What do you see when you look at TGD?

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:05 am

ubernoob wrote:I'd go with a simple "Peter". Mostly because I love Ender's Game more than I should.

Oh, let's just skip straight to Nazis then!!! Jesus fuck don't compare a decent novel to this travesty

Sock Puppet · Post by **Sock Puppet** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:18 am

Okay, then. YOUR MOM IS A NAZI. There, are you happy now?

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:54 am

Sock Puppet wrote:For all his faults and strengths, it cannot be denied that Psychic Robo was both a button-pusher and a rabble-rouser. But I never pegged him as an idiot

You know, first time I saw PR at WotC forums, and I thought he was an ok guy. Sure, everyone called him a troll, but I thought he was saying things to piss people off with insignificant things.

Still, when you see that he does not make any sort of intelligent argument about anything, even when he tries talking seriously, you realize that he's incapable of doing so.

And when you look his "work" and posts here, you get more and more of that vibe of a kid trying to look smart in front of adults and get their recognition: he says all they're saying, but misses the point.

Not really a kind of person whose posts you'd read to find something interesting.

Absentminded_Wizard · Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:09 pm

MGuy wrote:I think people could stand to be a bit more accepting of people who just like 4e or whatever for their own reasons.

It would help if 4e fans weren't, by and large, incoherent people. I'm pretty sure all three reasonable 4e fans in the world already post at the Den. The outsiders who come here to defend 4e don't like 4e for specific reasons that they can articulate. Rather, they think 4e slices, dices, makes julienne fries, and cures cancer. Presumably because Mike Mearls says so.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:37 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Is this thread going to become a cry corner for people mad that their ideas aren't liked?

But it’s true. No one likes my idea of arranging polka music in four part a cappella barbershop harmony. No one. Come to think of it, not even me.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:01 pm

sigma999 wrote:
ubernoob wrote:I'd go with a simple "Peter". Mostly because I love Ender's Game more than I should.
Oh, let's just skip straight to Nazis then!!! Jesus fuck don't compare a decent novel to this travesty

That novel is the book that got me to start reading. It's totally like a childhood keepsake for me. What don't you like about it (not the sequels; only the Bean ones didn't suck ass)?

Sock Puppet · Post by **Sock Puppet** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:18 pm

How about we combine topics? Hitler and Ender in one handy essay.

And another essay related to the first, but more thought-out and less accusatory. This is the same link as the one in the second paragraph of the introduction to the above.

Sock Puppet · Post by **Sock Puppet** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:35 pm

Okay, kind of off-topic here (or is it?) but I've been accused of being a troll a few times now. Mostly by Roy, for what it's worth. Is this because I have an opinion which differs from the consensus opinion, and I don't always express it politely? Seems unlikely. Is an accusation of trolling an implication that I'm only saying shit that I don't really even mean just to piss people off? What exactly is the definition of a "troll" (besides, y'know, usually evil CR5 Giant with regeneration)?

How about different kinds of trolls (Internet or otherwise)? What if I was a War Troll? That's serve you right, wouldn't it? Of course, I'm probably just a 1st Edition Fiend Folio Ice Troll, when it comes down to it. Or maybe one of those spooky ones - Shadow Troll? Mist Troll? - that I believe are a product of the union with a troll and an invisible stalker. What is it with trolls getting all the hot interspecies action, anyway?

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:44 pm

Interesting take on Ender and Hitler. However I have to note that Ender unlike Hitler really had no attachment to what he was doing. He didn't know when he played the "games" that he was actually killing anyone. Nor did he make claims or speeches that excused his behavior. He did what he needed to do to survive. Any attempt to live peacefully was ruined by outside influences (and by human nature). Hitler on the other hand oversaw everything he was doing. He knew who he was killing, that they were being killed, and demanded more of it. Equating him to Ender with the flimsy claim that killing because they both killed a different people because they thought it was right would be the same as saying anyone who kills a different person because they thought it was right = Hitler. I disagree with that notion.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:03 pm

ubernoob wrote:What don't you like about it (not the sequels; only the Bean ones didn't suck ass)?

Space Brazilians.
But that's in the sequels, so doesn't count.
There's a scene in the first where Ender does naked soapy wrestling in the locker room, which is a tad gay, but all in all I have no problems with it.

My childhood first was Red Planet. My dad read it to me halfway and told me to try and finish it myself, which greatly encouraged me to do so, yet did require use of a dictionary some times. I was 6.
From there I read every Asimov and Bradbury in the local library, then Clarke, then Card's Ender (the rest came later in high school).
This was all before age 10.
If I had known about the Conan series back then I would have read that too.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:43 pm

Sock Puppet wrote:How about we combine topics? Hitler and Ender in one handy essay.

And another essay related to the first, but more thought-out and less accusatory. This is the same link as the one in the second paragraph of the introduction to the above.

Read the first article. I'll read the second one in a bit. Quite fascinating, really. Really, really interesting.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:23 pm

Someone on this forum posted the first link a while back. Can't remember who. I read the first article and found the similarities interesting, but could shove it away and enjoy the cognitive dissonance. But reading the second, it shows me precisely how OSC has been manipulating me and how contradictory and stupid it is. And it pisses me off, and will probably ruin it for me.

Urgh, thinking back to Ender's Shadow, he does the same things with Bean. The same bastardy things to make us support him.

Fuck you Orson Scott Card.

And fuck you Sock Puppet for pointing that second article out and leading me to read it and be educated

. I liked my fantasy world where Ender was innocent and not a "killer" because he was bred to be perfect.

Sock Puppet · Post by **Sock Puppet** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:32 pm

Honestly, I know exactly how you feel. I used to be a huge fan of Card, which lead me to read lots of his stuff and find out more about the author himself. And then I got into all of this; now I'm not sure if I can stomach reading him ever again. I still think Ender's Game is a modern marvel of fucking fantastic storytelling, granted. But now I'm a little suspicious of what the underlying message might be.

I have bonded a few times with an older friend of my mother's because she was such a huge fan of Ender's Game and the sequels, and we could chat about them as intellectuals. She is also a semi-Orthodox Jew. It was a difficult decision, because I know she would find these essays absolutely fascinating and have good, intelligent points to make about them. But I decided against it, because I didn't want to ruin it for her.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:35 am

Anyone read his latest piece of shit, Empire? It has a lot of eerie similarities in its manipulation. Only it is more obvious about it. I guess Card is losing his touch.

Seriously though, a lot of science fiction authors are right wing nutjobs and that comes through in their works. You have to turn your brain off to enjoy them, otherwise they are just offensive.

Sock Puppet · Post by **Sock Puppet** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:45 am

It's interesting you should say that. I've been reading a lot of Heinlein lately, and trying to piece together what his political axe to grind must be. The best I can come up with is that he believes in some sort of idealist libertarian paradise, where everything would just be roses and puppies if The Man would simply back off and let everyone do whatever the hell they pleased. Now, if you want to get into his ideas about gender politics/sexual roles, that's a whole other, far more complicated discussion...

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:08 am

Sock Puppet wrote: I've been accused of being a troll a few times now.

To be fair, you entered in PR's huffy drama-leave thread, with the name Sock Puppet. That wasn't the brightest thing to do if you're trying... basically anything other than trolling.

Also, holy shit, Eevee is small. I randomly bought one of those pokeballs with minis in it, and it has Eevee (8-9mm tall), Espeon (~25mm tall) and Umbreon (ditto). I'd measure them properly with a ruler, except my dog recently found this fantastic new stick to chew on: it's all smooth and sanded down, and thin and long so it snaps up easily when chewed on. And it was just lying in my room, possibly on a table, so it must have been for him!

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:51 am

Koumei wrote: Also, holy shit, Eevee is small. I randomly bought one of those pokeballs with minis in it, and it has Eevee (8-9mm tall), Espeon (~25mm tall) and Umbreon (ditto). I'd measure them properly with a ruler, except my dog recently found this fantastic new stick to chew on: it's all smooth and sanded down, and thin and long so it snaps up easily when chewed on. And it was just lying in my room, possibly on a table, so it must have been for him!

Where??? We have NONE for sale in stores ANYWHERE.
I'd have to mail order goddamnit.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:58 am

Hahaha.

I live 5 minutes walking distance from a shopping centre - a pretty big one, that also houses the biggest cinema complex in the Southern Hemisphere. This shopping centre is all of two stories tall! Oooooooh!

So it has about 3 places that primarily sell video games and paraphernalia. One of them has about three different generations/series of the Pokeballs. I was hoping for a Sneasel or Buizel, but beggars can't be choosers. I also have the 2Gen Fire starter trio that look like weasels set on fire, an the 4Gen BATTLETOADS (Croagunk/Toxicroak).

I found they make good presents for my youngest sister, too.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:18 am

Sock Puppet wrote:It's interesting you should say that. I've been reading a lot of Heinlein lately, and trying to piece together what his political axe to grind must be. The best I can come up with is that he believes in some sort of idealist libertarian paradise, where everything would just be roses and puppies if The Man would simply back off and let everyone do whatever the hell they pleased. Now, if you want to get into his ideas about gender politics/sexual roles, that's a whole other, far more complicated discussion...

I haven't read all of his stuff. In fact, since I'm pretty sure you're referring to 'Stranger in a Strange Land' I can only go by what I've heard. But from what I have read, especially 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress' I can say that I think you are essentially right. His conception of merit and citizenship are the most objectionable things about his work though. That is all Starship Troopers, which I haven't read in ages.

I gotta say, Have Spacesuit Will Travel is the work I've read that I enjoyed the most. The "Government sucks, man!" is present. But really not until the late second act, and the first part has little to no political daggers if I remember correctly.

Modern Sci-Fi writers tend to be, if anything, more heavy-handed in their message.

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:38 am

Starship Troopers has whole chapters of the main character saying that he now understands all these rants by Heinlein's mouthpieces. That's pretty heavy handed.

erik · Post by **erik** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:27 pm

Ehhh, yeah. Heinlen has been the most politically heavy handed sci-fi writer that I have ever read. It goes so far as to break the fourth wall when I read most any of his books.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Us,_Th ... of_Customs

That book is pretty much the foundation of his beliefs/propaganda that he attempted to work into all his novels.

I still enjoy a lot of his stuff, but there are times when I must roll my eyes and drive past the preachy bits. Likewise I enjoy some of Orson Scott Card's books (Ender's Game and the Bean parralaxes, specifically) and I that enjoyment is not spoiled by his misguided attempt at arguing for intent-based morality.

Lich-Loved · Post by **Lich-Loved** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:35 pm

Just dropping in to say that PR is smarter than some of you believe he is. I have no idea if Sock Puppet is PR or not, but I would not discount it.

Flame on.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:11 pm

Well, I refuse to pick up his books because he's chosen to abuse his trust as I made the case for in this thread.

-Crissa

Sock Puppet · Post by **Sock Puppet** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:03 am

Okay, so we all seem to be in agreement that sci-fi is frequently used as a thinly-veiled vehicle for a particular author's personal, philosophical, or political agendas. Nothing new there. Let me toss out another one:

P Kindred Dick

I've read, well, lots of his stuff in the past few years (no small amount of it while high), but I still have yet to be able to fathom a single, cohesive design philosophy. Except, maybe:

Drugs are fun, up until they make you go bonkers and the universe falls apart.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:50 am

Sock Puppet wrote:Drugs are fun, up until they make you go bonkers and the universe falls apart.

This intrigues me.

The Gaming Den

What do you see when you look at TGD?

Trollin'

Re: Trollin'

Re: Trollin'