Pathfinder: the Lowdown

[Absentminded_Wizard]

The reading comprehension (or lack thereof) in this thread is amazing.

Bloodline Arcana: Some undead are susceptible to your mind-affecting spells. Corporeal undead that were once humanoids are treated as humanoids for the purposes of determining which spells affect them.

So we have people arguing that treating zombies as humanoids "for the purposes of determining which spells affect them" somehow takes away hit points.

The hilarious thing about this rule, though, is that's about the only thing that's clear about the rule text itself. The flavor text gives me a good idea of what they intended, but what the rule actually does is unclear. Well, the fact that it doesn't actually work as intended is pretty clear. However, a case can be made that Frank had it backward and the spell overcomes the undead's immunity but doesn't allow it to be targeted. (Going this route actually could allow you to defeat a vampire by reincarnating it as something you can kill.)

Really, if they wanted to be clear about it, they would have ignored this language about types and written something like this:

Corporeal undead who used to be humanoid can be targeted by mind-affecting spells you cast. These spells also ignore the undead's immunity to mind-affecting spells.

[Koumei]

To be fair, I just saw people talking about "an ability that lets you treat undead as humanoids", not the way the rule was written, so I asked a question.

Also, I love how it says "some undead are susceptible" but then starts a new sentence that doesn't actually expand on that (they only think it does).

[Username17]

It's official now: Combat Maneuvers suck a monkey nut.

-Username17

Can you expand on that a bit more Frank? I understand how the Improved feats are nerfed, and that the maneuvers generally aren't worth the time. It does seem like the CMD is based on your opponent rolling a 10 now, hoever, and their defensive training feat lets you use HD as BAB for calculating rather than a +4 to your defense.

CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier

As one rises in level, Strength and Dexterity both increase. Our 17th level sample Barbarian has a CMB of +24. A CR 13 Storm Giant has a CMD of 40. Our CR 16 Cornugon has a CMD of 45. And both of those are before equipment. She needs a natural 16 to accomplish anything against a monster four levels lower than herself, and she only succeeds on a natural 20 against the fiend one level lower than herself if she can convince the DM that a natural 20 always succeeds on a Combat Maneuver roll.

And that's before we get into the maneuvers themselves:

Grappling no longer requires a free hand, it requires two free hands to avoid an additional -4 penalty to the Combat Maneuver Roll. So our Barbarian has to outright drop her greatsword to succeed on a grab attempt against that Storm Giant on anything other than a natural 20. And it doesn't even do anything unless you keep the grab up for two turns in a row (and the enemy can full attack you in the round in between - no fooling). Verdict: Useless.

Bullrushing is changed all out of recognition. Now, you almost get Domino Rush for free, except that you suffer a -4 penalty to try (which means it doesn't succeed). Also, you still push them one extra square for every 5 points you exceed the DC, which with CMB being what it is you're only ever going to get a 5 square shift off that maneuver. Also, pushing enemies into impassable squares makes your bullrush fail instead of dropping them prone. Verdict: Useless.

Overrun is based on the Andy Collins' petulant errata version where it's always a standard action and can't be combine with a Charge. So you already know it's bad. But they actually made it worse. See, your target can still let you go if they don't want to risk you making a CM check against them, but they might as well take the attack of opportunity because the only thing that happens if you succeed is you moving through their square. To get the knockdown effect, you need to exceed their CMD by five. Verdict: Useless.

Trip You get counter tripped if you fail by 10. So our sample Barbarian will actually trip the Cornugon on a natural 20, but fall down herself on a 1-11. Improved Trip has been divided into two feats (seriously) and the extra attack at the end is now an Attack of Opportunity so you need Combat Reflexes to actually have it stack with the attack you get for them standing up again. Verdict: Useless.

-Username17

[TOZ]

Thanks, I knew the Str AND Dex on the defense bothered me somehow. Yes it is helped by the rule of flatfooted opponents are denied their Dex to it, and by the AC penalties also affecting CMD. But the effects of the maneuvers are the really damning point.

I am kind of hoping they manage something with the Bestiary. Are the monster ability scores in the Monster Manual based on anything or were they pure arbitrarium, do you think? Would a reworking of them to set a better bar per CR help, or be wasted effort?

Edit: I take it back. By their bestiary preview, they think CR 8 zombies and skeletons should have 20+ HD.

[FatR]

What preview? I remember no zombies in their Bonus Bestiary.

[MGuy]

they made a preview bestirary so that people can start low level campaigns with a few monsters

[hogarth]

What preview? I remember no zombies in their Bonus Bestiary.

Link is here:
http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfi ... 48btpy89m5

[FatR]

Thanks. By the way, I would like to see, what kind of PFRPG melee character, not specifically built for such situation, can survive a CR 9 burning skeleton (20 HD, BAB +15, natural attack of a 20-HD creature with +1d6 fire on each, explodes for 20d6 Ref DC 21 upon destruction) or bloody sceleton (the same, except fast healing 10, instead of firey stuff). Even with CR= level-1, these things will seriously rape any 10th level Pfighter, or Pbarbarian, or Pmonk, or Pranger that dares to melee them.

[Roy]

Thanks. By the way, I would like to see, what kind of PFRPG melee character, not specifically built for such situation, can survive a CR 9 burning skeleton (20 HD, BAB +15, natural attack of a 20-HD creature with +1d6 fire on each, explodes for 20d6 Ref DC 21 upon destruction) or bloody sceleton (the same, except fast healing 10, instead of firey stuff). Even with CR= level-1, these things will seriously rape any 10th level Pfighter, or Pbarbarian, or Pmonk, or Pranger that dares to melee them.

You speak as if this surprised you.

[virgil]

Just noticed this on the Bestiary preview...
* Regeneration now just gives fast healing and the inability to die no matter how much damage is done (still unconscious at 0 hp). Certain attack forms (such as fire or acid) cause the regeneration ability to stop functioning for a round after the attack; where they don't regain HP for that round and are able to die from damage.
* Undead are indeed following the d8 HD paradigm w/Cha-mod applying to hit points instead of Con
* Skeletons and Zombies have cleric BAB, and largely retain the same CR
* You can create variants with animate dead.
* Burning/bloody skeletons count for double their HD for however many you make in a casting (no change on control limit). Bloody Skeletons gain Fast Healing equal to half their HD and will return to unlife an hour later if destroyed unless destroyed with positive energy or destroyed within a bless or hallow effect (or holy water is sprinkled on their remains. Burning Skeletons have a 1d6 fire aura (adding to all melee attacks, dealing to every unarmed/natural attack, and each round adjacent), gain the fire subtype (losing their immunity to cold), and deals 1d6/2 HD fire damage (Reflex for half) to any adjacent to them when they're destroyed.
* Zombies get bonus HD based on size (+1/2/4/6/10 for medium to colossal), if their creator casts haste or remove paralysis before animating them, they rise as Fast Zombies that modify the base zombie as follows: +10 spd, +4 Dex (for a net +2), lose the Single Actions Only ability, gain an extra attack to their full attack (as if hasted). If you instead cast contagion before animating them, they rise as Plague Zombies: drop their DR and give them Zombie Rot (exposed on any slam attacks and if adjacent when they're destroyed).
* Zombie Rot - Fort DC 10+half HD+Cha mod - onset 1d4 days - 1/day frequency - 1d2 Con damage that cannot be healed until cured - Cured on 2 consecutive saves - Rise as a plague zombie if you die while infected in 2d6 hours (not killed by the disease, but when you die)
* Most of the CR 2 to 3 monsters shown have a CMD of 19 (give or take), the Huge Fire elemental (CR 7) has a 34 CMD

[Koumei]

Plague Zombies actually sound kind of cool for a Halloween Special game session with a zombie infestation, ala Resident Evil or Dawn of the Dead.

I was going to run such a game a few years back, then I decided not to, because this isn't America and we don't do Halloween.

(After that clip ends, they throw the kids out the window and it turns out they were on the tenth floor of an apartment block. Ignore the fact that the kids knocked on their front door from the street.)

[virgil]

Apparently the Duelist was an overpowered PrC, because they http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/general/duelistHugeNerf its AC by 7 points. Also, the spiked chain is basically a weapon finesse able heavy flail that does less damage and has a smaller threat range. And I just noticed that Tumble no longer has a flat DC 15 to go around people, but now must exceed the target's CMD.

The lead designer finally threw in a response to the Vital Strike question, their use of it in a charge in the example was a mistake. It's a modifier to the standard action Attack, which basically makes it not very synergistic.

A perk with casters and fighters with money, true strike now applies to combat maneuver checks, so there is a way for trips/grapples to happen. One of the devs mentioned something about combat maneuvers: "They aren't the types of things you should probably be doing against tough foes, or honestly even equally matched foes."

[Username17]

You need to win two grapples in a row to effect anything. So even True Strike doesn't help you there. It'll let you succeed in tripping a dude (if you care).

Nerfing the Duelist is just weird. No idea why they thought that was a good thing to do.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

"They aren't the types of things you should probably be doing against tough foes, or honestly even equally matched foes."

Or weaker foes, because you are wasting actions that could be killing one or two of the goblins grappling one of them instead.

[MGuy]

"They aren't the types of things you should probably be doing against tough foes, or honestly even equally matched foes."

This caught my eye. So I would ask them, why keep them in the game at all?

[erik]

Ha ha, now that is some shitty design intent. Wrestling an equivalent foe. That is out. Two skilled duelists attempting to disarm the other. That is out too. Tackling someone your size. No way.

If they want combat manuevers to be used on mooks only then it should be over the top shit like choke slamming a guy, throwing people through tables, or using them as helpless weapons.

Pathfinder football sounds awesome. Give a guy the ball and laugh as he strolls to the end zone every damn time. Where's my season tickets?!

[MGuy]

Tome of Secrets: Anybody heard/know/seen anything about it?

[Fuchs]

The "advanced combat maneuvers" are not meant to be used against equal foes, but against foes much weaker than you? Meaning, in situations other game systems and many DMs usually switch to "narrating how the characters finish off the mooks with cool moves"?

What a waste of rules and time.

[RandomCasualty2]

Yeah I just took the time to browse the PF pdf.. it's just horrible and full of fail. Fighters just got launched back to 2nd edition where your only action ever is to attack, over and over again. Because apparently being able to trip, disarm or grapple was too much.

Actually I'm pretty sure in 2nd edition you could disarm... so we may actually be looking at worse than 2E even.

Anything remotely nice that fighters had, like power attack or improved trip, has been totally nerfed into the ground.

[Fuchs]

At least in 1E there was that rule about killing mooks in droves per round, if I recall correctly.

[TOZ]

Explain more? I'd be interested in how I might use it in 3.5. I tried minions and THAT was a disaster...

[Fuchs]

I think - not sure - that it went like a fighter could simply kill X number of 1/4 hd monsters per round. X might have been his or her level.

(As far as minions go, I thought about using them in 3.0 myself, but I am using low-level foes instead, since ACs are generally not high in our campaign, so they kind of work.)

[TOZ]

Makes sense. I tried using creatures that died in one hit, but they just sucked up the fighters actions and slowed down combat. Bad idea.

[Fuchs]

Makes sense. I tried using creatures that died in one hit, but they just sucked up the fighters actions and slowed down combat. Bad idea.

We've got three Tome of Battle fighters, and with their powers, and cleave/supreme cleave, killing mooks is not a problem - they can kill several opponents at once. Last battle, a desert wind power that creates a ring of fire of sorts was used to clean out all low levle opponents in one move.

[TOZ]

Yeah, that would have been helpful in my game. But all they had was a fighter/ninja, monk, and cleric. Plus the fighter and cleric were new to the game. And I used way too many minions. But hey, live and learn.