I think I might be getting stalked

[CatharzGodfoot]

Well, a few things. 1) Bees don't ever do anything bad for other bees either, really. There are some notable exceptions, but they also are rarities, and the hive polices that shit.

Man, if only groups of humans were all sisters of which only one could reproduce, and which surrounded and suffocated any person of a different race they saw.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

3) I was also speaking mostly in the context of Counts "Women are selfish, so I can't date them." thing, because the point is that selfish women are good, because when you are dating them, you/they are making their happiness dependent on yours. So the more happy they want to be, the more happy they will attempt to make you. That's a good thing.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said that I couldn't date women, I said that I haven't found one that I got along with. That's like the point of dating, finding out you can't get along with someone before you get her knocked up and have to deal with her the rest of your life. In fact, if I put my mind to it I could probably date any single women who's into guys, and more than a few that aren't single. It's a factor of if it's what I want.

And the rest of point 3? I am working from a sample size of 6-7 women so take this lightly, but none of the women I've dated had any desire to reciprocate anything. Which is why I am no longer dating them. I do legitimately enjoy doing nice things for women and making them happy, but when I'm on a date with someone and I'm suffering heatstroke and she doesn't take me seriously and keeps wandering off to prattle at random people when I'm staggering into things because my vision has gone black until I finally fall out, well that's a problem.

You can paint me with as broad a brush as you want, but I remain convinced that it's selfish to deny me shade until I almost die because she wants to talk to random people for what seemed like hours.

I agree that when I was suffering from that depression a few years ago, I said things that were out of line. I apologize for that, I did in fact say things that were unfucking called for. But sometimes someone who is angry about how people are treating them is telling the truth.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

And squirells, too. Dirty little bastards.

Especially when it comes to their favorite "drug" aka peanut butter.

Want to be mean to a squirrel? Get a nice large piece of white bread and layer it with peanut butter. They really don’t know how to “divide” the slice so they fight over it and then it’s really hard to carry so they literally climb up the tree backwards with the whole slice in their mouth. Fun to watch.

I'm totally trying that sometime.

[ubernoob]

@Tzor: I'm so going to try that some time. If it works, I will be a very happy camper for at least twenty minutes.

@Count: Stop dating. Dating is how you find the woman you want to marry. If you're not looking for a wife, just "hang out" together and have sex whenever you feel like it.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Doesn't work like that for me. People in general know I'm capable of a great deal, and therefore they ask more from me.

If you are trying to engage me in a semantics discussion, it will cause two things:

1. Me to become irritated

2. Your ass to be kicked . (That last one was joking, I'm not trying to play internet tough guy)

[tzor]

No, count, there is a word for it these days ...

It figures I'm drawing a blank on it.

Must google ... oddly enough using "sex dating term NPR" worked, I really did hear it on NPR!

The term is "The Hookup"

Mind you in your case it would be "Extreeme Hookup" ... just saying.

[violence in the media]

You pick up sex lingo from NPR?

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Actually, you'd be real surprised at some of the stuff they let NPR do. Most of it is somewhat dry, but I've heard some really raw stuff from time to time. They wouldn't let other radio stations get away with it.

the idea of a hookup intrigues me, but I have found it to be fairly difficult.

[Kaelik]

Count. Stop being so weird and paranoid. I don't even know about your depressive period, because I guess I didn't hang out on MPSIMS at the time. I wasn't making a post to decry your evil. I don't give a fuck. I was just pointing out that Selfish is good. And the problem is not that anyone is not selfish. It's that they have a different set of things that make them happy than you are looking for.

Also, I'm not talking about reciprocity at all. You can (theoretically) have a relationship with someone in which they are never happy because you did something nice for them and are only ever happy because they did something nice for you. It's unlikely to work out that way because people are nice to other people, but there are lots of people who are happy just making other people happy and demand nothing in return.

[Username17]

All 'altruism' is done because people gain benefits from it.

This is horseshit. Everything is done in an ultimate sense to pass on genes to future generations. Kin selection being what it is, working to selflessly help other humans you've never met is just as effective a strategy as growing babies of your own.

'Personal' benefit doesn't mean anything, because in the long run you don't mean anything.

-Username17

[violence in the media]

Actually, you'd be real surprised at some of the stuff they let NPR do. Most of it is somewhat dry, but I've heard some really raw stuff from time to time. They wouldn't let other radio stations get away with it.

the idea of a hookup intrigues me, but I have found it to be fairly difficult.

It was more of a "how'd the hell it take you that long to hear about it" question.

Which NPR shows are you listening to? I listen to about 35-40 hours of it a week, so I get most of Morning Edition and Fresh Air, plus about 6 hours of classical music, and I can't recall ever hearing anything I'd term raw. Especially considering my comparison point is the Bubba the Love Sponge morning show on the local classic rock station. Am I missing all the good stuff?

[Kaelik]

This is horseshit. Everything is done in an ultimate sense to pass on genes to future generations. Kin selection being what it is, working to selflessly help other humans you've never met is just as effective a strategy as growing babies of your own.

'Personal' benefit doesn't mean anything, because in the long run you don't mean anything.

-Username17

No that is horseshit. People do shit because the synapses in their brain tell them to do shit. And the shit they do is done because they like it.

Selection is the reason people like the things they like, but they don't do shit for selection, they do shit because they like it.

Selection is not even remotely the motivation of any living being, that is why we have a bunch of living beings that will never pass on their genes and will spend most of their time helping other people who are not very genetically close to them, at the expense of people who are.

People do shit because they like it, not because it propagates their genes. Ideally, the shit they like exists because it will help them pass on their genes, but ideally is not actually unless there have literally been no changes of any kind to the outside world or their raising process since their parents were selected for.

Your strange crazy view would imply that their aren't more fit and less fit individuals because everyone is acting to propagate their genes, when in fact, selection only exists as a process because lots of people like things that don't propagate their genes.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Count. Stop being so weird and paranoid. I don't even know about your depressive period, because I guess I didn't hang out on MPSIMS at the time. I wasn't making a post to decry your evil. I don't give a fuck. I was just pointing out that Selfish is good. And the problem is not that anyone is not selfish. It's that they have a different set of things that make them happy than you are looking for.

Also, I'm not talking about reciprocity at all. You can (theoretically) have a relationship with someone in which they are never happy because you did something nice for them and are only ever happy because they did something nice for you. It's unlikely to work out that way because people are nice to other people, but there are lots of people who are happy just making other people happy and demand nothing in return.

I don't understand a word of that or why it applies to anything.

Please stop, you're starting to get on my nerves.

[Kaelik]

I don't understand a word of that or why it applies to anything.

Please stop, you're starting to get on my nerves.

That applies to the situation because you bitched about something, and then other people started talking about selfish, and then you quoted something not directed at you and bitched about it.

I am telling you why you did not understand what I was saying, because you for some reason thought it was about you, instead of about philosophical "what do people think" bullshit.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Alright, Kaelik is now on my ignore list.

[ubernoob]

Alright, Kaelik is now on my ignore list.

That's kind of a bitch move (to announce it that is). It's one thing to put another person on your ignore list (I put Elennsar on mine a while back), but it's kind of a passive aggressive bitch move when you post that you're doing so because then when the person you put on ignore says something you go "Lalalala, I can't hear you!"

Just saying. Ignore lists are handy, but actually announcing that you're putting someone on it is kind of a bitch move in most cases.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I fail to see the need to bust my balls like this. Seriously.

[Sock Puppet]

And squirells, too. Dirty little bastards.

Especially when it comes to their favorite "drug" aka peanut butter.

Want to be mean to a squirrel? Get a nice large piece of white bread and layer it with peanut butter. They really don’t know how to “divide” the slice so they fight over it and then it’s really hard to carry so they literally climb up the tree backwards with the whole slice in their mouth. Fun to watch.

I'm totally trying that sometime.

Well here's a wierd story for ya, and maybe something you can have fun with in the future.

So I was shopping at some discount outlet store, and picked up a box of off-brand Frosted Mini-Wheats that were maple-flavored. Sounded good at the time, but they were way too sweet for me and I couldn't eat more than two bites. Now, I live in a very cold climate, and winters are rough for the indigenous fauna. I'm kind of a softie, so I take pity on the local animals and leave out food at odd times during the winter to help them stay alive and stuff. I have this one particular spot picked out where I leave it in a big plastic tray, right underneath a tree in my back yard. I dumped the entire box of Frosted Nasty-Wheats in the tray, even though I probably should have just left small amounts at intervals.

So a few hours later, I'm sitting in my living room looking out the window, and sure enough there's a squirrel chowing on the cereal. Only, the thing is, what I realize that he's doing is just chewing all of the fake frosting off of a piece, dropping it and moving on to the frosting on the next. He's been at it for a while, so this squirrel is getting a massive dose of sugar. After a couple of minutes of this, I notice that Mr. Squirrel is swaying all over the place, and totally acting like he's drunk. I start to think this isn't a good thing, so I go out into the yard to chase him away. Sure enough, he starts to climb the tree right there but he actually falls off the tree as he's trying to climb. Squirrel realizes there is no way to get out of this with his dignity intact, so he scrambles away (in a very zig-zagged line) into some bushes. So now I'm feeling guilty that I put this squirrel into diabetic shock or something, and I spread the cereal out for the birds to eat instead.

So, a little guilty, yeah, but mostly it was simply funny as all Hell. A drunk squirrel, if you can imagine it, is probably the most hilarious thing I've seen in years. (Mr. Squirrel did end up showing up later on to chase the birds away and recover the last of the Mini-Wheats, much to my continued amusement)

[Lago PARANOIA]

Was that really a story that needed to be told, Sock Puppet, or were you MADE UNCOMFORTABLE BY THE SOCIAL ORDER OF THE BOARD BEING UPSET BY ARGUMENT SO YOU TRIED TO DISTRACT US?!

[Koumei]

So either Frank has a very strange world view, I'm an aberration that does not fit in the universe (I know there's evidence for that. Shut up) with my lack of desire to propagate my genes, or I'm actually a socially awkward misanthropic bitter ass-pie sugar-addicted gamer lesbian simply to propagate my genes.

I think I'll stick with the first.

[Sock Puppet]

Was that really a story that needed to be told, Sock Puppet, or were you MADE UNCOMFORTABLE BY THE SOCIAL ORDER OF THE BOARD BEING UPSET BY ARGUMENT SO YOU TRIED TO DISTRACT US?!

Well, *sniff* I wasn't uncomfortable UNTIL YOU YELLED AT ME! *bwah huh hah hah hauuu*

[erik]

Ignore lists are handy, but actually announcing that you're putting someone on it is kind of a bitch move in most cases.

I see it more like a single notice "Hey, you can keep talking at me, but rest assured, I won't be hearing it."

I can imagine the frustration that could go on if someone if someone thought they were discussing something with you and you simply continued on, ignoring their points. I recently ignored someone the old fashioned way (not BB ignore, just skipped some posts) due to lack of time to read any long posts, and I only noticed when some posts started mentioning my name and rage quoting of me.

So, stating you have someone on ignore is a reasonable conversation ender in my opinion.

[Username17]

Your strange crazy view would imply that their aren't more fit and less fit individuals because everyone is acting to propagate their genes, when in fact, selection only exists as a process because lots of people like things that don't propagate their genes.

Selection as a meaningful force on humanity does not exist. None of us has appreciably different genes, we're a genetic bottleneck.

So either Frank has a very strange world view, I'm an aberration that does not fit in the universe (I know there's evidence for that. Shut up) with my lack of desire to propagate my genes, or I'm actually a socially awkward misanthropic bitter ass-pie sugar-addicted gamer lesbian simply to propagate my genes.

What? What part of "Kin Selection" do you not understand? Just by participating in society you are propagating your genes. Your genes are interchangeable with everyone else's genes, it seriously doesn't fucking matter. Gay people contribute no less to the successful creation and preservation of subsequent generations than do straight people. Division of labor and all that. It doesn't make any sense to try to have each women produce 2.1 healthy children each. It's more efficient to have some women produce zero and others produce 4.2.

But really seriously I want everyone who is talking about "self interest" to go eat a dick and die. There is no such thing.

People are goal driven. They advance their goals to the limit of their abilities to the limit of their understanding at any given moment. Goals may or may not include pleasure, comfort, or even survival. Some do, some don't. Ranting about how people are crazy for not following their self interest (presumably as defined by you) is really just sour grapes over not understanding the goals of other people. The flaw is with you, not with them.

In the long run, the only goals that actually matter are the goals that apply in the long run. The only biological imperative is to keep the species alive after you die, and that is a goal which by definition can be accomplished without your personal survival. That's the only goal that can be considered "rational." Pursuit of pleasure leads logically to curling up in a senseless opium cloud, pursuit of wealth is entirely artificial and arbitrary, and so on. Perpetuating and improving society is "rational" because in the long run it is the only thing that makes any difference.

But yeah, lots of people have various other goals. Some of them are short or medium term. And their actions only make sense in the context of those goals. And none of them are justifiable in any abstract fashion, they are just there. But you can't get anywhere trying to label shit as being in their self interest or not, because you aren't them and you don't have their goals.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

People are goal driven. They advance their goals to the limit of their abilities to the limit of their understanding at any given moment. Goals may or may not include pleasure, comfort, or even survival. Some do, some don't. Ranting about how people are crazy for not following their self interest (presumably as defined by you) is really just sour grapes over not understanding the goals of other people. The flaw is with you, not with them.

I'm confused at how you can something intelligent like this, but also make that bladfacedly stupid claim that everyone is motivated by the goal of 'improving society' or 'biological imperative' as if people are universally motivated by that, even though, in fact, many people are not.

Also, you are still being stupid talking about perpetuation of the species, as if selection or evolution worked on a species wide framework.

Yes, selection does still apply to humans. 95% of our genes are identical, and that doesn't matter, because that 95% doesn't determine our actions. The difference determines our actions, and the different actions involves some genes propagating more than others. You can totally decide that 95% is enough and never produce because everyone else is 95% of you. But a million years from now, when those genes that people like you have and very few others no longer exist, that's still selection on those genes.

[ubernoob]

Frank, could you explain why humanity is in a genetic bottleneck? I know that selection is very toned down due to the fact that people don't get killed fast enough, but isn't there still sexual selection to account for?