Ultimate Showdown: 3.0 vs. 3.5

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:12 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Weeaboo Fightan Magic is a criticism of the book that handing out (or attempting to hand out) powers that can keep up with actual magic makes the game 'too anime'.

No offense, but fighters shooting fire and teleporting is pretty anime. (In before "Death Note is anime!")

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:15 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote:Weeaboo Fightan Magic is a criticism of the book that handing out (or attempting to hand out) powers that can keep up with actual magic makes the game 'too anime'.
No offense, but fighters shooting fire and teleporting is pretty anime. (In before "Death Note is anime!")

Please don't say dumb things like that.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:16 pm

The Mystic Theurge was introduced in the 3.5 DMG. The 98& of the WotC forums crapped their pants in fear of how overpowered they thought it was. The Moral: you can only trust 2% of the WotC forums.

Though, there were a number of Veddy Nice exploits you could pull with it.

1) Difference Engine: Become a Level 3 Cleric / Level 3 Wizard / Level 2 Mystic Theurge. Lose two levels of cleric and two levels of wizard. Advance the rest of your levels in Mystic Theurge from now on.

2) 3.5E published a lot of compressed full-caster classes. So obviously if you were able to snag two of these (like Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord) you took a shot in the nuts NOW for Real Ultimate Power sometime in the future.

3) Mystic Theurge helped bridge over the gap between spellcasting PrCs that advanced any kind of spellcasting but required a certain kind of spellcasting to get into the door. For example, Incantatrix. Incantatrixes advance any kind of spellcasting (awesome) but require you to cast 3rd-level arcane spells (not so awesome). While I don't think anyone would be willing to take a 5-level divine spellcasting hit, 3 levels became more manageable--of course then you'd wonder why you just weren't a wizard who took expansion options that gave you cleric bennies, but, eh, on the Character Optimization boards as long as you got 9th level spells by level 20 who gave a rat's ass, amirite?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:20 pm

On Amazon you can get a new 3rd edition PHB for 15 bucks or a used one for $4.
You can get a new 3.5 PHB for 19 bucks or a used one for $39.

While there was a big selloff in anticipation of 4e, 4th edition's actual existence has not devalued the 3e or 3.5 stock at all.

-Username17

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:24 pm

I can barely stomach losing even a single level of caster progression nowadays. It takes something crazy, like component-free spells or something, to get me to slow even Wizard progression by a level.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:26 pm

Oh, I can't imagine doing it either especially with ridiculous PrCs like the Red Wizard of Thay that give you something to be doing with those level anyway.

But like I said, on the Char OP boards all that matters is getting level 9 spells by level 20. Even if you spend 14 of those levels as a goddamned bard or having casting WORSE than a bard.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:27 pm

Yep, they're a little to focused on the max-level picture, which is indicative of some sort of childhood brain damage, I think.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:27 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: Random Casualty, THOSE ARE ALL WARRIOR NERFS!

Did you even read the list?

How is monsters directly avoiding standup fights and just relying on laying down 50,000 symbols of death/pain/insanity or having no way to counter a grapple a good thing fro a warrior.

Dragon grabs you. Wizard just dimension doors out, fighter is stuck there cause he can't beat a huge ass grapple check.

That shit is not good for fighters.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:28 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:On Amazon you can get a new 3rd edition PHB for 15 bucks or a used one for $4.
You can get a new 3.5 PHB for 19 bucks or a used one for $39.

That settles it for me.

I can live with used books. And while the differences are debatable, 3.5 is clearly less than 5 times as good as 3.0.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:28 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: You can get a new 3.5 PHB for 19 bucks or a used one for $39.

What?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:32 pm

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: You can get a new 3.5 PHB for 19 bucks or a used one for $39.
What?

I did not make those prices up. It's because the used asking prices are set by people who own the books and the new asking prices are set by people who own warehouses.

RC wrote:Did you even read the list?

Of course I read the list. Demons trade being acceptable casters for being powerful in melee (warrior nerf). Easily available spell renders the entire grappler concept meaningless (warrior nerf).

-Username17

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:46 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: Of course I read the list. Demons trade being acceptable casters for being powerful in melee (warrior nerf). Easily available spell renders the entire grappler concept meaningless (warrior nerf).

The thing swordsmen suck most at is fighting monsters who are faster than they are and stay out of melee. So the less incentive you give to dragons and balors to rush in with their claws and swords, the more time they're spending staying out of melee range and making the swordsman useless. Even if the monster is your match in melee and may beat you, the fact that it enters melee at all and lets you take a swing means you can contribute to the battle. If you can never close to melee, then you just sit there as a practice target. Encouraging balors and pit fiends to be highly mobile spell artillery platforms is not doing fighters any favors. It means that meleers do absolutely nothing aside from just run after the monster.

As far as freedom of movement, monsters most commonly grapple fighters, not the other way around. Further, monsters generally don't have access to FoM anyway. Fighters gradually lose the grapple game hard. At high levels, you just don't want to interact with the grapple game at all, because you can't keep up with the crazy size bonuses the monsters get. Grappling is generally the fighter's bane, except early in levels where grappling a wizard can be useful. If you were to be expected to fight any grapple monster, you absolutely needed FoM as a fighter.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:54 pm

No, FoM was a warrior BUFF because without it a non-grapple warrior cannot hope to fight dragons and krakens effectively.

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:20 pm

Lokathor wrote: Favorite book. I wanna see more Fightan Magic classes, but I've never had the time to sit down and do it.

This is the internet, someone's always already done half the work for you somewhere. In this case there's a guy on the enworld boards who spent a fair bit of time writing up some more disciplines a few years back. I could try and dig up some links if you're interested.

Tequila Sunrise · Post by **Tequila Sunrise** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:10 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Weeaboo Fightan Magic is a criticism of the book that handing out (or attempting to hand out) powers that can keep up with actual magic makes the game 'too anime'.

So you get to deftly avoid the issue of you being a douchebag who wants to keep your boot on the neck of weak classes by calling anyone who dares to oppose your douchebaggery a Japanophile.

It's one of the ugliest slurs in all of roleplaying.

Is it just me, or does 'Weeaboo Fightan Magic' make you want to laugh more than get in a huff? I mean, 3tard and 4ron are good slurs, 'cause I immediately understand the derision. I guess whoever first wrote 'weeaboo fightan' thought they were being awfully clever, but how am I supposed to be offended by nonsense, without hearing vocal tone? WTF is a weeaboo?

(PR's right that ToB is pretty anime-ish. The stupidity is assuming that's a bad thing.)

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:19 am

FrankTrollman wrote:It's basically not worth doing is my take-home. The Weaboo Fightan Magic classes have a text to playable concept ratio that is really bad. The book is 160 pages and it introduces what, four playable archetypes?

Making a new class of that type involves writing a whole new spell list and spellcasting mechanic. The amount of work required could practically make you a new edition.

Funny you should mention that. Dabbling in retro-clones and new editions is what takes up most of my RPG time. I've got a few different game ideas floating about but nothing I'm exactly happy with, you know how it is. The one I'm most happy with at the moment mixes nwod xp/leveling with d20 stuff, and I think it'll turn out okayish if I write it down.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:22 am

Tequila Sunrise wrote:Is it just me, or does 'Weeaboo Fightan Magic' make you want to laugh more than get in a huff? I mean, 3tard and 4ron are good slurs, 'cause I immediately understand the derision. I guess whoever first wrote 'weeaboo fightan' thought they were being awfully clever, but how am I supposed to be offended by nonsense, without hearing vocal tone? WTF is a weeaboo?

(PR's right that ToB is pretty anime-ish. The stupidity is assuming that's a bad thing.)

I dunno, I always placed "Weeboo Fightan Magic' under the same category of 'It's cold outside' and such. It's not so much derogatory so much as a far more amusing way to reference the book without losing understanding.

/likes amusing renaming of books

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:26 am

"weeaboo" originally comes from a Perry Bible Fellowship Webcomic

Somehow it jumped from there into a chan filter substitute for the derogatory term "wapanese" (same derivation as "wigger") and from there to the rest of the internets.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:57 am

Wapanese? Westerner Japanese?

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:58 am

Tequila Sunrise wrote: (PR's right that ToB is pretty anime-ish. The stupidity is assuming that's a bad thing.)

Yeah, ToB gets a lot of bad press for some reason.

In my opinion, it's probably the best supplement ever produced for 3.5. Really, I encourage anyone wanting to play a fighter to not even bother with the PHB warrior classes and just go warblade.

Guyr Adamantine · Post by **Guyr Adamantine** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:58 am

shadzar wrote:Wapanese? Westerner Japanese?

Wannabe japanese.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:13 am

Tequila Sunrise wrote: Weeaboo Fightan Magic is a criticism of the book that handing out (or attempting to hand out) powers that can keep up with actual magic makes the game 'too anime'.

So you get to deftly avoid the issue of you being a douchebag who wants to keep your boot on the neck of weak classes by calling anyone who dares to oppose your douchebaggery a Japanophile.

It's one of the ugliest slurs in all of roleplaying.

Personally, I love that title. I'm a weeaboo, I like fightan, and I like magic. It seems like a gorram winner to me.

And saying Weeaboo Fightan Magic is a ugly slur is like saying 4rry is ugly or something. It's a *Chan troll attempt that became a term of pseudo-endearment, no worse than "Races of Rabbitfvcking," or "Complete Garbage".

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:18 am

Psychic Robot wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote:Weeaboo Fightan Magic is a criticism of the book that handing out (or attempting to hand out) powers that can keep up with actual magic makes the game 'too anime'.
No offense, but fighters shooting fire and teleporting is pretty anime. (In before "Death Note is anime!")

Funny story, 2/3 of the classes don't shoot fire or teleport.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:27 am

Leress wrote:Please don't say dumb things like that.

Fighters shooting fire/teleporting is an anime thing.

Caedrus wrote:Funny story, 2/3 of the classes don't shoot fire or teleport.

33.333% of them do, though, and that's why the book is called Weeaboo Fightan Magic.

(PR's right that ToB is pretty anime-ish. The stupidity is assuming that's a bad thing.)

Never said it was bad. I don't like it, but some people like games where fighters can teleport.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:29 am

While I resent 3.5 for bitch-slapping some of my favorite characters into non-existence, my biggest problem with 3.5 is principle.

3.0 was awesome. It brought D&D closer to coming out of the nerd closet, and opened the game up to more players. The simple foundation of rules allowed for ease in understanding the game, but left room for greater complexity as familiarity with the game increased. The novel OGL allowed inspiration from many different sources to be published, and the SRD rocked the house by giving people a taste of the game to see if they wanted to buy it.

3.5 divided the fanbase, crippled third party publication, and stuck on a whole bunch of bandaids that did more harm than help. WotC lost a lot of ground with their customers because of mistrust and the impending feeling of 4E. Any feelings that WotC might be a cool company were decidedly crushed, and it the notion that they were just in it to make a buck was set in stone.