3.5's problems?

[Draco_Argentum]

Sorry, Draco, you don't get to lazy your way to a conclusion just because you invoked the Golden Means fallacy.

Show me a thread were a LotR example has been productive then.

Regardless, anyone who even just takes a glance at the D&D rules knows that the game borrows more from Lord of the Rings than any other source.

They got sued for borrowing too hard. The depth of similarity isn't in dispute.

[Just another user]

The fact is that LotR doesn´t make any fucking sense, and the only reason they don´t solve everything day one by having the elven high magicians cut a hole in Mount Doom with their literally Ëarth-shatteric magic and then have the fucking eagles fly over all the bullshit obstacles and solve everything all at once

-Username17

Indeed, I thought the same thing when those eagles popped up at the end..."you mean Frodo didn't have to do all that carrying all across the whole freakin' continent?"

A few days riding an eagle, and it's game over. Boring story, to be sure, but, considering considering all the wasted effort, I reckon everyone involved (including Sauron) would've preferred it.

Except that the moment the eagles fly over Mordor Sauron see them, and them he could send the flying nazgul against them or start a big storm or the valar knows what else. Frodo was able to reach the crack of doom because he was able to goes in unnoticed.

And about using the elven earth-shattering magic, the problem is that it is, well, earth-shattering. The last time they used that kind of magic, in the attack against Angband, half of the continent fell down into the sea. It would be a little pointless defeat Sauron if it means destroy your land in the doing. (even assuming there were still elves able to do such magic, and that Sauron could not simply oppose his power to their if they tried, after all magic in middle earth works quite differently than that in D&D).

And no, Mordor doesn't have fucking hell-hawks, as evidenced by the part where the Eagles flew into fucking mordor no problem.

You mean the part after the ring was destroyed and Sauron was turned into a formless and powerless spirit and all the things created with the ring's power was turned to dust?

[Korwin]

Regardless, anyone who even just takes a glance at the D&D rules knows that the game borrows more from Lord of the Rings than any other source. I mean, seriously, Halfing/Elf/Orc/Dwarf/Troll. With D&D's depth of LotR-borrowing it is completely appropriate--even mandatory--to analyze just how much gaming philosophy from that story got into the game it's based off of.

So some names are similiar... so what?

Trolls dont get turned into stone by sunlight.
Elfs or Elbs arent overpowerfull compared to humans.
Wizards can do more than Gandalf, there are Sorcerers (who can do more than Gandalf).
You could argue that Gandalf is a Cleric, if he's not then where do D&D Clerics come from? If he is a Cleric, what the fuck with Wizards and Sorcerers?
Orcs do age in D&D?

There are so much things in D&D that arent LotR, I could go on and on.
Maybe it was different in earlier version. (Started D&D with 3.5).

Dont remember much of the Silmarilon, but thats another "Zeitalter".

[Just another user]

Not to mention, Sauron couldn't even detect the thing unless someone was wearing it. And it's corruptive influence went down as you went away from Mt.Doom. So I don't really know why they didn't just send Frodo on one of the boats with the elves who were leaving Middle Earth, and then just drop it in the middle of the ocean. Good luck finding it there.

Didn't you read the book? They explain that. Even without the ring Sauron was already winning, with the ring he would have been invincible, but even without it, as long as it exist even if in the deep of the ocean, Sauron could never have been fully destroyed, even if they defeated him, which at that point was highly improbable, he just would have reformed somewhere else as strong as before, so the only thing to do to get rid of him was to destroy the ring.

Also the ocean is not eternal, as long as the ring exist someone could find and then you would have another Dark Lord.

[FatR]

I mean, for a guy who spent all that time developing an actual language for Elvish and a bunch of legends and songs for Middle Earth, you'd think that he'd actually bother to think up a concrete plotline, or at least explain why these plans wouldn't work.

Well, and you'd think that people would actually bother to read a book, and actually pay some attention while reading, before talking about its plot, but as this thread evidences, this is not so. (Throwing the Ring into the ocean was specifically discussed in LotR, and the reason why it wasn't nearly as dangerous during the events of Hobbit was discussed at length.)

[RandomCasualty2]

Didn't you read the book? They explain that. Even without the ring Sauron was already winning, with the ring he would have been invincible, but even without it, as long as it exist even if in the deep of the ocean, Sauron could never have been fully destroyed, even if they defeated him, which at that point was highly improbable, he just would have reformed somewhere else as strong as before, so the only thing to do to get rid of him was to destroy the ring.

Yes, they gave a reason and it sucked.

Honestly I don't even know why people cared what Sauron did. He was a giant floating eye that couldn't really hurt you except if you carried the ring which let him try to corrupt you. It wasn't so important that you destroyed the ring, so much as that you prevented him from getting it.

Sauron wasn't winning the war, the orcs were. You could seriously kill off Sauron and if the orcs kept attacking, they'd have won. And of course, I'm not even certain the orcs were even winning, given that they destroyed Isenguard and Gondor fought off the invasion, pushing them back into Moria.

Seriously, without destroying the ring, they managed to basically fight off the entirety of Sauron's forces and push them back into Mordor, continuing the standoff that Gondor had for centuries before that.

The plan of sending Frodo (or really any small group) into Mordor with the ring was a pretty foolish one. You allow for the possibility that the ring falls into enemy hands (it nearly did quite a few times), and then you're really screwed.

You're better off just learning to live with the giant eyeball and dropping the ring to the bottom of the ocean. Seriously if the Nazgul want to spend thousands of years looking for it, let them. They barely found it when Frodo had it, and that required lighting signal fires on Weathertop and shit. These are guys who literally can't sense the ring when it's under their noses, so long as someone isn't wearing it.

I find it really hard to believe that 9 guys searching the entire ocean would have any realistic chance of turning up anything. The ocean is fucking huge. Modern search teams have difficulty finding sunken ships in the ocean, and that's at shallow depth. Finding something as small as a ring would be a fucking miracle.

[Just another user]

RC2, just read the book, I will not say 'again', because I doubt you read it even the first time.

[RandomCasualty2]

RC2, just read the book, I will not say 'again', because I doubt you read it even the first time.

I love it when people give a completely vague defense as a counterpoint.

Yeah, just go reread a 1000+ page novel because there's an explanation in there somewhere.

Yeah... um ok.... if you say so.

[Just another user]

RC2, just read the book, I will not say 'again', because I doubt you read it even the first time.

I love it when people give a completely vague defense as a counterpoint.

Yeah, just go reread a 1000+ page novel because there's an explanation in there somewhere.

Yeah... um ok.... if you say so.

Well, what I should do? rewrite those 1000+ pages while I try to explain to you where and why you are wrong?

[TavishArtair]

Clerics were basically a van Helsing take. They were seriously created for a character who was intended to slay a particular vampire PC. He was given lots of anti-undead moves, including the ability to fix any kind of bad-touching the undead would put on him, and some decent, if not fighter-scale competence in battle (note: way back when, fighters actually outfought clerics).

Nowadays they're kind of that plus beefy.

[Murtak]

RC2, just read the book, I will not say 'again', because I doubt you read it even the first time.

I love it when people give a completely vague defense as a counterpoint.

Yeah, just go reread a 1000+ page novel because there's an explanation in there somewhere.

Yeah... um ok.... if you say so.

From what I vaguely remember:
- The ring wants to be found. It actively abandoned Gollum in order to get out of the caves and tunnels.
- The orcs won't fight without Sauron forcing them.
- Sauron is definitely able to at least influence a sizeable portion of Middle-Earth's leaders.
- Without Sauron there are no Ringwraiths.
- The ring is able to corrupt pretty much anyone, given enough time.
- The ring is able to turn anyone powerful enough into something at least as dangerous as Sauron.
- Sauron does not just command orcs (and trolls and ringwraiths) but also legions of corrupted and/or bribed men.

So dropping the ring into the ocean will most likely just ensure a fish scooping it up, getting caught and the ring ending up on a random fisherman, at which point there is a decent chance of it gradually making it's way back to Sauron.

Also Sauron clearly is winning the war. Not the orcs, which were pretty much pushed back into the wilderness while Sauron was weak, but Sauron. He recruited armies, organized sieges, influenced at the very least Saruman and Denethor, sent ringwraiths and spying animals around everywhere and makes it damn near impossible for the good guys to scry.

All of this is repeatedly explained in both the books and the movies. So I'll second JAU in telling you to read the books, as you apparently didn't do so yet (nothing wrong with that - they are not that good, really).

[hogarth]

Clerics were basically a van Helsing take. They were seriously created for a character who was intended to slay a particular vampire PC. He was given lots of anti-undead moves, including the ability to fix any kind of bad-touching the undead would put on him, and some decent, if not fighter-scale competence in battle (note: way back when, fighters actually outfought clerics).

I though the two main sources for the original D&D cleric were Bishop Odo/Archbishop Turpin (mace-swinging armored guy) and Moses/Aaron (sticks to snakes, part water, create water).

[Lago PARANOIA]

Don't forget Elijah and his various stupid miracles, most notably flame strike, raise dead, bear summoning, and intolerance.

[Lago PARANOIA]

That's exactly what I'm talking about, Murtak. It's an unimaginative railroad plot that's just there to pad time.

1) Dumbass MacGuffin artifact that makes you lose the plot unless you destroy it? Check.

2) Only one ridiculously contrived way to destroy said dumbass MacGuffin? Check.

3) Path to destroying dumbass MacGuffin annoyingly linear with no alternative routes? Check. By the way, I don't care if that's the 'shortest' route, putting things on a timer and then making the route you want players to go the 'shortest' is a classic railroading trick.

4) Ways of getting to dumbass MacGuffin destroyer needlessly limited? Check. Can't fly there, can't send something really fast, can't teleport there, can't open a portal, can't mind control someone and have it dump off the ring, can't make yourself invisible + insubstantial, can't turn into mist, etc.

Don't get me wrong. The padding is interesting to watch if you're not in the driver's seat but it's completely inappropriate if you are.

So why do I bring it up other than the fact that the LotR plot is kind of charmingly amateurish in its hamhandedness? Because a lot of people think that LotR is really fucking cool (including me) and since D&D practically has slimy father and daughter incestuous sex with the game they think that a lot of LotR's you can't be cool but NPCs can be cool/railroady elements should be ported over, too.

[hogarth]

Don't forget Elijah and his various stupid miracles, most notably flame strike, raise dead, bear summoning, and intolerance.

Bear-summoning is Elisha, not Elijah.

[Murtak]

Lago: I am not defending LotR here. I kind of like the books (though I like the hobbit more), but they are at best moderately good, with not too many plot holes and a somewhat believable world. Many books can claim as much. I was just annoyed with RC for posting blatantly wrong stuff.

[Username17]

I think he got it in one:

They gave a reason and it sucked.

The reason they don't fly there on eagles is because the story would have been over. The reasons given in the book are lame beyond belief.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

Don't forget about create food, raise dead, and control weather.

[TavishArtair]

Speaking of those orcs as being the actual threat, I always just kind of assumed that they couldn't fly so high that dozens of orcs would not shoot at the eagles flying overhead until they rolled a 20 and downed the damned thing. Which unfortunately, being that there would be as many as a hundred orcs doing this, is statistically likely, not the other thing.

Yeah, eagles bail everyone out while the orcs are demoralized and in disarray, but I kinda figured even then Tolkien kind of glossed over the potshots in their direction.

[Psychic Robot]

Who really cares if the eagles did or didn't do something? If Elrond weren't a pussy, he would have stabbed Isildur and thrown the ring in himself. Let's face it: Tolkien's writing just wasn't that great. Personally, I find LotR to be boring in execution, but that doesn't mean that I dislike the ideas in the setting.

[Mask_De_H]

I'm really surprised actually with all the bullshit d20 products they produced that they didn't try this split. I mean if you're going to make D20 modern, d20 future, d20 Call of Cthulhu and tons of other d20 crap, I don't know why they didn't just start out by forking the D&D product line. Hell, they could even use D&D and AD&D brand names. 4E can be regular D&D, because it's basic as hell, and the high level edition could be AD&D, because it's way more advanced and crazy.

The funny thing is that there are two possible contenders for this crown: MnM 2e and BESM d20. BESM d20 is scaled for "lolanime" levels of power, far past the 9000 benchmark. However, BESM d20 is a steaming pile of shit. The actual Tri-Stat system version is pretty good, but falls into the trap that most free-choice games do.

Mutants and Masterminds aims to be a superhero game and ends up being better suited to play a freeform high-level D&D campaign. Warriors and Warlocks along with Mecha and Manga are implicit with this, natch. Again, workable and even good, but certain concepts just don't fucking work given power disparity.

It's surprising that WotC didn't do this by themselves, but hey, we got 4E out of their attempt to placate the Basic D&D crowd, and look how that turned out.

[RandomCasualty2]

It's surprising that WotC didn't do this by themselves, but hey, we got 4E out of their attempt to placate the Basic D&D crowd, and look how that turned out.

Yeah, honestly I can't understand why they haven't decided to split the games. There's enough of a market I think for them to sell to both high magic players and people who want to play LotR style, to the point that they could make two separate RPGs and avoid the problems of one playstyle contaminating the other. Since you honestly can't play them side by side well at all. And having Aragon develop into a god warrior typically isn't what people want. If they're playing Aragorn they pretty much want to stay playing that, and if they want to play a high magic OTT character, then they probably want that from the beginning. There's not really much incentive to have a game that transitions itself from LotR to mythic power.