[D&D 3.x] Enhancement bonuses and improvised weapons

[Avoraciopoctules]

I've been wondering about this for a while. I know enhancement bonuses don't stack with masterwork weapon bonuses. Logically, since masterwork bonuses come from the weapon being exceptionally well designed, improvised weapon penalties could be viewed as a similar kind of modifier. This opens a line of argument for improvised weapons losing the attack penalty if you cast Magic Weapon or otherwise apply an enhancement bonus. Do the normal rules say anything one way or the other about this?

If I applied this as a houserule, would it break a game significantly? I know it might result in a lot more people fighting with tables.

[shadzar]

The purpose as was told to me by Tweet, was that masterwork and magic didn't stack because the enchantment needed the better quality of masterwork to become permanent. So you are not stuck with that rule if your enchantment is not meant to be permanent, as you would not be enchanting the item for long term, and duration enhancements would wear off so not bound by the stacking rule.

You could force the does not stack, but it would not break unless you had some CoDzilla or Pun-Pun wielding the item.

I would say it shouldn't lose the penalty for untrained weapon as the bonus is pretty much making it a trained weapon rather than improvised...but that is just my opinion...and you know I dislike 3rd anyway, so consider that along with the opinion.

[Leress]

I would say no, since people can make clubs, slings, and quarterstaves for free. Even with the magic weapons spell it would be the less optimal choice.

[Quantumboost]

Enhancement bonuses don't stack with masterwork weapon bonuses because masterwork bonuses are enhancement bonuses. The penalty due to something being an improvised weapon is an unnamed penalty. So no, there's nothing in the rules that would indicate that magic weapon would cancel the improvised weapon penalty.

The houserule would have minimal impact, and would let people who want to fight with ornate beer steins and armoires do so in a vaguely level-appropriate (meaning "not much worse than a poor choice of actual weapon") manner. You might want to generalize some of the weapon-specific feats to "improvised weaponry" rather than specific pieces. Heck, you could get away with making "battle sofas" about as good as normal weapons and be fine.

[shadzar]

Enhancement bonuses don't stack with masterwork weapon bonuses because masterwork bonuses are enhancement bonuses.

Is that their slot/type? So you can only get one type of enhancement bonus, like only one type of item bonus? (not loading up eTools to check modifier type to see if items is one just using it as an example.)

[Quantumboost]

Is that their slot/type? So you can only get one type of enhancement bonus, like only one type of item bonus? (not loading up eTools to check modifier type to see if items is one just using it as an example.)

In 3rd edition D&D, there are typed bonuses and untyped bonuses. Untyped bonuses stack with everything else, including other untyped bonuses. Typed bonuses that aren't Dodge or circumstance bonuses don't stack with other bonuses of the same type (enhancement with enhancement, morale with morale, etc.).

You can have bonuses of different types apply to the same thing - like increasing your attack roll with both a magic weapon (enhancement) and a bard's inspire courage (morale). You can also have bonuses of the same type that apply to different things - like an enhancement bonus to attack from a magic weapon and a enhancement bonus to Strength from bull's strength.

[shadzar]

Thanks, that will help me follow reading this thread as it progresses.

[Psychic Robot]

I've been wondering about this for a while. I know enhancement bonuses don't stack with masterwork weapon bonuses. Logically, since masterwork bonuses come from the weapon being exceptionally well designed, improvised weapon penalties could be viewed as a similar kind of modifier. This opens a line of argument for improvised weapons losing the attack penalty if you cast Magic Weapon or otherwise apply an enhancement bonus. Do the normal rules say anything one way or the other about this?

It seems that you're arguing rules fluff vs. rules mechanics. As others have pointed out, improvised weapons do not lose their attack penalty when magic weapon is cast on them. Personally, I think that allowing masterwork chairs and masterwork smoked trout would be awesome, so I think that you should house rule it.

[erik]

I would say no, since people can make clubs, slings, and quarterstaves for free. Even with the magic weapons spell it would be the less optimal choice.

I have a vague recollection of something like a table or ladder being an insanely good improvised weapon.

I don't think at any rate that enchanted improvised weapons will unbalance a game, just make it sillier- which some people might enjoy more actually.

edit, oh yeah...

I'd like to present to you the perfect weapon:

--Two-handed, so it does bigger Power Attacks.

--Adds a +2 shield bonus, so you can enchant it like a magic shield and you can get your shield bonus while two-handed fighting, and without any feats used.

--Adds a +2 to bull rushes.

--damage = 3d6/x2

-Downside: must be enchanted as a +3 weapon, or else you suffer a -4 to hit with it. Also, enchanting it as armor or weapon costs double.

What is it?

A large table....., as per the Improvised Weapon rules on page 158-159 of the Complete Warrior.

Enchant it as a Karmic Table +1 (thus granting proficiiency in "Table"), then enchant it as a shield, maybe get a cleric or wizzy to boost its weapon bonus, and you are good to go.

Awesome.

Found in Complete Warrior on page 159 with the improvised weapons... it is a large sized weapon so you'd need monkey grip or something too. It still made me laugh.

[Username17]

Technically the -4 to-hit with an improvised weapon is a nonproficiency penalty (this factoid is buried in really opaque rules interactions). So if you got a nonproficiency bonus it would cancel. More importantly, if you gain proficiency with the object somehow, the penalty goes away. Complete Adventurer I think introduced some spell that gave you proficiency in whatever you happened to be holding. Master's Touch? Something stupid like that. I don't really remember because it was at the shallow end of the inane stacking buffs that allowed Wizards to out-beat-stick fighters if they decided that it wasn't awesome enough to just win battles by being a wizard.

-Username17

[Tequila Sunrise]

Masterwork and enhancements don't stack because if they did, and your DM said 'You find a +1 sword,' you'd be like 'You mean masterwork?' and he'd be like 'No, a magical +1 sword,' and you'd be like 'Oh you mean +2 to attack and +1 to damage, or... ' and then you'd both be like 'Fuck this +n/+n-1 shit, they don't stack from now on.'

[Avoraciopoctules]

Thanks for the feedback. I now have a much better idea of what I might do if I wanted to play an improvised weapon fighter in someone else's 3.x game.

In my games, I think I'll just make the improvised weapon penalty rapidly disappear (maybe only -2 after the first encounter the weapon is used in, and reduced further if using the weapon seems vaguely easy), since the idea of someone proficient with all martial weapons having difficulty hitting someone with an oar or folding chair hurts my brain. I'm more likely to apply damage penalties.

[Koumei]

Weapons made of Baatorian Green Steel are treated as MW (in the same way that Adamantine is), but they give +1 Damage. Now I know nobody gives a shit about +1 damage at any level, but it's better than nothing and isn't enhancement so it stays.

Also, there is the odd (usually prestige) class that gives you proficiency in improvised weapons. The hilariously unintended effect of this is that you can pick up, say, a greatspear, and treat it as an improvised weapon that probably has the stats of a greatspear. You become proficient with everything that could ever possibly exist.

And a Tome Monk/Jester I made carried a +1 Flaming Ladder around. It was an awesome 2-H weapon - reach, tripping/disarming, could be, in a pinch, used as a makeshift ladder to reach high places*! The list is endless!

*Make sure to deactivate the flames first.

[Cynic]

Weapons made of Baatorian Green Steel are treated as MW (in the same way that Adamantine is), but they give +1 Damage. Now I know nobody gives a shit about +1 damage at any level, but it's better than nothing and isn't enhancement so it stays.

Also, there is the odd (usually prestige) class that gives you proficiency in improvised weapons. The hilariously unintended effect of this is that you can pick up, say, a greatspear, and treat it as an improvised weapon that probably has the stats of a greatspear. You become proficient with everything that could ever possibly exist.

And a Tome Monk/Jester I made carried a +1 Flaming Ladder around. It was an awesome 2-H weapon - reach, tripping/disarming, could be, in a pinch, used as a makeshift ladder to reach high places*! The list is endless!

*Make sure to deactivate the flames first.

Don't forget grapple and then have your friend charge atop the ladder to dropkick the foe.