News that makes us laugh, cry, or both

[Prak]

The "most influential modern art work of all time" has been named. (what so soon?)

I will now allow you to all place your guesses.

done?

It's a signed urinal

As an artist myself, I'm thoroughly offended. Even "Piss Christ" required some effort in that the "artist" had to piss in a jar and put a crucifix in it. This "artist" merely signed the damned thing and said "here you go."

As a lazy fuck, I'm awestruck, and inspired to slap some piece of shit together, call it art, bullshit some line about it's "deeper meaning" and wait for my million dollars.

Please do not disparage the Dadaist movement in my presence.

First, I don't need to disparage the dadaist movement, it does just fine on it's own, second, I'll disparage whatever movement I want, especially when said movement has all the meaning of a bowel movement.

[Ganbare Gincun]

I was mostly talking about the primaries and everything around them. That being said, it’s hard to debate a snake oil salesman. They complain about everything, promise the moon and do it all in a very entertaining style. McCain was out classed, out maneuvered, and in generally every way out gunned.

Who is the "snake-oil salesman" that you are referring to in this statement?

I am, however, still mad as hell that JC Watts was virtually in hiding for all of 2008. He probably knew that we would have drafted him to the nomination in a heartbeat. We will never know how an Obama / Watts debate would have turned out.

J.C. Watts phased himself out of politics once the G.O.P. began to punish him for not following the party line closely enough. He founded a lobbying and consulting firm called J. C. Watts Companies in 2003.

And during the last election, he considered voting for Barack Obama. As per the article:

J.C. Watts, a former Oklahoma congressman who once was part of the Republican House leadership, said he is thinking of voting for Obama. Watts said he is still a Republican, but he criticizes his party for neglecting the black community. Black Republicans, he said, have to concede that while they might not agree with Democrats on issues, at least that party reaches out to them.

"And Obama highlights that even more," Watts said, adding that he expects Obama to take on issues such as poverty and urban policy. "Republicans often seem indifferent to those things."

I know it's not a big of a "betrayal" as when Colin Powell said that he would vote for Obama, but I realize this probably still comes as a shock. Take a few deep breaths. Think of Condoleezza Rice or Ice Cube or something.

Anyways, J.C. Watts is right: Republicans ARE indifferent to those things. And then they complain about people that are affected by poverty and urban policy not voting for them. Entitled much?

[Maxus]

This made me both laugh and cry:

MSNBC is, well, a lot more tolerable to me than Fox News. At least it's actually funny during the times I'm around it. Even if it is just as biased...

Fun points of what I saw tonight:

1) Remember Schiava...Shiavo...whatever, back in 2005? Of course you don't. Point is, One Terri...S-something was, well, the center of a big debate on Euthanasia and living wills, which had Republican Congressmen, many of the same ones now preaching against government involvement in living wills/end-of-life-planning, stepping in and saying 'Yes, we know better than you about whether your wife should live or die, Mr. Shiavo'.

2) Sara Palin, Newt Gingrich, AND Rush Limbaugh have all gone on the record supporting living wills, end-of-life planning (under a myriad of terms. Palin even had a day declared some kind of Health Care day, the text of the declaration even encouraged people to go and look into--you guessed it--living wills).

3) And by now I was crying on the inside because it really sunk in that the Republican party changes their message repeatedly and their supporters don't catch on. They, in all likelihood, COUNT on that.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Billionaire Cannibals Murder 22,000 Americans Every Year

[Crissa]

Mostly, crying. It's so hard to watch news not just say 'I'm sorry, you are wrong.'

-Crissa

[tzor]

Who is the "snake-oil salesman" that you are referring to in this statement?

President Barack Hussein Obama II

All that "hope" and "change" was snake oil and nothing more. (You know I really have to appologize to any real snake-oil samesmen out there, becasue I think I just insulted you.) He told the people what they wanted to hear, not what he was actually going to do. It's a standard policy in Chicago, but he managed to hoodwink a majority of the nation into buying his snake oil.

[Koumei]

Because in America, politicians never lie and election speeches are truth you could take to the bank, amirite?

Seriously, we laugh in Australia every time people express shock that their government lied to them, because we assume every word is a lie. And "There will be Change, hail Tzeench!" sounds a lot better than "At least I won't fuck it up as badly as this guy will and the last/current guy did".

[Count Arioch the 28th]

The "most influential modern art work of all time" has been named. (what so soon?)

I will now allow you to all place your guesses.

done?

It's a signed urinal

As an artist myself, I'm thoroughly offended. Even "Piss Christ" required some effort in that the "artist" had to piss in a jar and put a crucifix in it. This "artist" merely signed the damned thing and said "here you go."

As a lazy fuck, I'm awestruck, and inspired to slap some piece of shit together, call it art, bullshit some line about it's "deeper meaning" and wait for my million dollars.

Please do not disparage the Dadaist movement in my presence.

First, I don't need to disparage the dadaist movement, it does just fine on it's own, second, I'll disparage whatever movement I want, especially when said movement has all the meaning of a bowel movement.

You missed the point entirely. Art isn't about following your "rules" and crap, it's about expression. And if someone's expression takes the piss out of someone else's pretensions, even better.

[MGuy]

Mostly, crying. It's so hard to watch news not just say 'I'm sorry, you are wrong.'

-Crissa

Hilarious.

[PhoneLobster]

Seriously, we laugh in Australia every time people express shock that their government lied to them

We may do that.

But then John Howard was finally ousted largely because his own supporters felt he tricked and betrayed them on work choices.

He would have lost it earlier on the "Never ever" GST if the democrats hadn't stupidly taken the fall by going back on their word on blocking it and had their entire political party disintegrate largely as a result of that.

There is a certain degree of noncommittal sweet talking the public tolerates. A certain degree of flexibility with election promises once a party enters power. But there are limits.

I suspect Obama is pushing those a little with his choices on bailouts and government secrecy. But his supporters would (probably rightly) forgive him that and more in a second if he can get an even mildly good health care reform through.

Which is why the evil Republican's are trying to block it at all costs. They are on public record saying this. No matter how many people DIE because of it they can NEVER let the democrats do ANYTHING for American health care. Because it would prove just too big of a PR loss for the Republicans.

Oh yeah, and of course Tzor's "I'll call him spooky muslim name Obama" snake oil accusations are wildly unbalanced compared to Republican policies and everything about McCain and the frothing loony Alaskan. (and the name thing + he's a liar thing plays into his loony "Birther" street cred) But did that even need saying?

[Prak]

You missed the point entirely. Art isn't about following your "rules" and crap, it's about expression. And if someone's expression takes the piss out of someone else's pretensions, even better.

by being overly pretentious oneself?

ok, seriously, I was looking for a dadaist "poem" to put up as an example, but this is a nice example all on it's own.

this:

Shattered wall
Today I asked
Myself why
She didn't hang herself

Lia, blond lia
She would have swung
From a rope at night
Like a ripe pear

And dogs in the street
Would have barked
And people gathered
To gape

And they'd have yelled
"Take care she doesn't fall."
I would have nailed
The lock to the door

I'd have set a ladder
And taken her down
Like a ripe pear
Like a dead girl
And put her in a nice bed.

also came up, but that can't be Dada, it actually has a narrative and makes sense...

I wish I had a clue where the handouts from my Post Modern Lit class were, I'd post the "poem" the teacher handed out as an example of Dadaism.

I can somewhat understand the whole "life is meaningless, let's comment on that meaninglessness by making something without meaning" but personally, for commentary on the meaninglessness and pretension of life, I much prefer Post-modenism, since, you know, it actually has a narrative and real thought put into it. It also tends to be incredibly irreverent, which is a plus for me...

But dadaism? And the piece of shit that was named "the most influential piece of modern art?" no. That is not art, that is someone exercising their skill in bullshit. He literally:
Step 1: Acquire Urinal
Step 2: Sign Urinal
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit!

and Step 3 seems to be "take advantage of the dimwitted public's 'emperor's new clothes' instinct."

I'm still not certain if that urinal is more or less insulting to art than when people use their literal shit as paint.

There's a difference between art and evoking a statement.

This:

is art.

This, while not my personal taste;

is art.

This,

makes a statement.

Quite different, but not necessarily mutually exclusive.

This:

is both.

as is this:

If you can't see the statement, try looking at the smaller version that google shows as a preview.

this:

isn't inherently art... though it does make a statement.

and... alright, I'll admit that it does technically fulfill the first definition of art:

Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
1. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
2. The study of these activities.
3. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.

Though, usually, art is supposed to be beautiful, at least in a "beauty is truth, truth is beauty" sense. The problem is, the urinal in question holds neither beauty, nor truth. Though with that critique, a lot of illustration needs to also be tossed out, including pretty much anything I've done. So, to be honest, I'm... willing to not care about the truth and beauty issue of art... which I suppose means I almost have to accept the urinal as a form of art. I definitely wouldn't say it's the most influential piece of modern art of all time though...

Edit (now that my post is working): protip: if you want lots of bizarre pictures to wonder about, google image search "controversial art"

Also, Count, you're right, it's not about "my rules," it's about the rules established by centuries of classic artists. Even Picasso is, I personally think, spinning in his fucking grave. Dali is probably trying to dig his way out of his grave so he can murder the urinal signer (possibly with melting watches and flaming giraffes). Art has rules. And yes, these rules can be broken, sometimes to very great effect, but you have to know and understand the rules first.

[Sock Puppet]

I'll admit I know jack about modern art. So if you'd, uh, use small words in your explanation, I'd appreciate it. My question is this:

What do you see as the difference between this toilet as modern art and, say, Warhol's soup can as modern art?

[zeruslord]

The dadaists were before the surrealists, actually. I will agree that that isn't really art.

[Prak]

I'll admit I know jack about modern art. So if you'd, uh, use small words in your explanation, I'd appreciate it. My question is this:

What do you see as the difference between this toilet as modern art and, say, Warhol's soup can as modern art?

Warhal's soup can required creativity, effort, and an eye for, as well as a talent, for making complex statements in simple ways, even if the statement is somewhat hidden.

[Koumei]

I think anything described as Post-Modern is worthless, and people who ike to throw the term "post-modern" around need a violent punch to the throat.

And surrealist art is largely crap, so if that's going to count, then let dadaist stuff count so as to make fun of it.

I draw stuff I want to draw. Things I like. There is no inherent meaning other than "I like breasts" or "This room needed brightening with more colour" or possibly "Giant robots are completely awesome". I see no point to most modern art, so I approve of anything that takes the piss.

[PhoneLobster]

Back when art was doing the whole "What can we define as art?" experiments that sort of stuff was all fairly valid (if rather dismissive of the artistic skills and creative rights of urinal design engineers).

But the experiments are complete, the results are in, the answer to the question was "Basically anything."

The correct response to that should have been a movement that recognizes since basically anything is art we should try and make basically everything into attractive good art.

But the professional art world instead largely preferred to use it's new found art defining power for evil instead of good and just continued to run around calling any old crap art so they could con fools into buying it to fund their extensive collections of modern money.

It sucks. Instead of everything in my house being art anything in my house could be art. That isn't the same at all. Potential art is so unrewarding.

[Draco_Argentum]

It sucks. Instead of everything in my house being art anything in my house could be art. That isn't the same at all. Potential art is so unrewarding.

That was extraordinarily well put. The definition of art as 'whatever I can sell to a dipshit' really fucking sucks.

[Prak]

It sucks. Instead of everything in my house being art anything in my house could be art. That isn't the same at all. Potential art is so unrewarding.

That was extraordinarily well put. The definition of art as 'whatever I can sell to a dipshit' really fucking sucks.

yep, yep it does. Unfortunately, that's all the public is willing to support, because "Oh it has a meaning! *parrot back bullshit spewed by conmen*" makes the public feel smart, where as "it's pretty" makes them feel dumb.

[PhoneLobster]

Unfortunately, that's all the public is willing to support

Who said anything about the public? This is a clique thing not a public thing. The public likes pretty things, like they should.

[Prak]

Unfortunately, that's all the public is willing to support

Who said anything about the public? This is a clique thing not a public thing. The public likes pretty things, like they should.

hmm, maybe I'm too cynical about the common person...

[Absentminded_Wizard]

This made me both laugh and cry:

MSNBC is, well, a lot more tolerable to me than Fox News. At least it's actually funny during the times I'm around it. Even if it is just as biased...

Fun points of what I saw tonight:

1) Remember Schiava...Shiavo...whatever, back in 2005? Of course you don't. Point is, One Terri...S-something was, well, the center of a big debate on Euthanasia and living wills, which had Republican Congressmen, many of the same ones now preaching against government involvement in living wills/end-of-life-planning, stepping in and saying 'Yes, we know better than you about whether your wife should live or die, Mr. Shiavo'.

2) Sara Palin, Newt Gingrich, AND Rush Limbaugh have all gone on the record supporting living wills, end-of-life planning (under a myriad of terms. Palin even had a day declared some kind of Health Care day, the text of the declaration even encouraged people to go and look into--you guessed it--living wills).

3) And by now I was crying on the inside because it really sunk in that the Republican party changes their message repeatedly and their supporters don't catch on. They, in all likelihood, COUNT on that.

In other news on this front, Conservatives are now decrying their own idea as an ominous government intrusion. Apparently, everything becomes evil once Democrats are associated with it.

[Parthenon]

I really dislike the idea that as soon as something gets treated as art it becomes art. There are a couple of probably apocryphal examples about a member of the public walking into a gallery and placing empty bottles or whatever on a stand before standing back and pretending that it is art. Then, after people stand around spouting bullshit about what the meaning of it is, removing it and putting it in the bin. When my friend did it he was shouted at for ruining the art, since as soon as it is in the gallery it becomes owned by the gallery or some such shit.

While thinking about the art thing I came up with a couple of really shitty situations. I can see people treating some of this as art. Opinions? Are either of these art?

---

Artist A and Artist B are sitting in a pub having a drink. They start chatting about various topics, and brainstorm some ideas and things they'd like to express. Artist A then goes and spends a month painting pictures that convey his message.
Just as he's about to put them into a gallery artist B comes along, signs them and puts them in a different gallery, saying that he's showing that art doesn't need to come from your own hands, that he manipulated artist A into doing the art he wanted for him and that it conveys the message he wants.

---

Artist C takes an art book, scans in the pictures before blowing them up to the same size as the originals. He then signs them all and puts them into a gallery under the title "Fake Art is Still Art".

[tzor]

I suspect Obama is pushing those a little with his choices on bailouts and government secrecy. But his supporters would (probably rightly) forgive him that and more in a second if he can get an even mildly good health care reform through.

Which is why the evil Republican's are trying to block it at all costs. They are on public record saying this. No matter how many people DIE because of it they can NEVER let the democrats do ANYTHING for American health care. Because it would prove just too big of a PR loss for the Republicans.

Oh yeah, and of course Tzor's "I'll call him spooky muslim name Obama" snake oil accusations are wildly unbalanced compared to Republican policies and everything about McCain and the frothing loony Alaskan. (and the name thing + he's a liar thing plays into his loony "Birther" street cred) But did that even need saying?

I think I’ll address this bottom up and address the last point first. First and foremost, I will not and will never make any comments about the name of BHO. (Why do I insist in the middle initial? Because; without it; his monogram would be plenty stinky.) In fact there are many presidents who have odd names. I will, however, still insist that he is a snake oil salesman; the only thing he can do well is run for office; actually running the office is not his forte.

Republicans are pushing this because they smell blood. They sense a “Waterloo” moment, a point where he has pushed his influence to the limit and is caught isolated, politically speaking. In one sense, the primary objective was to push this into the fall, allowing August to really drive the point of what the problems of massive bills can be. Still it is still too early to really plan the 2010 campaign, this is just political foreplay.

Conservatives, on the other hand (while not a driving force in the party, a driving force in the base) see this as their line in the sand. The bailouts, the takeovers, the pork laden stimulus, are all signs of massive federal government control over everything. Even the popular program “Cash for Clunkers” aka CARS, brings their blood to a boil. Healthcare, especially the government option is the last straw. They think they know the president’s game plan; THE POST OFFICE for healthcare.

You see, Obama’s choice in using the post office as a model reveals a lot about his final plans. In fact, the post office is a legal monopoly; no one can create a private company to deliver mail. That prohibition is written into several laws. UPS and FedEx only work because they don’t deliver mail; they deliver packages. (And even then they cannot make a profit to save their lives.) From Amtrak, to Medicare, to the Post Office, the government cannot make anything work! The public option is a plan for disaster according to the conservative mindset.

Finally, last and least, my personal presidential name joke is what the Irish started to call him during the campaign, Barry O’Bamma. Why? Because of my favorite Irish Breakfast Tea that comes from Ireland.

[Kaelik]

Tzor, you are a motherfucking lunatic.

The Post office is not a travesty, it works. Medicare/caid are not travesties, they work.

The bailouts started with bush, the takeovers started with bush, The pork laden stimulus doesn't even exist because there was no fucking pork, and that's why asshole idiots like you and every republican who was complaining bring up specific complaints about volcano monitoring and fucking fruit fly research, because you can't point to a giant shit waste of money like a several million dollar bridge to an island with 20 people on it.

And that's the point. You are a lying hack. You call it pork laden because you don't like the idea of government spending money on things that are important and that private markets have repeatedly failed to deliver on. But instead of being honest and saying "If someone with lots of money doesn't think that we should work research stuff we shouldn't." You lie like a dickhole.

And similarly instead of just admitting that you are willing to pay way more for healthcare as long as you can be sure the people you don't think are worth it die in their own filth, you lie about how evil socialism will make it more expensive, or worse care, even though we know for a fact from every single fucking socialized healthcare program in the world and basic fucking numbers counting that it would make it cheaper in total and better too.

But no, you can't convince sane people by just admitting that you don't think poor people deserve to live in good health, so you lie about it like a fucking republican which by the way, is ass for those of us who are somewhat conservative but are sane, because you fucking give us all a bad name by being fucking asshat liars.

[Neeeek]

Conservatives, on the other hand (while not a driving force in the party, a driving force in the base) see this as their line in the sand. The bailouts, the takeovers, the pork laden stimulus, are all signs of massive federal government control over everything. Even the popular program “Cash for Clunkers” aka CARS, brings their blood to a boil. Healthcare, especially the government option is the last straw. They think they know the president’s game plan; THE POST OFFICE for healthcare.

You see, Obama’s choice in using the post office as a model reveals a lot about his final plans. In fact, the post office is a legal monopoly; no one can create a private company to deliver mail. That prohibition is written into several laws. UPS and FedEx only work because they don’t deliver mail; they deliver packages. (And even then they cannot make a profit to save their lives.) From Amtrak, to Medicare, to the Post Office, the government cannot make anything work! The public option is a plan for disaster according to the conservative mindset.

Conservatives aren't scared that government control of health care won't work, they know it will be better than the current system and cost less. They are scared because they know that once people get it and see it's a vast improvement, the lies conservatives have been pushing for half a century will be exposed, and they will be out of power for an entire generation.

I've always wondered why people insult the post office. For less than the cost of a 1/6 of a gallon of gas, someone will come to your house, pick up a letter and take it anywhere in the US. And they will come to pick these letters up 6 days a week, regardless of whether you actually have something that day. Further, when you move, by filling out a single form, they will make sure everything sent to your old address goes to your new address, for no cost to you. The idea that this service is somehow bad is fucking crazy.