Size

[Vnonymous]

It seems to me that most rpg systems, d20 in particular, don't really model size all that well. Apart from grappling people, if you want to hit things you are almost better off being really tiny.

This doesn't really seem to play out in the real world - Orcas eat Penguins, Bears eat People/Salmon, T-rex eats whatever it really feels like.A lot of this is kind of ignored because developers just give big monsters big numbers, but when the players get their hands on size-changing stuff, its' pretty much never worth it to be big.

What sort of bonuses/penalties should size-changing give? Damage reduction, str bonuses, bonus hp, what?

[TarkisFlux]

Well, all of your examples assume mundane people, which fails pretty hard in d20. People are supposed to get to the point where they can arm wrestle T-rex and push his jaws open and cut themselves out from his stomach if they want to let themselves get swallowed, but if he's just targeting mooks he pretty much does get to just eat whoever he feels like in the system. Size isn't worth anywhere near as much as level, or at least it's not supposed to.

Level differences aside, in the 3.x context I've actually been kicking around the idea that if something is 2 sizes larger than you, you have to share a square with it to deal real damage to it (there's plenty of room in most of the squares these things "occupy"). And since you can't actually reach anything from the ground that would really hurt a creature 3 or more sizes larger than you (in most cases, I'm sure exceptions exist), you have to be flying or climb it or whatever in addition to sharing it's space. If you don't get up to an area that it cares about, you're just dealing damage to weaken a limb and hopefully make an important area accessible when that starts failing. It changes some of the square sharing rules and makes reach an extra bitch, but it allows you to actually get inside of a bigger creatures reach / threat range (as well as ride the big ass things without a lame ass feat). And it allows little bastard fairies to do the same to most player races, so they wind up swatting at them instead of hacking with a greatsword or whatever. Which better mimics source material I think (at least the source that comes to mind, yay personal bias).

Which doesn't quite answer your bonus question numerically, but does suggest a tactical bonus that might get you what you're looking for.

[erik]

I started playing Hollow Earth Expedition (HEX) after picking the main book up at Gen Con this year. It's a dicepool system pretty close to the d6 TN 5 system used for aWoD (HEX uses stacks of 50% dice, so the DCs need to be set a bit higher). Anywho, it has some of the most effed up size rules I have seen in a while, though promises to be pretty nifty with minor modification (i.e. almost entirely scrapping the size modifiers)

Attack and damage rolls are combined into a single roll which combines accuracy and power. For some reason small size gives not only bonus to attack (your accuracy somehow outperforms your drop in power), but they also get a bonus to defense (your smaller target area somehow outdistances that hits are more likely to find your vitals and crush you). Worse is that naturally the reverse is true for larger sizes. Worse still, there is a Flaw that makes you -1 size... and a Talent (really expensive feat) that gives you +1 size. It hurts, Mommy, it hurts.

http://exilegames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2568
(if you must post there, please remember to be super-level nice... I don't think these folks are prepared for a no-hold's barred introduction to argumentation)

[tzor]

It seems to me that most rpg systems, d20 in particular, don't really model size all that well. Apart from grappling people, if you want to hit things you are almost better off being really tiny.

This doesn't really seem to play out in the real world - Orcas eat Penguins, Bears eat People/Salmon, T-rex eats whatever it really feels like.A lot of this is kind of ignored because developers just give big monsters big numbers, but when the players get their hands on size-changing stuff, its' pretty much never worth it to be big.

What sort of bonuses/penalties should size-changing give? Damage reduction, str bonuses, bonus hp, what?

Counter point: Piranha eat almost everything. (Granted they should count as a swarm but you get the point.)

No really, if you want to get really technical there is no general notion of the size of predator is always greater than the size of prey. Most hunting is generally done in packs, but even then one on one attacks to the weakest member of the prey pack is common.

I never quite got enough resolve to grandly unify the scale system but as a Lankhmar DM since 1984 the micro progression of the D&D combat system was always on the back of my mind and I played with the subdivision of the 5’ square back in the 3E days.

Using the rules as written, things really start to suck at a scale lower than tiny. Most of the problems are due to the 0’ reach rule and the sort of quantum mechanical nature of creatures within the 5’ square. You could not flank, for example, (even if you are only dealing with creatures with 0’ reach) and you could not do a lot of other things because the rules were based around the medium creature even when none of the creatures in a given combat were medium.

In the 3.X system, large creatures get reach, attacks of opportunity for those who lack reach and need to get in close to attack, and have better flanking options. Many of these features still exist in the 4E system. Large creatures often get more hit dice, greater strength, and weapons in general scale in a vague relationship to size.

If a pixie tries to throw a stone at a medium type creature, that creature laughs. If a titan tries to throw a stone at a medium type creature, that creature gets really hurt. In many ways size does matter.

It’s hard to compare things in 1E but the original Lankhmar rules had a potion that reduced men to rat size (from medium to diminutive in 3E terms). In 3E rats were in general a lot larger than they were in 1E so the reduction was more medium to tiny. Never the less, the process goes beyond the operating parameters of the combat system as written and needs excessive hand waving in order to make it so. This is why size changing has been constantly nerfed in the various editions.

[Tequila Sunrise]

It seems to me that most rpg systems, d20 in particular, don't really model size all that well. Apart from grappling people, if you want to hit things you are almost better off being really tiny.

This doesn't really seem to play out in the real world - Orcas eat Penguins, Bears eat People/Salmon, T-rex eats whatever it really feels like.A lot of this is kind of ignored because developers just give big monsters big numbers, but when the players get their hands on size-changing stuff, its' pretty much never worth it to be big.

Your examples involve a lot more than just size. Predators in general are much quicker, wily and experienced than other creatures of their size. So while penguins are highly maneuverable, orcas are much more maneuverable than their size would suggest; even so orcas have to really work to catch those penguins.

So if you want to compare sizes, it's more accurate to compare like-shaped creatures. Ogres, humans and halfings, for example.

What sort of bonuses/penalties should size-changing give? Damage reduction, str bonuses, bonus hp, what?

Given D&D's near-total lack of reality simulation -- and yes I'm talking 3e -- the game does it moderately well already. The only two things I'd change are:

1. The Small space/reach anomaly. I know the balance issue involved, but to be realistic and consistent with other sizes, Small creatures should have 2.5 ft/0 ft space/reach. Making Small creatures effectively Medium-lite size makes it easier to balance Small PCs, but it's bullshit. I'd rather either have Medium halflings or give Small PC races some kind of melee advantage to make up for their short reach.

2. The exponentially expanding attack/AC mods. I don't know who's responsible for the +/- 1, 2, 4, 8 inanity, but it looks like something that a wannabe mathlete would crap out because it looks sophisticated. It's not, it's just embarrassingly inconsistent with other size mods. I'd just pick a number, and increase each size mod by that much, like +/- 1, 2, 3, 4 or +/- 2, 4, 6, 8.