Request: A Generlal Explanation of the US Healthcare System

[Gelare]

Much as it pains me to say so, given the government's complete inability to manage pretty much anything at all, ever, with any kind of efficiency, I am actually disappointed that Obama has left so much of this health care reform to Congress. Every single congressman, and the lobbies and special interests that pull their strings, is going to want their own special allowance from the bill, turning the final result into a completely ineffectual mix of random elements that will improve nothing and waste taxpayer funds. At least if Obama were writing the bill solo it would waste taxpayer funds and maybe actually improve something, somewhere, too.

[MGuy]

I don't really see how Obama would even have had a choice. That is how our government works. Congress makes da laws. That's how its always done.

[Crissa]

Congress passes law. They don't necessarily write it. Much like most court orders are actually written by people outside the court itself, and instead approved by the court. Only the upper courts are allowed to write large opinions.

I say the argument is specious for exactly the reason that people say the last several health reforms failed: They were done exactly as Lago suggests, not in Congress.

Now, he does have a point that Obama shouldn't be walking back any part of the bill in congress, and we probably shouldn't even be considering what Sen. Grassley or any of the mealy-mouthed Republicans have to say.

But we still have to deal with the 20% of the nation that thinks it tyranny when 51% of congress decides on a bill and the dozen Blue Dogs in the Senate who are willing to side with Republicans and sink the measure altogether for no reason other than their own pockets.

-Crissa

[Crissa]

Alas, such is the state of the healthcare debate. A woman mocks a Jewish man praising the Israeli universal health system by yelling 'Heil Hitler' and calling him a crybaby.

-Crissa

[MGuy]

Ugh how do you keep finding this stuff that makes my eyes and ears bleed? Anyways I wasn't saying that the bills aer written up in congress but in the end they make it what they want it to be. I think that the democrats are being too weak willed and should (and I hesitate to say this) take a page out of the Bush administration's book and start ignoring the public until the dirty deed is done. It won't help the fight they are having in house but at least they should take steps to prevent these lunatics from brow beating and shouting them into submission.

[Crissa]

Oh, this might be helpful:

[MGuy]

Crissa you are very lovely.

[Koumei]

A woman mocks a Jewish man praising the Israeli universal health system by yelling 'Heil Hitler'

How the fuck does that even make any sense? The "Heil Hitler" doesn't even have anything to do with the health-care debate, she just randomly trolled a Jewish guy with that. Seriously, I'm trying to see how her comment has any more relevance than "You're bald! HAHAHA!" and drawing a blank.

[Crissa]

Notice the woman is wearing an Israeli Defense Force t-shirt, too.

Alas, that is the argument from the right. It's slurs, lies, and yelling vs... Our democratic processes. These guys literally want to win by being a privilidged, but loud, minority.

-Crissa

[violence in the media]

Alas, such is the state of the healthcare debate. A woman mocks a Jewish man praising the Israeli universal health system by yelling 'Heil Hitler' and calling him a crybaby.

-Crissa

I'm afraid to click the link. Please tell me some surly old Holocaust survivor punched her teeth in for that one.

[Koumei]

I wish.

[Crissa]

No, an old IDF veteran told her for shame for shame until her ranting reduced him to tears.

-Crissa

[cthulhu]

<SNIP>

[violence in the media]

This article is unsurprising, really, but it talks about how many of the opponents of government healthcare are themselves beneficiaries of it.

[Caedrus]

The big problem is that Obama's plan has been so thoroughly watered down by lobbyist pressure that it probably won't do its job anymore, or at least that's the impression I've gotten. A crappy public option could be potentially worse than no public option, just because the idiots will use it as a basis to oppose any further attempts to get the reform we actually need.

The important question isn't whether or not we need healthcare reform (we do), but rather whether the reform we're likely to get will be worth the paper it is printed on.

I'm afraid to click the link. Please tell me some surly old Holocaust survivor punched her teeth in for that one.

Nope. Nothing bad happens to the woman, or to anyone else who acts like her. And that's the scary part: There are a lot of people like her, and I've interacted with too damn many of them.

[MGuy]

+ fucking 1 Caedrus

[Lago PARANOIA]

I continue to stand by my opinion that the United States will not be getting a strong public option anytime soon.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009 ... option.php

During a tele-townhall with constituents today, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said he supports a public option...but then he added an extremely important caveat. Reid said he doesn't think the public option ought to be a government run program like Medicare, but instead favors a "private entity that has direction from the federal government so people that don't fall within the parameters of being able to get insurance from their employers, they would have a place to go. "

That sounds suspiciously like Reid would prefer a so-called co-op system, which almost all reformers regard with suspicion, and many regard as a non-starter. Reid is ultimately more than just one vote, too. If the Senate passes a health care bill through the regular legislative process, he'll be the one marrying two different pieces of legislation: one which creates a public option, and one which creates co-ops. Likewise, if the Senate passes health care reforms on a partisan basis through the so-called reconciliation process, his office would take the lead in determining whether to try an include a public option in the reconciliation bill.

You have to give Harry and Obama some credit. After these morons get kicked out of office for pissing off their base and the opposition... uh... what happens then? Republicans come back into power with a generationally shrinking base? Then profit?

[Absentminded_Wizard]

You make an interesting point, Lago. It's possible for the Republicans to gain seats in Congress next year and win the presidency back in 2012. However, this might be the worst thing that could happen to them in the long run.

If that scenario happens, the rabidly insane conservative base will take it as vindication of their ideology. Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter will crow that Republicans win when they run more reactionary candidates. Unfortunately, those pesky demographics will remain in their way, as their base starts to die off and the millenials start voting in larger numbers.

Ironically, for all the comparisons between Obama and Reagan, Obama's situation may be more analogous to Nixon's. Nixon was the first conservative Republican to win office using their modern playbook. Though he was forced to resign in disgrace, his successor was replaced by a Democrat whose later defeat set up a long run of Republican presidents and the primacy of conservative ideas in American political debate. Now, I don't think Obama's going to have a massive scandal, but it's quite possible that he might be replaced with a Republican Jimmy Carter who ends up being the last hurrah of that party for a while.

[Ganbare Gincun]

The big problem is that Obama's plan has been so thoroughly watered down by lobbyist pressure that it probably won't do its job anymore, or at least that's the impression I've gotten. A crappy public option could be potentially worse than no public option, just because the idiots will use it as a basis to oppose any further attempts to get the reform we actually need.

There are currently five healthcare reform bills floating around Congress right now. 4 of them have yet to be completed, and the one that has been completed in the House is over 1000 pages long. There's been a whole lot of screaming and yelling on the part of the MSM and their assorted pawns and co-conspirators about the evils of "Obamacare", but the fact of the matter is that there really isn't any actual legislation to debate and poll numbers still indicate that Americans still want health care reform. You'll see the Democratic P.R. machine go into full effect once there's an actual bill to rally around. Until then, they are more then happy to watch Republicans demonstrate to the world just how bat-shit crazy they are.

[Ganbare Gincun]

I continue to stand by my opinion that the United States will not be getting a strong public option anytime soon.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009 ... option.php

Harry Reid doesn't have a backbone. He's possibly one of the worst Senate Majority Leaders that Congress has ever seen. When push comes to shove, he'll fall in line with what other Democratic leaders desire simply because he has neither the initiative or the ability to spearhead anything on his own.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Harry Reid doesn't have a backbone. He's possibly one of the worst Senate Majority Leaders that Congress has ever seen. When push comes to shove, he'll fall in line with what other Democratic leaders desire simply because he has neither the initiative or the ability to spearhead anything on his own.

What makes you think that the current crop of Dems don't like this arrangement?

Harry gives them cover towards being money-grubbing DLC whores. I was hoping that after Obama bitchslapped them in the 2008 primary that wold be the end of that. But apparently in fighting monsters he became a monster himself. I'm looking at you, Rahm.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

The problem is that Obama came up with this brilliant plan to raise money from small donors over the Internet, but the Congressional Dems were still doing business as usual for their campaigns. They spent a great deal of time at the convention getting cozy with lobbyists from the same old large corporations. Anyone who was paying attention knew this was going to turn into a conflict

[Lago PARANOIA]

Well, anyway, we'll see this Labor Day once and for all what side Obama comes on.

The vast majority of Americans don't get their news on the development of health care other than soundbites and unless you've been following the news more deeply you probably don't know what Obama's position is; hence the confusion the public has on this issue.

I still think that Obama made a mistake in letting the progressive and Blue Cross Dems wing engage in brinkmanship; right now the progressives are painted into a corner where they can't back down and the Blue Dogs are in a position where they can (for the time being) just ignore any carrots and sticks.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Yeah, it definitely would have been better if Obama had just said, "Here is what I want in a healthcare bill" (as opposed to "Here are a few vague red lines that might or might not provoke a veto"). Leaving it to a large body like the Congressional Democrats, who have varying ideologies and major campaign contributors, guaranteed that it was going to be an even bigger mess than it would be anyway.

[MGuy]

He probably wanted to avoid seeming threatening. He's supposed to be the progressive "we can work these things out" kind of president right?