Making Retreats viable

[CatharzGodfoot]

So a reasonable point to ditch the battlemap and look up the chase rules might be if you took the Retreat action last round and nothing has attacked you since?

If you're using a battle map, you probably don't ever want to ditch it. Unless you ditch it entirely, which would probably be almost entirely a good thing for D&D.

[NativeJovian]

One thing I suggested was to have "Retreat" as an action that takes up your whole round (so you're not really kiting while you're doing it) but raises your defenses (as if you were taking a defense action) as well as moving you faster. And you can turn corners. That way, at least, taking said action isn't basically just shouting to someone "hey, shoot me in the back!"

With the exception of the beefed-up defenses, that sounds a lot like the withdraw action. I don't think that beefing defense while retreating is a good idea anyway -- people who turn and run away do tend to get stabbed in the back, and this is true whether we're talking about people or tanks or fighter jets. We want this to be true in a gaming system as well, in order to discourage people from running away every time things look hairy.

Running should only be a viable option if you know you can't win the fight you're in -- but it should be possible even then. If you're winning, you have no reason to run. If you're completely screwed and you're about to die, you want to be able to run away in order to avoid painful death. But if it's a close fight and you might lose or you might win, you want to encourage players to stick it out and finish the fight, however it ends. Otherwise it becomes the best choice to run away in everything but a battle where you're curbstomping the opposition, because running away is less risky than a close fight.

This means you have to give running away some kind of cost -- but not one that relates to the success of your running away in the first place (otherwise it becomes impossible to successfully run away when you really need to; ie when you're doomed if you don't). The only thing that comes to my mind is offering bonuses for shedding equipment -- if you drop your sword and your shield, you gain temporary speed bonuses when fleeing, or something like that.

[violence in the media]

This means you have to give running away some kind of cost -- but not one that relates to the success of your running away in the first place (otherwise it becomes impossible to successfully run away when you really need to; ie when you're doomed if you don't). The only thing that comes to my mind is offering bonuses for shedding equipment -- if you drop your sword and your shield, you gain temporary speed bonuses when fleeing, or something like that.

That's going to disproportionately affect fighters, compared to everyone else. On top of it, they'll be less able to meet future challenges as a result.

Throwing down your weapons and running is thematic. Though I wonder if part of that was just to shift aggro onto the other dudes you were running with that hung on to their kit (and were thus still technically threats) or to distract your foe with looting (as they probably weren't getting paid)?

[NativeJovian]

That's going to disproportionately affect fighters, compared to everyone else.

Well, I didn't say it was a good idea, but I couldn't think of anything that simple and thematically appropriate that would affect all classes equally.

On top of it, they'll be less able to meet future challenges as a result.

That's basically the point. If you're running, you've lost, and you shouldn't be able to run, take a breather to do some healing and put some buffs up, then run right back in and start kicking ass. If you run from a fight, you should keep running until something significant changes (reinforcements arrive, you reach terrain that favors you, etc). I just can't think of a good mechanic to make that happen.

[Caedrus]

One thing I suggested was to have "Retreat" as an action that takes up your whole round (so you're not really kiting while you're doing it) but raises your defenses (as if you were taking a defense action) as well as moving you faster. And you can turn corners. That way, at least, taking said action isn't basically just shouting to someone "hey, shoot me in the back!"

With the exception of the beefed-up defenses, that sounds a lot like the withdraw action. I don't think that beefing defense while retreating is a good idea anyway -- people who turn and run away do tend to get stabbed in the back, and this is true whether we're talking about people or tanks or fighter jets. We want this to be true in a gaming system as well, in order to discourage people from running away every time things look hairy.

Well that's because it is a lot like the withdraw action. The thing is, a minor defensive bonus still represents you being less defensive than if you actually stayed and fought, because when you stay and fight, you're putting pressure on the enemy. So the end result is that you're less suicidal, but you're still going to get hurt (while not hurting the other guy) while withdrawing.

This means you have to give running away some kind of cost

The "not fighting back this round" thing is actually a very important cost. Let's not forget that.

[Draco_Argentum]

For a start dump the battlemat. Abstract positioning is easier to integrate with a chase system. Second, there shouldn't be a separate chase system, you should have powers that help you escape. Know something over while I run away is an ability that you use in a fight. It increases your distance from your enemy and makes it harder for them to close with you until your next turn.

Doing it like that means you sidestep the scale change problem and the minigame switch problem.

[Just another user]

What's a good way to make retreating viable in a tactical battlemap sense, and without making kiting an unbeatable strategy?

If they are faster than you, slow them down Web, Grease (magic or not) caltrops, tangle-foot bags, bags of marbles or anything else you can think of, or try to go where they can't use their full speed, put obstacles on their way, try to hide and move away while they can't see you.

[ckafrica]

The problem I see is the mounted archer problem. If running away is supposed to be a viable player tactic, it needs to have a relatively high chance of success, yet if the players can just move slightly out of range of their pursuers and ambush for the win every time. Not to say that a good prepared ambush should be a viable strategy, but it retreat mechanics should turn the disadvantage (we're getting our ass kicked and need to fall back) into an advantage.

Perhaps initiating retreat actions (where you get bonuses to aid your chance of retreat) should need to be done at the cost of some sorts of combat resources. So I can burn my flaming strike I've saved to get my ass out of here, but if I do get away I'm out of most of my cool attacks so an ambush against the pursuers would be suicidal. It might add some tactical depth to the game where you have to decide how much of my resources should I save for combat and how many I should save to get my ass out of combat should I find the need.

[Apalala]

For those curious, Spycraft's chase system works in seven steps. These chases usually assume you're in a vehicle of some sort, but work on foot as well.

First, you choose maneuvers. Those chasing and being chased--predators and prey--have a list of maneuvers they can perform. They have a sort of paper-rock-scissors vibe, with certain maneuvers getting bonuses others. For instance, if the prey uses Barnstorm--running into a crowded area with lots of obstacles--they'll get a bonus versus a predator who uses Gun It--which makes them simply try and go as fast as they can. Intuitive, for the most part, and the book has a table for checking each combination.

Next, the maneuvers are actually rolled. Step three is spending action dice to improve rolls. After that, the distance between the predator and prey is adjusted based on the maneuvers and rolls.

Then, the GM rolls for any obstacles both might run into, and those are dealt with. After that, everyone else--passengers and such--take their turns. Finally, depending on maneuvers, obstacles, bad rolls, there are crash checks to make sure you don't trash yourself.

On foot, there aren't really any passengers, so everyone would be making a maneuver check unless you designated someone as the front runner or some such. Checks would use the balance skill.

A bit messy, especially when everyone is firing pistols at each other at the same time, but the idea of opposed maneuver checks is nice. In dnd, such chases should only really work in difficult terrain. On a flat plain, it'll come down to speed. But in a crowded market or dense jungle, you could have a lot of fun.

[shadzar]

Where did the other thread go? The one that I guess led to this one with my mention of fleeing from a great wyrm?