It's Time to put up or shut up.

[Orion]

Note: It's not the case that I think we need a clearly defined balance point for everything.

PrCs will be all over the place, and are in the original tomes. That's fine, since they're explicitly not endorsed for balance, per Frank's original rant.

I'm also somewhat okay with some base classes being better than others. It's not ideal, but if we farm classes out to various writers, it's likely to happen.

What I'd most want to avoid would be game-breaking spells, spheres, and feats mixed innocuously in with the rest. Feats pose an especially problematic issue. There's no particular limit to how many interesting feats people could write up, but we don't want thousands of them in the official PDF. Furthermore, each feat gets more broken with each additional feat printed. The Tomes did away with feat trees, giving enough benefits to one feat to grant an entire sphere of confidence. That's fine, but it means getting more feats should give character horizontal breadth rather than vertical power.

If you can stack three or four tome combat feats onto one action or attack sequence, things go to crazytown pretty fast. And the Races of War system, which was written with about three dozen feats, seriously groans under the weight of new ones no matter how benign the feats seem individually.

That said, there are several fairly clear-cut demands for new feats that are not currently met in the official canon. In particular, a Tome Improved Unarmed Strike. (Unless we just grant PHB-Improved Unarmed Strike to all PCs for free, which has some significant downsides).

A committee should be convened to determine how many and what kind of new feats we want. (Tome Metamagic, y/n? Personally I'm deeply unhappy with all the extant Den metamagic feats).

[Quantumboost]

Tomes already threw the Open Lock skill away, and there's that whole Nice Skills thread on IMOI, so the skill list isn't constant.

Beyond things like folding together Craft/Perform subskills, the Profession change, and removing skills that actually don't do anything (like Open Lock), I say we should endeavour to keep the skill list as static as reasonably possible. The Tomes should be intercompatible and as compatible with the Monster Manual as possible. That pretty much means that we need to have the skill list static; no removing skills, and probably no adding new skills.

Actual backwards compatibility, not Pathfinderesque "backwards compatibility".

[Orion]

Quantumboost:

I'm with you, but want to make sure it becomes official policy. I also vote for axing Decipher Script. Maybe even Speak Languages. But keep spot/listen and hide/move silent, and yes, even climb/jump/tumble/swim.

If there's a strong skill reform camp, I'd consent to including a rant about backwards compatibility, and a suggested skill revision with which the rest of the Tome was explicitly non-compatible.

[Apalala]

Quantumboost:

I'm with you, but want to make sure it becomes official policy. I also vote for axing Decipher Script. Maybe even Speak Languages. But keep spot/listen and hide/move silent, and yes, even climb/jump/tumble/swim.

If there's a strong skill reform camp, I'd consent to including a rant about backwards compatibility, and a suggested skill revision with which the rest of the Tome was explicitly non-compatible.

Speak languages, decipher script, and forgery are all pretty shitty skills. Roll them into linguistics though and you have something that's is halfway--only half--decent. Pathfinder does lots wrong, but linguistics makes sense.

[Orion]

I'd also be in favor of an editing pass-through on the F&K tomes to do things like:

Combine and harmonize the Dungeonomicon and Book of Gears discussion of Traps.
Explicitly spell out how normal unarmed attacks work with Monk slams
Fix Pre-reqs on classes that require, for instance, feats which no longer exist
Add to each casting class a source list for the spell list


Possibly: Buff Fiendish brute, Add more armors, lengteh essay on highlevel play

[CatharzGodfoot]

Any complaints with making a normal unarmed strike a size-appropriate slam (which most humanoids aren't proficient in)? Then include it in simple or martial weaponry.

[Orion]

well, it would mean everybody with a one-handed weapon and no shield would get a free punch at -5 on a full attack. Not especially overpowered, but it could slow down the game.

Actually, if you could use that secondary slam to trip or grapple, it might change the dynamics quite a bit, since a touch attack at -5 is reasonable.

[CatharzGodfoot]

well, it would mean everybody with a one-handed weapon and no shield would get a free punch at -5 on a full attack. Not especially overpowered, but it could slow down the game.

Actually, if you could use that secondary slam to trip or grapple, it might change the dynamics quite a bit, since a touch attack at -5 is reasonable.

Yeah. I think that's a good thing, actually.

[Koumei]

I'm also not happy with the majority of new Metamagic feats - including the ones I wrote. We should look at the idea of "They don't scale as such: your spell levels scale, meaning the feat does by default. They don't alter spell level but they don't just do a bigger version of the spell. They do *something* like shoving people about the place."

Perhaps something like the (Complete Garbage?) feat where, if you cast a combination of elemental spells on someone, they're affected more harshly (Acid then Fire sickens them with fumes, Cold then Sonic does something as their brittle bones shatter etc.)

And if we want a feat for unarmed fighting, I could do that in my sleep.

Anyway, some things I feel capable of tackling:
*Revised Diplomancy Rules (my thoughts: put in limitations, example situations and uses, the ability to actually resist it, and possibly a feat or two that make use of it in lots-of-debate scenarios.)

*High Adventure on the Upper Planes (for Evildoers and other)

*Disease (Frank said how he sees it working, and it makes enough sense to me: it "attacks" once per X time units for a total of Y attacks, dealing Z effect if you fail a Fort save, dealing even more if you fail it badly.)

*Wilderness Adventure (mostly low-mid level stuff)

*High Adventure on the Inner Planes (easy)

Which of these does the Kaiser feel I should tackle next, and what specifically needs to be addressed?

[Quantumboost]

A couple things I've been looking at are the White Mage (JE's is more of a cleric-like concept, and Curator looks a lot like it would fit in the Celestial Conduit spot), Magical Physics, and some contribution work to the Alignment bit (mostly along the lines of the "philosophies for each plane" lines).

Have some stuff generated for the above three, though not that close to finishing.

Also, for Book of Gears, the stuff that's missing is:

• A rework of crafting non-magic items (what we have is incomplete)
• Specific constructs
• Denizens of Mechanus (Formians, Inevitables)
• Classes: Artificer, Gadgeteer, Prestige Classes
• Thinking "High Adventure on the Cordant Planes" would fit in nicely here (Mechanus, The Outlands, Limbo)

I have a seed writeup for the Formians started as far as that goes.

[virgil]

Book of Gears is also missing rules for magic items, which needs to be differentiated with the different uses for them as listed in the Book of Gears.

[IGTN]

I'll just post the abridged version of my notes for the Book of Elements I've been working on here. I've marked as "done" things that I'm mostly not writing more for; there's not much I consider quite ready, though. The way I've been working on this, I may go back to something I consider done and rewrite a paragraph or two, or move them into another section. Things in bold aren't started.

What are the Elements? (done)
What is Magic? (done. Includes a fair bit on what magic shouldn't do)
Races & Classes
- Mephits (drafted)
- Elementalist Spell List
- Alchemist (rewrite mine)
- Shadowcaster (drafted)
- Bonus classes based on the Fire Mage, but unlike the ones already done (depends on class)
- Plus it eats my The Elements thread and probably Frank's Genie (done).
Prestige Classes
- Nothing done except very general notes
Spheres&Feats
- Eats the Elements project (done)
- Power up blasting to and not beyond level-appropriateness
- Uses of Raw Chaos
How Stuff Works: How Elementals Work
- Life of an Elemental (done)
- Elemental Contracts
- Elemental Items
- Maybe something on a new planar currency from the elemental planes, but maybe not.
The Inner Planes
- Crossing the Planes (done. Includes Deep Ethereal and Deep Shadow)
- Alignments/Philosophies of the inner planes (done)
- Societies of the Inner Planes (about half-done)
Environments of the Inner Planes (done, including a few that aren't. Easily the largest chapter in the book)
High Adventure on the Inner Planes (most planes aren't even started. Putting down adventure seeds as they come, which is slow going)
Ruling the Inner Planes (started)

I can post what I have of sections I've finished to be cannibalized for the Tome of Tiamat if people ask for them. I don't want to post the whole thing until it's done or dead, though, because I haven't been revising it very intently and, for something like this, I'd rather have it polished before I publish it, plus I want to keep the option open to change some idea somewhere that I reference in a bunch of places. In all, what I have so far isn't that bad, considering that I just started it at the beginning of the month, so it should only be a couple more months, counting editing time.

As for the other books, I'll agree with putting High Adventure on the Cordant Planes in the Book of Gears. It has to go somewhere, after all, and the Book of Gears was missing a place to adventure in.

[Draco_Argentum]

*Revised Diplomancy Rules (my thoughts: put in limitations, example situations and uses, the ability to actually resist it, and possibly a feat or two that make use of it in lots-of-debate scenarios.)

The concepts from aWoD can probably be stolen and fitted into d20 mechanics.

[Koumei]

I was totally planning on doing that.

[CatharzGodfoot]

"Advanced communication rules". I like. I don't think it would be for everyone, because they're designed for a game that's about as heavy on the talking as D&D is on the combat (and vice-versa). However, they are the best damn' rules for talking that I've seen.

[RandomCasualty2]

*Revised Diplomancy Rules (my thoughts: put in limitations, example situations and uses, the ability to actually resist it, and possibly a feat or two that make use of it in lots-of-debate scenarios.)

The concepts from aWoD can probably be stolen and fitted into d20 mechanics.

I doubt it.

The main advantage of aWoD is that you're going to have obvious caps on how good diplomacy can get. Your average guy has probably like 5-7 dice in social, and the best diplomat may have up to 20 or so. Which means you can build within those limits. You can actually set it such that the numbers prevent craziness.

d20 has the problem that it's skill system is just fucking totally batshit nuts, where you can push things to crazy levels if you want. Now for some skills, like climb or spellcraft, you probably don't even care if someone has a +100 to a check, but when you make skills capable of mind controlling people permanently, that's bad shit.

Really the d20 skill system needs to be restarted from the ground up to make it viable for anything game changing.

[Mask_De_H]

*Revised Diplomancy Rules (my thoughts: put in limitations, example situations and uses, the ability to actually resist it, and possibly a feat or two that make use of it in lots-of-debate scenarios.)

The concepts from aWoD can probably be stolen and fitted into d20 mechanics.

Seconded.

[CatharzGodfoot]

*Revised Diplomancy Rules (my thoughts: put in limitations, example situations and uses, the ability to actually resist it, and possibly a feat or two that make use of it in lots-of-debate scenarios.)

The concepts from aWoD can probably be stolen and fitted into d20 mechanics.

I doubt it.

The main advantage of aWoD is that you're going to have obvious caps on how good diplomacy can get. Your average guy has probably like 5-7 dice in social, and the best diplomat may have up to 20 or so. Which means you can build within those limits. You can actually set it such that the numbers prevent craziness.

d20 has the problem that it's skill system is just fucking totally batshit nuts, where you can push things to crazy levels if you want. Now for some skills, like climb or spellcraft, you probably don't even care if someone has a +100 to a check, but when you make skills capable of mind controlling people permanently, that's bad shit.

So, the best Diplomacy skill check you're likely to get in D&D is 23 (skill) + 20 (competence) + 2 (racial) + 3 (feat) + 2 (bullshit armor) + Cha. Assume a base Charisma of 18, +6 (bullshit race) +5 (levels) +7 (item) = 36. So your final bonus is +23 + 20 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 13 = +63. The worst bonus you're likely to get at level 20 is -2. That is pretty divergent.

[schpeelah]

You're probably able to have a lot more with some crazy dumpster diving, but whatever.
I vote that we also steal the concept of background skills. Because seriously if for no other reason, D&D is a Role Playing Game with a lot of support for dungeon crawl. We want this system to handle both groups that just want to kill monsters and those who will mostly talk with NPCs just like in any other RPG. Preferably both at once if they want to change the focus mid-campaign. Which means you want 'adventuring skills' and 'RP aid skills' to be acquired independently.

High Adventure on the Upper Planes

What do you think about the Planewalker stuff:
Planar Renovation Project: Arcadia and Bytopia, The Harmonious Republic Of Arcadia and Against the Giants: YSGARDIAN WARS STYLE? Can be mined for ideas or not?

[Koumei]

They can totally be mined for ideas.

Also, regarding "What can Diplomancy do?", should we assume hardcore optimisation in the numbers, or would it be better to shake the system up and down a bit and let some numbers fall out? By which I mean "Actually change things so numbers don't get so huge"

For instance, skill ranks: A-OK
Charisma mod: it can't get that bad - assume a reasonably good Cha
Items: we could totally limit item bonuses to skills - especially if the games are going to be run with the assumption that players only have X magic items "on" at a time.
Feats: for Diplomancy specifically, I can think of about +8 total, assuming they all stack. That's using regular D&D feats, so um, yeah.
Synergy: +6, and they'll all just take that, so we take that into account
Spells: fuck off and die
Class features: there are few that really do this. Occasionally they give a bonus regarding certain types of people, or say "While clapping your hands and shouting, add your Cha bonus again" (a shitty class) or "double your Skill Focus bonus" (an even shittier class).

So items and spells look like the big offenders. It wouldn't hurt the game to stop them from giving enormous skill bonuses in general.

[traverse]

Also, for Book of Gears, the stuff that's missing is:

• Specific constructs
• Classes: Artificer, Gadgeteer, Prestige Classes

I'm currently working on (slowly, as I'm also prepping for NaNoWriMo) rules and entries for artificers wanting to build primarily non-magical constructs as per the Created Monsters entry in the BoG, and have a 70% finished tome class that could pass for a gadgeteer, based on some work I'd done previously. That being said, I don't know exactly what the tome gadgeteer would have been meant to accomplish. I'm looking to replace the Upgrades! entries, and maybe retool the components to not be so blah, and would love some fresh ideas. (Or, you know, someone can totally one-up me. )

[CatharzGodfoot]

Yeah, a D&D 'gadgeteer' is an odd concept to work with when you already have the wizard. It's hard to get more gadgeteer than that.

[Draco_Argentum]

d20 has the problem that it's skill system is just fucking totally batshit nuts, where you can push things to crazy levels if you want. Now for some skills, like climb or spellcraft, you probably don't even care if someone has a +100 to a check, but when you make skills capable of mind controlling people permanently, that's bad shit.

Thats true now though anyway. So adding more interesting options won't make it worse even if the numbers are left completely alone. Not that fixing the numbers would hurt.

For a start there needs to be a level appropriate defense against social moves for everyone. Will saves improve with level automatically, the same should apply to defending against diplomacy.

[Murtak]

Also, regarding "What can Diplomancy do?", should we assume hardcore optimisation in the numbers, or would it be better to shake the system up and down a bit and let some numbers fall out?

Assuming optimization makes the system utterly unplayable for everyone else. I vaguely remember seeing a +40 diplomacy modifier on a 6th level character. Even disregarding this, a 6th level bard with 20 charisma, 9 ranks in bluff, skill focus, a +10 item, +3 synergy bonus and +30 from glibness is at +60. Anyone else is off the chart. Strictly controlling the possible modifiers is the only way to allow "normal characters" to use the skill at all. And by normal I mean "max ranks, max stat and skill focus".

Class features: there are few that really do this. Occasionally they give a bonus regarding certain types of people, or say "While clapping your hands and shouting, add your Cha bonus again" (a shitty class) or "double your Skill Focus bonus" (an even shittier class).

There is a class level that gives you in-combat-diplomacy (normally a +20 modifier).

So items and spells look like the big offenders. It wouldn't hurt the game to stop them from giving enormous skill bonuses in general.

I propose this: Skill ranks + stat modifier. Nothing else. Items can just give you max ranks in the skill. If you insist on more bonuses at a total of maybe +4 tops from classes or feats, but I am not sure it's needed. If you are using tome-like skills you can just have skill focus unlock the next higher ability instead of giving a numerical bonus.

So: Skill ranks + stat. Items give virtual skill ranks. Skill focus unlocks the next higher ability.

[Koumei]

Works for me.

Incidentally, why is Bard in Tome of Trees? My image of the bard is "sleazy guy who sings" / "summoner" (see: Bard's Tale) / the power of Useless.

Because I could easily make a cheerleader type class or a Sonic-dealing "Noise Marine" with abilities that are puns on rock songs. But I just don't get the bit about trees being involved.