Ultimate Showdown: 3.0 vs. 3.5

[RandomCasualty2]

I never got the weapon size hate either. In fact I didn't even realize anything had changed until it came up on a forum, years after I had switched to 3.5. And I was usually the DM. I suppose one is probably marginally superior to the other, but I can't even summon enough nerdrage to analyze them. Maybe if I played Small PCs regularly I'd have a different attitude, maybe not.

Yeah, mostly I think the main reason people didn't like the 3.5 system was because you had to find special small sized weapons when you played a halfling. Which was a minor foil since you'd probably never find weapons you could use, so you had to have your own custom made. If you play in worlds without a magic shop, where you can't just commission a mage to make you an item, that could be cripplingly bad.

But it's a problem I never really came across, since small PCs were rare in my games anyway, and if it was a low magic world, I'd make sure to take care of the small PC anyway when calculating what treasure to hand out. If you used the treasure tables in the MIC, it was pretty much next to impossible to randomly generate a magic weapon you could wield.

[RandomCasualty2]

I never got the weapon size hate either. In fact I didn't even realize anything had changed until it came up on a forum, years after I had switched to 3.5. And I was usually the DM. I suppose one is probably marginally superior to the other, but I can't even summon enough nerdrage to analyze them. Maybe if I played Small PCs regularly I'd have a different attitude, maybe not.

Yeah, mostly I think the main reason people didn't like the 3.5 system was because you had to find special small sized weapons when you played a halfling. Which was a minor foil since you'd probably never find weapons you could use, so you had to have your own custom made. If you play in worlds without a magic shop, where you can't just commission a mage to make you an item, that could be cripplingly bad.

But it's a problem I never really came across, since small PCs were rare in my games anyway, and if it was a low magic world, I'd make sure to take care of the small PC anyway when calculating what treasure to hand out. If you used the treasure tables in the MIC, it was pretty much next to impossible to randomly generate a magic weapon you could wield.

[hogarth]

Yeah, mostly I think the main reason people didn't like the 3.5 system was because you had to find special small sized weapons when you played a halfling.

That, and the idea that a halfling-sized glaive reaches just as far as a human-sized glaive.




"B-b-b-b-but what about Swiss pikemen? H-h-h-huh? You just hate midgets!!!" -- A. Bilbo McHalfling

[RandomCasualty2]

That, and the idea that a halfling-sized glaive reaches just as far as a human-sized glaive.

Actually you could totally do that in 3.0 too, it was just a lot less obvious since the rules for actually sizing weapons to different creatures was hidden. The reach of a halfling was still 5 ft, so a halfling using a reach weapon would have a reach of 10 ft.

The only thing that confused people is that the reach weapons were large in size, but there's really no reason in 3.0 you couldn't create a medium sized glaive or spiked chain. Because the reach property came from the weapon type, not the size.

Another example of 3.0 silliness. You could actually size down a glaive to small or even tiny and you'd still have reach with it if you were a human or halfling wielding it, because all glaives were reach weapons.

[RandomCasualty2]

That, and the idea that a halfling-sized glaive reaches just as far as a human-sized glaive.

Actually you could totally do that in 3.0 too, it was just a lot less obvious since the rules for actually sizing weapons to different creatures was hidden. The reach of a halfling was still 5 ft, so a halfling using a reach weapon would have a reach of 10 ft.

The only thing that confused people is that the reach weapons were large in size, but there's really no reason in 3.0 you couldn't create a medium sized glaive or spiked chain. Because the reach property came from the weapon type, not the size.

Another example of 3.0 silliness. You could actually size down a glaive to small or even tiny and you'd still have reach with it if you were a human or halfling wielding it, because all glaives were reach weapons.

[RandomCasualty2]

That, and the idea that a halfling-sized glaive reaches just as far as a human-sized glaive.

Actually you could totally do that in 3.0 too, it was just a lot less obvious since the rules for actually sizing weapons to different creatures was hidden. The reach of a halfling was still 5 ft, so a halfling using a reach weapon would have a reach of 10 ft.

The only thing that confused people is that the reach weapons were large in size, but there's really no reason in 3.0 you couldn't create a medium sized glaive or spiked chain. The reach property came from the weapon type, not the size. It was just that sizing weapons to different sizes was a rule that was buried in some obscure passage, probably in the MM, so most people didn't realize they could just have their halfling use a medium glaive.

Another example of 3.0 silliness. You could actually size down a glaive to small or even tiny and you'd still have reach with it if you were a human or halfling wielding it, because all glaives were reach weapons.

[Roy]

What's with all the fucking dupe posts?

Anyways, easiest way to fix sizing Fail is to have magic weapons auto size just like every other non weapon, non armor magic item. Ok, it's still there for the first two or three levels, but no one fucking cares because:

No one fucking plays before level 3, randomly falling over and dying like a dumbass mook is a waste of time.

It's not hard to get a normal or MW version of whatever you want, the rarity only becomes a factor when combined with magic.

Did I mention the game starts at level 3, at the earliest?

[RandomCasualty2]

What's with all the fucking dupe posts?

Been having some trouble lately with the boards. where it doesn't take my post initially, or at least I don't think it does. Apparnetly some more have been getting through than I thought.

[Judging__Eagle]

Judging Eagle,

In PRs defense, I'm pretty sure combat teleportation is an almost entirely modern trope. I don't know of historical sources that depict it the way modern anime and superhero shows do.

shooting fire as a personal combat technique is also not a typical feature of ancient sources that I know of, although of course it happens plenty in western fantasy fiction.

Actually....

their special powers are sometimes more hardcore than that.

Havelock the Dane had mass charm monster at will. He used his name as his armies rallying call; and when facing his enemies, they literally switched sides.

Havelock's special power is that fire rises from over his mouth while he sleeps, and that an angel will seriously explain to people that he can breath fire in his sleep because he's a "true king".

Odysseus had the special powers of "cannot be completely seduced, even by supernaturally powerful women", "hated/favoured by the gods".

He was married (and wanted to get back to his wife; even though he had seriously had no problem bedding a powerful echantress (Circe) and sea nymph (Calypso). He was also a collossal bastard against anyone who hurt him, his family, or his friends; which is why he blinded Polyphemus.

We're talking about "regular guys" who have abilities that break plot over their knees. Combat teleportation is fine and all, but if you seriously have Athena declaring that you get a get out of jail free card, it doesn't matter if you were able to teleport out of a problem or not. You get out of the problem. Athena seriously gives Odysseus everything from the equivalent of true clairvoyance, to greater illusions, to arguing in his favor to other gods, like her father Zeus, in order for Odysseus to advance his goal of "going home".

Some of these characters are also, you know giants. As in, Fionn MacCool (Fionn mac Cumhail).

Some characters are seriously possessed by gods turning them into immortal killing machines, that's straight out of the Illiad. A few gods go around possessing people and making them fight until the bodies are literally hacked to pieces, their "black-blood" pouring all over the damned place. So the original source material, that medieval fiction writers had to draw from was actually pretty fanciful.

Actually, I think that it's pretty presumptuous for us to think that we've thought up all of the cool story ideas "recently".

Intrigues are ancient, as is murder, and war. Love stories are also ancient. Stories of battles are among the Epic of Gilgamesh, and that's clocked in at being about 5,000 years old, and thought to be one of the oldest known stories to this day.

It was all about a guy, not a wizard, or a scholar, or anything supernaturally powered.

However, his 'backstory' was that he was 2/3 god. Yeah, his ancestry was illogical. He was the first super-hero, and he had an impossible heritage.

I've yet to see someone in an anime claim that they are 2/3 anything.

[Tequila Sunrise]

I've yet to see someone in an anime claim that they are 2/3 anything.

Most anime I've seen is 2/3 teeth-grinding melodramatic story-stalling freeze-framing.

Wait, you meant a character's claim...nevermind.

[Judging__Eagle]

I'll be honest, I don't like most of the mainstream stuff coming out of the japanese anime market. It's boring, puerile, and tries to appeal to something that I don't believe in. Seriously, only things like Ghost in the Shell, or Graveyard of the Fireflies are anything that I'd recommend someone to watch.

Manga are usually a better value in terms of entertainment compared to time spent reading. Mostly because there are a lot more options, so I can find things that I enjoy reading.

[Orion]

Judging Eagle,

I know historically PR has a habit of bitching when fighters get nice things. I'm deliberately constructing the most charitable reading of his comments.

It's not about how "hardcore" something is, it's about different sorts of magical conventions.

I know there's no ironclad distinction between "superhuman physical abilities" and "spellcasting/magic," but it intuitively feels like there is, enough so that Trollman separated "Sorcery" from "universal disciplines." The examples you cited are all examples of people achieving extraordinary things through physical actions that anyone can take. Hill-cleaving is a special case of hitting things with sticks, mindraping is a special case of oratory. I know that defining some things as "magic" and keeping fighters from getting them leads to suck, but defining some thigns as "magic" and not giving them out at all doesn't.

What are teleportation and fire-shooting a special case of? You could make a case for teleportation as a special case of running or jumping, maybe, but fire-shooting I just don't see. Further, some elements, especially teleportation, change the underlying "physics" of the world. Teleportation means that space is interruptible. There's legitimate reasons to write teleportation out of a setting entirely.

When it comes specifically to combat teleportation, I think calling it an anime trope is just objectively true. I mean, obviously it's been used by comic-book superheroes and by sci-fi mutants and telepaths, it's not exclusive. However, rapid but discrete motion is very easy and dramatic to animate, and all manner of anime swordsmen really do move in invisible blurs, snapping into one freeze-frame pose after another without appearing to walk like a normal person.

[shadzar]

I have gotten lost in other threads and real life, and don't recall all I have been reading on this one.

What is the real problem with fighters throwing fire around?

What is the real argument about? That a fighter shouldn't be able to do something that seems like spell-casting?

Mind you, I know little of 3.5, and NOTHING of 3.0 other than what people have provided on Wikipedia, in the changes to editions section.

I am just getting lost on what the problem is with fighters throwing fire around.

[MGuy]

I don't get the weeaboo part of the fightan magic thing but I like (some) anime. So the term doesn't bother me at all. I am just a stubborn person who thinks that fighters shouldn't be swinging lines of flame out of their eyes for no reason beyond martial prowess. That being said MOST of the techniques in the ToB don't bother me at all. In fact I think there aren't enough options in it.

[Ganbare Gincun]

I have gotten lost in other threads and real life, and don't recall all I have been reading on this one.

What is the real problem with fighters throwing fire around?

What is the real argument about? That a fighter shouldn't be able to do something that seems like spell-casting?

Mind you, I know little of 3.5, and NOTHING of 3.0 other than what people have provided on Wikipedia, in the changes to editions section.

I am just getting lost on what the problem is with fighters throwing fire around.

It all comes down to a simple axiom: Fighters Can't Have Nice Things. It's just not *realistic* or *appropriate* in many players' minds for the melee types to be running around shooting flames or flying or growing to giant form and the like. I mean, it's *totally* realistic for the spellcasters to do things like this, but Fighters and their ilk? Completely unacceptable. If you want to play a melee type in 3.X, you're just going to have to accept the fact that all of the spellcasters are better then you are and once you get past level 10, you're pretty much just there to haul around sacks of treasure. It's just the natural order of things, you see.

But it could be worse: you could be a Monk.

[MGuy]

My only real problem with fighters having eye beams is that it isn't consistent. A mage consistently getting more fire magic is acceptable, a fighter getting fire magic because he gained another level in swing sword better isn't. I'll take giant growth, chopping a mountain in half, and running on water before I'll say ok to a completely martial character shooting death rays of molten destruction out of their eyes.

[shadzar]

I did play a monk in the 3.5 game I was in. Had more fun than the wizard player. Otherwise it seems to be the same thing people assign to fighters v wizards in earlier editions.

But fighters got magic items they could use to fly, or grow in size, etc, AND the wizard made and gave it to them to protect the wizard. Never had a chance for that in 3.5, because the game ended but it was in the works from the wizard, druid, AND sorcerer in the party to make melee class items to bolster their strength to protect the casters...

Oh well thanks for clearing that up....goes back to reading the thread with more understanding of the arguments.

[hogarth]

I have gotten lost in other threads and real life, and don't recall all I have been reading on this one.

What is the real problem with fighters throwing fire around?

That's like asking: "What is the real problem with giving Batman a magic lasso?"

If you don't think there's a problem, then there's no problem, I guess.

[shadzar]

I have gotten lost in other threads and real life, and don't recall all I have been reading on this one.

What is the real problem with fighters throwing fire around?

That's like asking: "What is the real problem with giving Batman a magic lasso?"

If you don't think there's a problem, then there's no problem, I guess.

I been trying to explain that to people for years. I understand how some feel, but don't understand why they feel that way about the issue.

Only replying here again because your question, which made me think...Didn't Batman use Wonder Woman's lasso on a few occasions?

[God_of_Awesome]

This is kind of what I was talking about in my thread. I think Fighters and the other melee classes, no holds bar, should have magic fuckin' powers. NPCs, except those with PC classes, are expected to not have magic. Those spellcasting NPCs classes are to be absolutley piddly at best, with the high levels one being a threat to low-level PCs. As a PC, you are supposed to be the fantastical equivalent of a super hero. Even at a low level, you are at least Batman level in sheer kick ass. Of course, Batman has no magic, so obviously you can get that way without magic but Batman doesn't get any further without special gear and neither should you unless you have magic fuckin' powers that can go beyond the limits of 'realistic human achievement.'

[Tequila Sunrise]

It's a simple matter of class names: 'mage, wizard, sorcerer, whatever' have an explanation for crazy moves built right into the title, while 'fighter, warrior, rogue, whatever' have 'local kid turned hero' built into the title. Because before we played D&D, what did we think of when we heard those words? Those muscly dudes on the Spike channel, roman legionnaires, boxers, maybe Conan. Guys who fight really well, roughly within the limits of reality.

Imagine reading a book in which there are two protagonists: one described simply as a 'wizard' and another simply as a 'warrior.' In the first chapter, they both threaten to blast their foes away with lightning shooting from their arses. Who are ya gonna take seriously, and who do you think is bluffing? You're gonna take the wizard at his word of course, because everyone knows that wizards are magical and might actually do whatever crazy shit the author can think up. You're also gonna guess that the warrior is bluffing, because if he could shoot lightning from his arse he wouldn't be called just a warrior. He'd be a warrior-wizard, or at least a Warrior of the Radiant Rose or something. If the author didn't hint at his possession of supernatural powers somehow, and continued to refer to him as a simple warrior after demonstrating them, you'd be like 'WTH, this author is retarded, I'm burning this book.'

And that's why a lot of controversy could be avoided by adding some vaguely suggestive adjective to all the martial class names: Black Lilly Rogue, Eldritch Warrior, whatever. And giving them all anime moves, of course.

[God_of_Awesome]

Now imagine if that warrior had magical weapons he made himself. Other then making these magical weapons and other gear, he shows no other magical ability. Could he still be a 'warrior'? I think so but I'll see your opinion.

[Orion]

It's not about realistic, it's about the difference between unnatural and supernatural.

[Psychic Robot]

Yes, I'm one of the people who hates it when fighters get nice things. I hate the notion of fighters teleporting or shooting fireballs. I hate it, and that's one of the reasons why I will never run a game with ToB. On the other hand, I hate it when wizards and clerics get too nice of things. Overall, I prefer my games fairly low-powered, which is why I wrinkled my nose at things like a fighter chopping a mountain in half or using laser eyebeams.

However, consider this: while I'm not a fan of the increased power level in the Tomes (I would much rather see casters toned down significantly and noncasters boosted slightly than noncasters boosted immensely), the majority of the Tome series is acceptable to me. In particular, Races of War does not leave a bad taste in my mouth with most of the abilities granted to the classes.

[Korwin]

EDIT: You still want to roll low for initiative, because you go in order from lowest to highest and repeat. So current systems still use lower is better.

I assumed you where talking about 3.X here...

What? No it's not. Higher initiative is better in 3E and 4E.

Ravengm did think that you talked about 3.X

You count backwards? The person getting a 20 goes first and counts down to one and that character goes last in a round?

You played an 3.X game and dont know how Initiative works?