is supernatural (in the dictionary definition). Supernatural as the D&D tag is just a choice of the designer of wether they want it shut down by AMFs or not. In either case, you have to give noncasting classes Awesome Abilities(TM) to have them keep up with Awesome Spellcasting(TM). What tag you put on them doesn't actually matter.

[MGuy]

God Damnit... Please read further than 1 post back before responding. I have given not only a distinct definition for both terms so that there is no confusion about what I mean by them but I have supplied examples of what exactly I mean by them and why they are different. They both are in the player's handbook for those who want to dive deeper into it and I mean to use both labels more than just for the sake of it.

[Kaelik]

So somehow the definitions of the labels are supposed to be ignored? oooo k...

You are the one ignoring the actual definition of supernatural in favor of calling whatever you want supernatural.

If you had a class ability: Infinite Farts(Ex): You fart constantly, expelling gas that allows you to fly with a speed twice your land speed with poor maneuverability.

That would be an Ex ability in D&D, because it's not "magic" it's merely doing something supernatural (IE physically impossible) with your body.

You're going to ignore the points I'm actually trying to make and spend your time changing parts of what I say into things I did not say and then make them into arguments? Here's a tip... read what I actually put instead of self editing it for yourself and then posting the edited version. I would say that you're somehow hearing only what you want to hear but seeing as though its all in text I am forced to believe that you're actually transforming the words I typed down into something else.

No, I'm going to keep taking the stupid things you actually said and calling you on them, and you are going to keep denying you said what you said, because what you said is retarded.

1) That if we start handing out supernatural abilities that are on par casters, then every one will seem like a caster in a different skin.

...

1) bringing up every class and character choice you could make up to the same game breaking/I can do anything design of the caster

...

I don't like number 1 because that turns everything into mush at levels higher than 6. Everything becomes incoherent and inconsistent that any decent plot will suffer under the PC's ability to be able to do anything.

Yes, you really are saying that you can't design a good plot in a game with casters. Yes, that really is your problem and not everyones.

Yes you really should just play a game designed for the low power you want to play or are capable of designing plots for. Meanwhile, people who play D&D can keep designing plots that still work in a world of Contact Other Plane + Teleport.

[Username17]

Mguy has a thread in the Invention forum dedicated to his warrior classes that can't have nice things. They don't have nice things, as expected. Basically, it's the only possibly end result from his incredibly bad methodology.

If you define things that are sufficiently awesome as being [Blue] and you also define some characters as being able to have powers that are [Blue] and other characters are similarly defined as being unable to have any [Blue] powers, then the characters who can't will eventually be insufficiently awesome as characters accumulate more powers. And the point where they won't be awesome enough will be precisely the point at which the "You have to be this tall to ride this ride" bar hits the arbitrary limit that you won't let abilities that aren't [Blue] go past. And you ca substitute nanotech or psionics or magic for the arbitrary [Blue] tag depending on what your setting is and who isn't allowed to have nice things.

But yeah, Mguy is making the same tired argument that he's been making and that we've seen a hundred times before: that somehow it's OK for characters to be segregated into one group who are allowed to have abilities that are more awesome than arbitrary point X and another group whose abilities are restricted from being better than arbitrary point X. And yeah, there's a lot of obfuscatory hand waving about realism or human limits that really just confuses the issue by making it unclear what arbitrary point X actually is. But in the abstract sense it really doesn't fucking matter. If "gaining a level" is supposed to have any meaning, and yet there are arbitrary limits that some characters can pass that other characters cannot pass, then obviously the game falls apart the very instant you gain enough levels that you should be passing the point where that arbitrary limit is. No matter what the limit actually is.

Mguy's methodology is bullshit. Not because he's plugging in numbers that are bad, not because his definition of this or that is arguable, but because a priori he is making demands upon character ability accumulation which by definition cannot be balanced.

So honestly, why are we still talking about Mguy's incredibly shitty ideas?

-Username17