Pathfinder: the Lowdown

[MGuy]

Forgive my poor math skills but how does a core fighter have 23 BASE str at 7th level?

[Quantumboost]

One thing that stuck out at me: Astral Deva isn't a legitimate form for Polymorph. You can turn the target into another creature "of their type" up to 5 HD, or you can turn them into a creature of one of a set list of types (none of which are Outsider) of any HD up to your caster level (max 15). Neither of those allows you to turn them into a 12 HD Outsider, even for things that are already Outsiders. So unless you're actually pulling a fast one on the DM, you can't turn into an Angel.

[Treantmonklvl20]

One thing that stuck out at me: Astral Deva isn't a legitimate form for Polymorph. You can turn the target into another creature "of their type" up to 5 HD, or you can turn them into a creature of one of a set list of types (none of which are Outsider) of any HD up to your caster level (max 15). Neither of those allows you to turn them into a 12 HD Outsider, even for things that are already Outsiders. So unless you're actually pulling a fast one on the DM, you can't turn into an Angel.

Everything I posted there is legal by RAW (but not by any sensible DM - who raises the banhammer for all these spells).

From the SRD:

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

There is no different HD limit for turning someone into another creature of their own type or into another type. In either case it is your caster level, or the subjects HD, whichever is lower, to a maximum of 15HD.

The Astral Deva form is legal by RAW as long as the target is an outsider. I've heard of some sneaky ways of doing this, but the easiest was is the Otherworldly feat from Races of Faerun (you need to be an elf - I think there's a couple other less common races you can be too). Or you could be a Teifling (though I'm not big on LA, even with buyoff).

Which was why I mentioned in the Astral Deva entry "you need to be "Otherworldly" or a natural outsider"

Yes - it's all stupidly broken. Ridiculously stupidly broken.

[Kaelik]

versatility = power. (This is why wizards are powerful - spells=versatility)

No, versatility does not equal power. That's why Factotums and Bards and Commoners are not powerful. Power = Power. Versatility = Versatility.

Being Versatile + Powerful is better than just one. But being Versatile is not as good as being powerful.

Some options For Combat:

War Troll: NA +14, Base str 31, Large Size, Dazing blow (ex). You can take this form and get the nice NA and still cast. If you cast Enlarge Person beforehand, the character can continue to use their armor, otherwise, they can still use magic items and weapons, though to get the dazing blow they need to attack ah-natural.

Be a crappy Fighter at level 12 for a 4th level slot, for one single combat. Not impressed.

Really, you can force a Daze effect on your enemy when you hit them in melee with your mediocre AB? You can do the same thing when you hit them from range for more damage.

Or is the part where you use it as a buff on the Fighter for some stupid reason. IE, hey level 12 Fighter with Str 30, you can now have Str 31! and Large size! And you daze things on a hit.

What's that, you already have Str 30, Enlarge Person would benefit you more, and you do 1000 damage per hit anyway? Oh, well that was kind of a waste.

12 headed hydra:Totally broken. NA +13, 12 attacks are one standard action - including on a charge. Make it Cryo or Pyro is fire or cold immunity is helpful. This is the form of choice for any charge build. Instead of applying the power attack bonus to one attack, apply it to 12. This just scratches the surface. Imagine this form + scout for example. Move 10', attack 12 times, move 10', attack 12 times (now add power attack). You can use this abuse long before 12th level, just reduce the number of heads, making it a form that improves as you do.

OMG! 12000 damage per round instead of 4000 damage. That's going to make a huge difference. And you can use four 4th level spells each day, and 4 Wizard standard actions in combat to get the Scout to do moderate damage. Wow. That would matter if I ever let a scout eat up my XP, and simultaneously was not a Wizard, and so couldn't just cripple my enemy so that minions can finish it off.

Astral Deva: Na+15, Fly perfect 100, Deva immunities, All simple/martial weapon profs, (this one is for the wizard - the fly 100 perfect is awesome, the immunities are nice, defensively solid, doesn't prevent casting - you need to be "Otherworldly" or a natural outsider)

Wow, that would be minorly impressive, except the part where "but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form" is in the polymorph spell.

You don't gain weapon profs, why you'd fucking care I don't know. You already have the outsider type. You do get a 100ft perfect fly speed.

But that's just versatile spellcaster, but saving you a single action. Since Haste+Fly is already 90ft Not to mention Con and Dex being lower in Astral Deva form than standard for a Wizard.

Immunities: Fire, Cold, Electricity, Acid, Gaze attacks, illusions, Petrification, Poison, Sleep, Mind-affect (as with Mind Blank, an 8th level spell), Stunning, Paralysis, Critical hits, sneak attack

See "but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form"

Movement: Fly, Earth Glide, Swim, Burrow

Abilities: Rust (rust monster), Invisibility (Will-o-wisp), Pounce, Rake, Improved grab, Rend, Poison, Constrict, paralization for starters

See "but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form"

OK - by RAW I can polymorph your character into a human or strongheart halfling and you get a bonus feat of choice. Stupid but true (very very very very stupid)

See "but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form"

[shau]

Treantmonklvl20, if you are still interested I am willing to do a run through of how powerful wizards are even with pathfinder core spells. Its pretty much only second level that you are appreciably weaker or lacking in totally awesome things to do.

[CatharzGodfoot]

versatility = power. (This is why wizards are powerful - spells=versatility)

No, versatility does not equal power. That's why Factotums and Bards and Commoners are not powerful.

Bards aren't versatile; that's a crazy myth and I have no idea why people believe it. Commoners aren't versatile either. As lvl20 says, wizards are versatile, and they're also powerful as hell. Druids are versatile, and also crazy powerful. Rogues are decently versatile and decently powerful as well.

In D&D, versatility and power tend to go together.

[Kaelik]

versatility = power. (This is why wizards are powerful - spells=versatility)

No, versatility does not equal power. That's why Factotums and Bards and Commoners are not powerful.

Bards aren't versatile; that's a crazy myth and I have no idea why people believe it. Commoners aren't versatile either. As lvl20 says, wizards are versatile, and they're also powerful as hell. Druids are versatile, and also crazy powerful. Rogues are decently versatile and decently powerful as well.

In D&D, versatility and power tend to go together.

Bards are quite versatile.

They have lots of skill points, spells that do all sorts of things, They can fight and shit, ect.

The difference is that unlike real characters, they do everything shittier than real characters, and their versatility does not equate to power.

Being able to cast shitty spells that do things not level appropriate, and being able to fight shitty, and being able to skill acceptably, sucks.

Rogues can do only one thing, damage, but they do it well. Optimized Fighters do the damage, and well. (Optimized Bards become Sublime Chords, or give copious damage to everyone else, or both).

Bards are versatile, in that they can do lots of different shit. It just all sucks, so it's not a real option, which is my entire point that versatile shittiness, IE the ability to be different kinds of shitty Fighter that's still not as good as an actual fighter at level 12 is not powerful, it's versatile, and shitty.

[Treantmonklvl20]

Treantmonklvl20, if you are still interested I am willing to do a run through of how powerful wizards are even with pathfinder core spells. Its pretty much only second level that you are appreciably weaker or lacking in totally awesome things to do.

Sure - that would be helpful.

No, versatility does not equal power. That's why Factotums and Bards and Commoners are not powerful. Power = Power. Versatility = Versatility.

If you think Bards or Factotums are half as versatile as a full caster you seriously need to try playing D&D.

Versatility in D&D does equal power.

You don't gain weapon profs, why you'd fucking care I don't know.

Gains the type/subtype. Read up on the Outsider type.

See "but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form"

Gains the type/subtype. Start by reading: See an (Ex) beside immune to mind control beside the Plant type - me neither. If it's an untyped benifit, Polymorph grants it by RAW. This applies to bonus feats/movement types/natural attacks/immunities - anything that doesn't have a (ex), (su) or (sp) beside it.

Seriously - you are wasting my time. Go ahead and take the final word - I think you aren't really providing me with anything here.

[RandomCasualty2]

One thing to note about Kaelik treant is that he plays Tome games (only he usually doens't say that upfront in balance discussions) and often compares like everything to what a Tome character can do, which tends to really skew the balance of everything he says. And I think that not only is he playing with the Tomes, but he's also using Tome homebrew material which sends his stuff into crazy town.

[Treantmonklvl20]

One thing to note about Kaelik treant is that he plays Tome games (only he usually doens't say that upfront in balance discussions) and often compares like everything to what a Tome character can do, which tends to really skew the balance of everything he says. And I think that not only is he playing with the Tomes, but he's also using Tome homebrew material which sends his stuff into crazy town.

Maybe so. However, unless it's been houseruled in his campaign, Polymorph grants the creature type and the natural abilties of the creature type even if you use the tomes. It's core.

However, if everything is houseruled in his campaigns to the point his contributions do not apply to the rules as written, so be it, but his contributions are kind of useless to what I was looking for.

Very well, as I mentioned, he can have the last word, I don't see the point in spending every post explaining the core rules to him.

[Kaelik]

If you think Bards or Factotums are half as versatile as a full caster you seriously need to try playing D&D.

Versatility in D&D does equal power.

You must be functionally retarded. Factotums can do way more things than any fullcaster. Like, everything in D&D, they can do.

It just sucks because they do everything less powerfully. That's the entire point. You have sucked your own cock so hard on versatility equals power that you forgot what versatility actually means. It means doing lots of things. Factotums do lots of things. They just do Wizard things shittier than Wizards, Cleric things shittier than Clerics, Rogue things Shittier than Rogues, ect.

That's the whole point. Wizards are not powerful because they are versatile. They are just Powerful.

A Wizard that casts nothing but glitterdust is still powerful at level 3. A level 1 Wizard with nothing but Color Spray is still powerful. A level 15 Wizard with nothing but defenses and Orbs that do 300 untyped damage are powerful, but not versatile.

Wizards can be versatile too. Absolutely. But they are already powerful. And that power is what matters, not some bullshit versatility.

Gains the type/subtype. Read up on the Outsider type.

You mean the Outsider type you already definitionally had in order to polymorph into another outsider?

Oh fuck, try being less retarded.

Gains the type/subtype. Start by reading: See an (Ex) beside immune to mind control beside the Plant type - me neither. If it's an untyped benifit, Polymorph grants it by RAW. This applies to bonus feats/movement types/natural attacks/immunities - anything that doesn't have a (ex), (su) or (sp) beside it.

There are not 'untyped' benefits. There are benefits. They have types. If it does not have a listed type in a specific instance it is not untyped. And if it were, polymorph would not grant it. Because it does not say "Polymorph grants untyped benefits" anywhere.

It does grant some things, IE those things that are part of types and subtypes (because it grants those) but I did not feel like separating out all the claims you were making, especially because many of them (energy immunities) are sometimes in subtypes, and sometimes not.

[RandomCasualty2]

Maybe so. However, unless it's been houseruled in his campaign, Polymorph grants the creature type and the natural abilties of the creature type even if you use the tomes. It's core.

However, if everything is houseruled in his campaigns to the point his contributions do not apply to the rules as written, so be it, but his contributions are kind of useless to what I was looking for.

Very well, as I mentioned, he can have the last word, I don't see the point in spending every post explaining the core rules to him.

Well, the thing is that the Tomes grant such power that polymorph may well be a trivial increase for a Tome fighter or Barbarian.

pretty much the Tome fighter absolutely destroys the same game challenge.

[Quantumboost]

...I have no idea how I missed polymorph including that "the same type" clause (i.e. not inheriting from alter self). My first thought was that d20srd.org was being retarded again, but apparently it's there too. Whoops.

Gains the type/subtype. Start by reading: See an (Ex) beside immune to mind control beside the Plant type - me neither. If it's an untyped benifit, Polymorph grants it by RAW. This applies to bonus feats/movement types/natural attacks/immunities - anything that doesn't have a (ex), (su) or (sp) beside it.

There are not 'untyped' benefits. There are benefits. They have types. If it does not have a listed type in a specific instance it is not untyped. And if it were, polymorph would not grant it. Because it does not say "Polymorph grants untyped benefits" anywhere.

It does grant some things, IE those things that are part of types and subtypes (because it grants those) but I did not feel like separating out all the claims you were making, especially because many of them (energy immunities) are sometimes in subtypes, and sometimes not.

Additionally, since polymorph explicitly states that you don't get the extraordinary special qualities, that could be rationally argued to override anything you'd otherwise get from "gaining the type and subtype". Meaning that you'd have the Outsider type and the Angel subtype - meaning that any effects contingent on you being an Outsider or Angel work - but not immune to acid, cold, or petrification. If you turned into a Gold Dragon you would still be susceptible to fire but turnable by Water Clerics.

Polymorph is broken - but not because it's too powerful. It's because it's a giant clusterfuck of inanity and headaches that mashes fundamental game mechanics into a giant contradictory soup of confusion and despair. Mostly despair.

[Treantmonklvl20]

Additionally, since polymorph explicitly states that you don't get the extraordinary special qualities, that could be rationally argued to override anything you'd otherwise get from "gaining the type and subtype". Meaning that you'd have the Outsider type and the Angel subtype - meaning that any effects contingent on you being an Outsider or Angel work - but not immune to acid, cold, or petrification. If you turned into a Gold Dragon you would still be susceptible to fire but turnable by Water Clerics.

extraordinary abilities are noted with an (ex). If it's not noted with that, by the rules it is not considered an extraordinary ability.

For example - lets say you turn into something with the (fire) subtype. You gain immunity to fire and vulnerability to cold. These are the natural qualities of the subtype. They aren't extraordinary by the rules or by logic (it would be extraordinary logically for a fire subtype to have no special resistances to fire wouldn't it?)

The same is true for Plants being immune to critical hits or Mind Control. These are natural abilities of having the (plant) type. The same for Oozes not being flanked, or a dragon's immunity to paralysis, etc.

If you didn't get the type and subtype of the creature who's form you have taken, then you wouldn't get the standard qualities of the form (this is part of the change in Pathfinder), however, if you do get the type and subtype - that's what happens.

I'm not defending the rules - Polymorph is terrible in 3.5, I'm just stating what they are.

[Orion]

Shau? I would love to see your dissection of Pathfinder wizards. That said, I can't resist one last crack at Kaelik.

On Versatility: The game isn't actually divided into equal piles of "fighter stuff" "wizard stuff" and "cleric stuff." The Bard can do some of each of those things, but that doesn't make him versatile. A 7th Level Bard, since we're talking about level 7, knows ten non-cantrip spells. He also have 5 distinct bardic music abilities which are basically spells. He can do some shit with skills and weapons and stuff, so charitably, let's rate his versatility as "20 spell-equivalent versatility units."

A 7th Level Wizard who started play with 18 INT would know a total of 21 spells automatically, one more than the arbitrary number I assigned the bard. I didn't actually mean for it to play out that way, but whatever; the important point is that the Wizard can also learn arbitrary numbers of extra spells. If you're playing the way most groups play where he's paying actual gold, and he never friendly wizard or captures a spellbook, he might learn as few as one extra spell per level, putting him at 28 spells known. With enough Spellcraft and Complete Arcane it's possible to "master" a spellbook which makes the spells in it "known" for free. If not playing with that rule, I'm pretty sure you could get enough spellcraft to auto-succeed anyway. If you capture one 7th level wizard's spellbooks during your career that's another 19 spells (NPCs have lower stats). Subtract overlap and you should still know like 40 spells.

This is all without Secret Page abuse or learning non-wizard spells. A 7th level wizards played optimally in a Time game should probably know 60 or 70 spells.

The real clincher for wizard versatility though is that some spells provide a lot more than one option. Clerics get a lot of these, bards get a few, but wizards get MANY. To take a spell which I'm unreasonably fond of, Summon Monster IV. It's generally considered a relatively weak spell, but you can't beat it's versatility. With one casting of Summon Monster IV you can:

-- Grapple Multiple Foes (You know that Evard's Tentacles you love so much? At level 7 it grapples for +15. So do Huge Centipedes. +17 with Augment Summoning. You can get 1d3 of those. Now, personally, I play with the 1d3 set to two because it sucks when you only get one. But If the numbers of enemies is small, they are spread out, or you don't want to catch your own guys, it can be almost as effective a lockdown methoed as Evard's. If huge is too big, the Bison are Large with +13 grapple, 15 with Augment)
-- Crowd Control a LARGE area (1d3 dretches, each casting Stinking Cloud. Weak save DCs but Stinking Cloud fucks you up on a failed save IIRC, and if you are allowed to stack the clouds up passing all the saves could get tricky. Probably they're not supposed to overlap though)
-- Dispel invisibility (Salt Mephit casts Glitterdust. The save DC sucks so as a blinding tactic it's subpar but it auto-negates invisibility.)
-- Negate bows and crossbows (Air Mephit casts Wind Wall)


-- ferry the party across a chasm (1d3 hippogriff mounts)
-- send and receive small items across any distance (assuming lantern archons are allowed to "carry" things)
-- undermine a castle (Earth Mephit casts Soften Earth and Stone)

This is all off the top of my head and a glance at D20 SRD. Now, I'm not saying it's optimal for a 7th level wizard to fill his slots with Summon IV. But I think it's viable. And if he DOES prepare Summon Monster, that pretty much puts paid to any pretense that the Bard was more versatile, doesn't it?

[Orion]

Kaelik, could you please show your work on where you're getting these STR, DEX, and CON values for unpolymorphed PCs? Please remember that you aren't alllowed to add Enhancement bonuses because those carry over to your Poly-form. So does Rage. Arguably wishes and stat-books should too but who fucking knows?

[Kaelik]

On Versatility: The game isn't actually divided into equal piles of "fighter stuff" "wizard stuff" and "cleric stuff." The Bard can do some of each of those things, but that doesn't make him versatile. A 7th Level Bard, since we're talking about level 7, knows ten non-cantrip spells. He also have 5 distinct bardic music abilities which are basically spells. He can do some shit with skills and weapons and stuff, so charitably, let's rate his versatility as "20 spell-equivalent versatility units."

A 7th Level Wizard who started play with 18 INT would know a total of 21 spells automatically, one more than the arbitrary number I assigned the bard. I didn't actually mean for it to play out that way, but whatever; the important point is that the Wizard can also learn arbitrary numbers of extra spells. If you're playing the way most groups play where he's paying actual gold, and he never friendly wizard or captures a spellbook, he might learn as few as one extra spell per level, putting him at 28 spells known. With enough Spellcraft and Complete Arcane it's possible to "master" a spellbook which makes the spells in it "known" for free. If not playing with that rule, I'm pretty sure you could get enough spellcraft to auto-succeed anyway. If you capture one 7th level wizard's spellbooks during your career that's another 19 spells (NPCs have lower stats). Subtract overlap and you should still know like 40 spells.

That has nothing to do with versatility and everything to do with power.

A Wizard is casting X spells per day, and that X could be 5 glitterdusts and 2 slows and 3 stinking clouds and an EBT.

And that's better than anything the Bard can do.

You can't define versatility as "being better at stuff" because that's not versatility, that's power.

The Bard casts spells, and does music and does whatever else he does, and fights in melee.

The Wizard does one thing. Cast spells. Better than the Bard. And while he can cast X different spells. Casting X different spells isn't an actually good idea, or what people really do. They cast powerful spells multiple times.

The Wizard is more powerful, and can be more versatile, but that's not important.

A Sorcerer is less versatile by a wide margin, and is more powerful. And is better. And no one says "Versatility = power, and that's why Bards are better than Sorcerers!" Because Versatility does not equal power. Power equals Power.


Math for Fighters is simple:

Level 1 Super Str fighter: Orc with 18 PB base. 22 start.

Level 7 adds +1 from level 4 = 23.

Level 12: +3 levels +5 wishes to original 22 = 30.

Really not Str focused Fighter at all.

level 1 16PB, Human or Dwarf or something.

Level 7 +1 =17

Level 12 +3 level +5 Wishes = 24.

You'll note that in the case of the lowest starting Str Fighter type I've ever seen, Polymorph, the level 4 spell provides no net Str bonus or size bonus in the forms you gave over an Enlarge Person, and is in fact worse for the level 12 version.

As for wishes transferring over, I have no idea what would make you even think that is even an arguable claim. It's an inherent bonus that instantaneously increases your base stat. The base stat you replace with polymorph.

[shau]

The game as a core pathfinder wizard. I can’t find the free plus 2 to mental stat frank was talking about. I did not look at the new feats or the spells of golarian. I glanced over the class features and did notice some real gems like the illusionist’s ability to cast greater invisibility at eight level as a swift action once a day without even burning a spell slot. I also did not talk much about the image line, which has not been nerfed and can go pretty much anywhere. I don’t do much with the high level spells, since I pretty much stopped caring once the wizard not only broke into crazy town but became their most famous citizen.

First Level Spells

Okay first level, you have all the wizard kill spells, plus you have more hp (8 base hp before con actually), some new abilities, and maybe an extra spell out of bonded object. Plus you can cast off of your forbidden skill list for some reason. Whoohoo!

2nd Level Spells

This is your worse level, since they nerfed glitterdust, web, rope trick, and alter self. Web and alter self are pretty much unusable, but glitterdust is still pretty good. Rope trick is just kinda nerfed, since enemies have to come into your house one at a time and are thus easily dispatched, making this still pretty much an easy way to rest even if you can’t pull the rope up after you. You also can’t hide the rope. I don’t know how exactly you can’t hide it behind a tree or something, maybe it sings and dances.

Non nerfed spells include blindness and ghoul touch, which pretty much take a single target out of the game. Minor Image can also be a great spell and is not harmed in anyway and invisibility means that you can still make they party rogue cry bitter tears with your sneaking prowess. So not that bad after all.

3rd Level Spells

The only thing that seems nerfed here is Sleet Storm, which is odd because I always though I was the only one who used that thing. Slow, stinking cloud, fly, your favorites are all still here, though flying has a skill attached.

Oh yeah, wind wall is here to completely shut down anybody whose character idea is archer. Fortunately for them, you have so many cool options that you will probably never even bother taking this spell

4th Level Spells

My go to spells of Evard’s tentacles and Solid fog have been nerfed. Solid fog to the point that it kinda looks worse than Sleet Storm. I don’t really understand the new grapple rules due to a lack of interest, but I bet black tentacles can still bind up a mage into uselessness. Polymorph is pushed back and different, but nobody casts that spell because nobody knows what it does.

Still, plenty of other spells to take. Confusion is ever so slightly weaker, or at least different, but still ends a whole room of opponents. So does fear, although they seem to have nerfed fear stacking effects. Phantasmal killer is still the first true save or die. Enervation’s there as well. Animate dead let’s you start necromancing up some meat shields.

Oh yeah, scrying is here to, and being a diviner makes the whole scrying thing more reliable, so scry and die just got a boost for no real reason.


5th level spells

And now we pretty much stand tall above everyone else and declare the game to be our bitch. Teleport and a few ways of substituting spell slots for entire new characters are here.

Teleport does not seem to be nerfed. Woot.

Planar binding has been nerfed, but not very effectively. Paizo tried to make the whole process harder, but you can still offer bargains like “be my slave for a year and I won’t cut your legs off” until it works. Actually, I think they nerfed it so you can only hold a creature for your caster level in days this way, which does not really help balance at all. Trading a spell slot that you get back every eight hours for over a week of service from a creature is a totally sweet deal that ruins the game. I haven’t seen the new monster compendium (is there one?) but I bet you can still chain summon. Failing that, you can just have an extra character or 3 that was supposed to be a challenge for the entire party.

Speaking of which, you can still dominate person your way to a slave army. Lasts over a week, feel free to recast.

Baleful Polymorph is different, and might not do crap against enemy spell casters unless they blow two saves, but it is hard to tell. It seems to hint wizards can still cast after being turned into salamanders, but natural spell is still a feat. Still probably a save or die.

Mind Jar still lets you go around as an immortal spirit possessing people and forcing them to off themselves or their friends. Giving the mind gem to your familiar or rogue and letting the rest of the party stay behind while you clear the whole dungeon might be actually easier than trying to fight as a team.

Overland flight is the same. What more do you need?

6th level spells

I think pathfinder has given it up at this point. I have kinda given up hope of the idea that this is going to be meaningfully balanced ever since the save or worse than dies showed up. Contingency is still here. Flesh to stone still works…so does mass suggestion, anything besides acid fog even nerfed here?

7th level spells

Looks like they nerfed finger of death and forcecage and called it a day. Forcecage still has hardness 30, so not a lot can actually get out of it before you kill them. Banishment, insanity, mass hold person, planeshift, etc. mean they are plenty more save or dies. Greater teleport and mage’s mansion are cool utility levels.

8th level spells.

Irresistible dance was nerfed to allow some resistance. Trap the soul still works. So does maze etc. Plenty of spells that kill people.

On the defensive side, you also have clone, which totally gives you an extra life and means that you can actually survive a TPK.

Oh yeah PaO still works. They tried to tie it to their weakass polymorph variants but it lets you change into things not covered by those rules and is still has up to permanent duration, so what the hell.

9th level spells

Gate still screws the BBEG, but costs 10 grand, which is a laughable attempt to stop you. You also only get to control creatures with HD < or equal to your caster level, but I think you can have two of them. Wail of the banshee sucks due to the fact that finger of death sucks. Shapechange is nerfed. I’m not bothering beyond this, you have GATE, you won the game.

So what does this all mean? At first level you are stronger due to new bonuses. When you are relying on your second level spells you are your weakest, because you change from area save or loses to single target save or loses and web’s save or lose or lose is gone, but then again you are handing out greater effects. 3rd level is the same. 4th level takes Solid fog and maybe Black Tentacles away but still has a save or die and wide area save or loses. At fifth level you can totally become a teleporting disembodied wraith that flies all day and can possess people every round. Also you can mindrape enemy humanoids into being your eternal servants or just pluck whatever creatures you want from different planes to be you slaves. And that’s so fucking beyond what fighting men ever get that I really see no reason to continue this discussion.

[Psychic Robot]

Kaelik, giving the fighter a +5 inherent bonus to Strength at level 12 is ridiculous. That's the sort of thing that 99% of DMs are going to ban immediately. If you wanted a more realistic build, you could give him a +4 Strength belt or something.

Look, polymorph is ridiculously good in 3.5. We're not talking about playing Tome games because, quite frankly, Tome games are not what the majority of people play because they have DMs and players who aren't going to try candle of invocation/planar binding cheese. Take that war troll, for example. It's one of the best polymorph forms out there.

Just by using mage armor and polymorph, you become stronger than the fighter, and you have comparable AC. You also get all the nifty special abilities of the war troll, and I'm assuming that includes regeneration and rend qualify.

Will the fighter have a higher attack bonus? Yes. The wizard's going to have around a +16 attack bonus (assuming no enhancement bonuses to his claws), while the fighter will have around a +20 attack bonus. However, the fact that the wizard can get close to the fighter's competency with a single spell is the problem.

[ubernoob]

Guys, Polymorph is a good buff spell. It's still not worth casting. Seriously, let me show you the first couple of rounds of combat for various level wizards:

7: EBT. Combat done because the party just shoots arrows at them until they fucking die.
10: Toss out Baleful Polymorph every round if there are less than three enemies. If more than three, toss out a fog and then toss out baleful polymorph. If more than 5 enemies, just toss out EBT and save yourself a top level slot.
Level 13: Finger of Death or whatever. Pick a SoD. Prismatic Spray is a core AoE SoD which will take out about 25% of enemies, so wins groups and you can just keep tossing out Baleful Polymorph or whatever against single enemies.
Level 15: You have PaO. You don't care about actual polymorph anymore.

Ok, maybe I'd use polymorph at the level 13 example to wrap up an easier combat and save some spell slots.

But really, it comes down to the fact that winning the combat (with either a SoD or no save BC) is going to be FAR more effective than tossing out a Buff with your standard action (even though polymorph is arguably one of the best non-personal buffs in the game).

Yeah, polymorph is great for casting in a dungeon crawl when it doesn't cost actions. The rest of the time you'll wish you had a spell that could either kill someone in one round with >50% chance or something that would keep the enemy from acting.

It's not that polymorph is weak, so much that buffing in combat is retarded beyond retarded. I don't know who you've been talking to TML20, but only retards actually spend actions buffing in combat outside of very niche cases.

[Sock Puppet]

This thread made my night. And I was havin a bad day, too. Something about seeing somebody get pwned by Dogbert just put a smile on my face.

[Treantmonklvl20]

Guys, Polymorph is a good buff spell. It's still not worth casting. Seriously, let me show you the first couple of rounds of combat for various level wizards:

7: EBT. Combat done because the party just shoots arrows at them until they fucking die.
10: Toss out Baleful Polymorph every round if there are less than three enemies. If more than three, toss out a fog and then toss out baleful polymorph. If more than 5 enemies, just toss out EBT and save yourself a top level slot.
Level 13: Finger of Death or whatever. Pick a SoD. Prismatic Spray is a core AoE SoD which will take out about 25% of enemies, so wins groups and you can just keep tossing out Baleful Polymorph or whatever against single enemies.
Level 15: You have PaO. You don't care about actual polymorph anymore.

Ok, maybe I'd use polymorph at the level 13 example to wrap up an easier combat and save some spell slots.

But really, it comes down to the fact that winning the combat (with either a SoD or no save BC) is going to be FAR more effective than tossing out a Buff with your standard action (even though polymorph is arguably one of the best non-personal buffs in the game).

Yeah, polymorph is great for casting in a dungeon crawl when it doesn't cost actions. The rest of the time you'll wish you had a spell that could either kill someone in one round with >50% chance or something that would keep the enemy from acting.

It's not that polymorph is weak, so much that buffing in combat is retarded beyond retarded. I don't know who you've been talking to TML20, but only retards actually spend actions buffing in combat outside of very niche cases.

Evard's is an excellent spell (probably broken too), but it has drawbacks:

1) useless against anyone who is flying
2) useless against anyone who has a high grapple score
3) useless against any mage worth their salt (how many defenses against this spell would you want me to name? 5? 10?)

It's still really, really good, because when the situation is right - it wins the combat, but it remains situational, because when the situation is wrong, you would have been just as well off shooting your crossbow.

The great thing about buffing is it is you can avoid immunities, SR, high saves, etc. Buffing can be used in any situation to improve the position of the party.

That said, I would put it last of the 3 things a wizard should be doing (battlefield control, debuff, buff), but it is still one of those three.

I don't know who you've been talking to TML20, but only retards actually spend actions buffing in combat outside of very niche cases.

Really? This was your comment to my guide that repeatedly suggests Buffing as one of the 3 things a wizard should be doing:

Treant, you've got style. I'll add something useful on the morn. Excellent spell analysis BTW.

You replied a few times after that as well - mentioning liking scribe scroll and you didn't like the idea of swapping it out, and another post saying you didn't favor "save or suck" spells. Not a single post disagreeing with my point about buffing though.

If you want to debate the use of buffing, I'm game, but don't suggest that this is a new position for me...

[ubernoob]

Guys, Polymorph is a good buff spell. It's still not worth casting. Seriously, let me show you the first couple of rounds of combat for various level wizards:

7: EBT. Combat done because the party just shoots arrows at them until they fucking die.
10: Toss out Baleful Polymorph every round if there are less than three enemies. If more than three, toss out a fog and then toss out baleful polymorph. If more than 5 enemies, just toss out EBT and save yourself a top level slot.
Level 13: Finger of Death or whatever. Pick a SoD. Prismatic Spray is a core AoE SoD which will take out about 25% of enemies, so wins groups and you can just keep tossing out Baleful Polymorph or whatever against single enemies.
Level 15: You have PaO. You don't care about actual polymorph anymore.

Ok, maybe I'd use polymorph at the level 13 example to wrap up an easier combat and save some spell slots.

But really, it comes down to the fact that winning the combat (with either a SoD or no save BC) is going to be FAR more effective than tossing out a Buff with your standard action (even though polymorph is arguably one of the best non-personal buffs in the game).

Yeah, polymorph is great for casting in a dungeon crawl when it doesn't cost actions. The rest of the time you'll wish you had a spell that could either kill someone in one round with >50% chance or something that would keep the enemy from acting.

It's not that polymorph is weak, so much that buffing in combat is retarded beyond retarded. I don't know who you've been talking to TML20, but only retards actually spend actions buffing in combat outside of very niche cases.

Evard's is an excellent spell (probably broken too), but it has drawbacks:

1) useless against anyone who is flying
2) useless against anyone who has a high grapple score
3) useless against any mage worth their salt (how many defenses against this spell would you want me to name? 5? 10?)

Here, I'll go into detail:
EL 7 encounters:
8 headed hydra - just cast ray of dizziness and then kite it. No need to blow a 4th level spell.
Huge Air elemental- Glitterdust. Done.
Horde of chokers: EBT, got them all
Ogre Mage: Glitterdust, done
Succubus: Magic Circle pretty much means that you can just afford to use diplomacy or let the enlarged fighter grappler her until she agrees to be your bitch.

So, we've got brute/horde/gish/casty and every single one of those guys has something better for you to do than cast polymorph. EBT is more widely applicable than polymorph, but it doesn't have to be. All that matters is that polymorph isn't something you are willing to spend a standard action on because you almost always have a better action.

Remember kids, I'm not saying that polymorph isn't handy for pre-combat buffing. I'm just saying that you're a retard if you actually cast it in combat on a regular basis.

It's still really, really good, because when the situation is right - it wins the combat, but it remains situational, because when the situation is wrong, you would have been just as well off shooting your crossbow.

The great thing about buffing is it is you can avoid immunities, SR, high saves, etc. Buffing can be used in any situation to improve the position of the party.

You know what else gets around SR and high saves? Solid fog. Pretty cool, eh?

That said, I would put it last of the 3 things a wizard should be doing (battlefield control, debuff, buff), but it is still one of those three.

I don't know who you've been talking to TML20, but only retards actually spend actions buffing in combat outside of very niche cases.

Really? This was your comment to my guide that repeatedly suggests Buffing as one of the 3 things a wizard should be doing:

Treant, you've got style. I'll add something useful on the morn. Excellent spell analysis BTW.

You replied a few times after that as well - mentioning liking scribe scroll and you didn't like the idea of swapping it out, and another post saying you didn't favor "save or suck" spells. Not a single post disagreeing with my point about buffing though.

If you want to debate the use of buffing, I'm game, but don't suggest that this is a new position for me...

Umm, yeah. Buffing in combat is retarded. You buff outside of combat. There's a reason that 10 min/level spells like heroism and hr/level spells like greater magic weapon exist.





TL;DR: TML20, show me ONE instance where a wizard would be better off casting polymorph in combat instead of casting another better spell. I'm willing to bet you can. I'm also willing to bet that against the vast majority of enemies this isn't the case. And fundamentally, if polymorph isn't your go to option, but rather gets usage on the same level as dismissal, then polymorph totally is a niche spell to prepare for quirky situations and not something totally powerful.

[FatR]

It's not that polymorph is weak, so much that buffing in combat is retarded beyond retarded. I don't know who you've been talking to TML20, but only retards actually spend actions buffing in combat outside of very niche cases.

In my experience, GM must really go out of his way to ambush a party, if he wishes to deny them time to buff before combat. This doesn't seem to be happen often in actual games.

[ubernoob]

It's not that polymorph is weak, so much that buffing in combat is retarded beyond retarded. I don't know who you've been talking to TML20, but only retards actually spend actions buffing in combat outside of very niche cases.

In my experience, GM must really go out of his way to ambush a party, if he wishes to deny them time to buff before combat. This doesn't seem to be happen often in actual games.

In parties without mindsight wizards? It's not actually that hard. The least stealthy member of the party is the one the monster has to detect to keep the party from getting a surprise round. A CR 7 elemental has +11/12 to spot/listen vs the wizard's +4 or so move silently. A succubus has +19 to spot/listen.

There are an awful lot of monsters that the PCs won't be able to sneak up on. You only get pre-buff time if you're aware of the monster before it becomes aware of you.