Roleplaying 101

[Judging__Eagle]

The basics of RP:

1. You are playing someone, that is not yourself

2. You are pretending that you are in a world that is not your own

3. You are expected to act as if you are in that setting, and playing your character.

4. The source material for the game must allow for 1, 2, and 3 to be possible.

There cannot be any nonsense about "you don't know that X gives you better stats at Y", since that's insane by real life standards. In real life, you know when you are using a good tool for a job, or the wrong tool for the job.

This goes from lighting a cigarette, to chopping a watermelon in half.

Everything else that does not allow the players to act like they are characters in the setting is bullshit, and non-conductive of roleplaying.

[Archmage]

But, J_E, you know what you can and cannot plausibly do in real life. And your character is obviously not capable of doing anything you don't think you could do.

Naturally, the solution to this is to hope you and the GM have the same definition of "common sense" and that his ideas about physics, chemistry, and biology match up with your own. Also, you both have exactly the same mental image of what is "in-genre," because "Swords and Sorcery" is the most specific description of a game setting conceivable since all fantasy fiction is exactly the same.

And whatever you do, don't try to grapple the enemy wizard and pin him to the ground, covering his mouth so he can't make the necessary gestures or vocalizations to cast his spells. I mean, you can try anything, but if I think it's a bad idea (which I do) it'll probably fail, not that you have any way to know that. We're not rednecks and we don't wrestle our enemies, so we don't need grapple rules. We hit them with swords like civilized adventurers. That's just common sense. Why would you fight with your hands when there are swords? In fact, you're a fighter, how do you know you can prevent a wizard from casting spells by pinning him? Quit playing the rules and play the game!

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'd like to add a few others, if that's all right.

5) All roleplaying is done on the intersection with as much real world logic as possible unless contradicted by the setting or the rules.

Almost every RPG published so far is done from a human bias, which means that a lot of activities are just out-and-out assumed. For example, you don't need many rules for out-of-combat talking, but we know that talking shouldn't be an activity that's done underwater. Similarly, if someone puts a gag in your mouth it doesn't mean that you should keep talking as normal even though there aren't any rules for gags.

6) Rules that enable people to do things completely outside of 'real life' should get the most attention.

A lot of people in D&D love getting drunk; however, the game will not fall apart if there aren't rules for getting drunk because people know how getting drunk is generally supposed to be performed--however, if your game is Beerfest the RPG you need to refer to item 5.

But say you want people in your setting to be able to shoot fireballs out of their hands. There is no real-world equivalent for this activity, so you NEED RULES for this. Can only people with mutants genetics do this in your game? Do the fireballs hurt more than real fire? Is it something people can do all day? How long does it take for them to do this? And so on.

If your setting makes no mention of people being able to do this activity at all but you want people to do this then you either have bad rules or an incompatible setting. If your setting says that shooting fireballs is possible but is then vague on what happens afterwards in a situation where precise knowledge of how the fireball works is needed, then you have bad rules.

7) Rules will have different foci on what's important in the setting. This is not a failure of the rules unless it frequently causes the game to break down.

For example, in 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons there are rules for how long it takes to put on generic heavy armor. In Mutants and Masterminds there are not. This does not mean that this is a failure of the rules in Mutants and Masterminds, since putting on generic heavy armor is a technique that's so rare that it may not come up in over a thousand games.

However, if you were playing Kamen Rider RPG and there was not a rule for how long it took for people to put on (or rather, summon) their heavy armor in a game where you're expected to fight with it on and you spend a significant amount of time out of it, to the point where attacking an untransformed enemy was a common tactic, that is a failure of the rules. Which brings me to my eighth and final point.

8) Games should have just enough rules for what they want to simulate and nothing more.

People have a limited attention span and limited memory; if it's possible to compress a 300-page ruleset into 100-pages without losing function, then do so. It's up to the writer to envision all of the most common activities they want people to do in their game and make rules for them. For common activities, a certain aspect of the simulation (such as eating or talking) is so universal in acknowledgment of how they should be performed you can leave them out or write a bare-minimum blurb on it. Rule 5 helps tremendously on cutting activities down.

[Josh_Kablack]

Beerfest the RPG

Where can I get a copy? Wait, better make that a case of copies.

[shadzar]

9- Not all people that claim to be roleplayers are, or know what it is. This goes especially for those who began in the 21st century.

[Username17]

Beerfest the RPG

Where can I get a copy? Wait, better make that a case of copies.

Hasn't been written yet. Should it go on the stack?

I envision it as a 64 pager like Tales From the Floating Vagabond.

-Username17

[Judging__Eagle]

Frank.... could that game be made into something very short?

Like, a drinking game? >_>

9- Not all people that claim to be roleplayers are, or know what it is. This goes especially for those who began in the 2 e.

Fixed.

Thank you for the addition.

Remember, if you aren't immersed in the setting, and playing as if your characters live in the setting; you sure as fuck aren't roleplaying accurately.

Examples:

You're in a medieval setting; and someone mentions time in an in game manner. Specifically an hour. That breaks immersion, since there were no clocks that people carried around at the time.

You're a fighter, trained in the seven schools of weapon mastery. If you, as a player, don't know how to perform a face-hook and neck-stab on an enemy caster; don't sweat it. Honestly, if you did know how to do that in real life, I'd actually be sort of creeped out. Face-hooking and neck-slitting are dirty, dirty, techniques designed to frighten, disgust, maim and kill. However, that's exactly what your character would do when faced with a mumbley-worded spell caster.

You're a Mage. You know that in your world that magery consists of spending energy to cast spells; and that you recover them by resting at a Magical Node, or Studying your Spellbook. Advanced, and powerful Mages can regenerate faster. Clerics are similar, except that they can pray, or perform Devotions specific to their Patron god/godess; or well as pray at their temple or shrine. Clerics can train to be able to regenerate faster. Evil spellcasters sometimes use an ability called Siphon, this kills a helpless person, and gives all of their magical or spiritual energy to the Siphoning character; to a minimum of 1 ME or SE (choose what you are draining for when you attempt to Siphon).

---

Seriously, examples like that help players role play better than any sort of ambiguous or outright lying that a system could produce.

When a player is expected to invest at least 2+ years to get some abilities; then they better know what those abilities are, and how they work.

I'll be honest, the best roleplayers are the ones that understand the game systems that they are playing the best. Now, mind you, I'm talking about larpers, but it's not like their systems are exactly "simple", and often progression is a bitch.

The trick is always to know the setting you are in, and the way that the rules your characters use in-game are like.

If certain weapons don't cost anything to train; well, you can better believe that everyone who doesn't invest in weapon skills will get those weapons. There's a reason why most of the spellcasters in some settings are all clerics, who are also illiterate, and use maces or hammers as their preffered weapons. They're the most efficient way to become a spellcaster; and casters are always handy.

However, just because being an illiterate cleric is effective, doesn't mean that suddenly you will not roleplay. Heck, a lot of RP is driven specifically by clerics.

The theological debates when you sometimes have as much as 1/2 the town as clerics of different gods is interesting, to say the least. Everyone's got their own opinion, and sometimes they don't mesh.

[shadzar]

9- Not all people that claim to be roleplayers are, or know what it is. This goes especially for those who began in the 2 e.

Fixed.

Thank you for the addition.

Don't know any of them myself, so cannot speak for them since I started in the 70's.

Nice try though, but enjoy your fail.

[virgil]

Why are there two Roleplaying 101 threads? I suspect there's already a rule mentioned in this thread that the rules need to support the playstyle, mood, and genre of the game you want; and it is a failure of the rules if the players find themselves encouraged to engage in behavior counter to the intended genre. A generalization, of course, since there do exist players that will actually ignore the goals of both rules and setting to play what they want; like wanting to have the game be about tennis in D&D.

[shadzar]

Why are there two Roleplaying 101 threads?

Because it seemed funny to J_E to make another one 20 minutes after mine I guess.

You are probably looking for my thread, for those things you mention.

[ibanez]

Beerfest the RPG

Where can I get a copy? Wait, better make that a case of copies.

I second this.

[Roy]

Why are there two Roleplaying 101 threads? I suspect there's already a rule mentioned in this thread that the rules need to support the playstyle, mood, and genre of the game you want; and it is a failure of the rules if the players find themselves encouraged to engage in behavior counter to the intended genre. A generalization, of course, since there do exist players that will actually ignore the goals of both rules and setting to play what they want; like wanting to have the game be about tennis in D&D.

One was made by Shadtard, and is therefore useless by default, if not outright misleading.

[Sir Neil]

Beerfest the RPG

I want to run a crossover of this and the Sailor Moon RPG. Does that make me a bad person?

[Judging__Eagle]

Virgileso wrote:
I suspect there's already a rule mentioned in this thread that the rules need to support the playstyle, mood, and genre of the game you want; and it is a failure of the rules if the players find themselves encouraged to engage in behavior counter to the intended genre. A generalization, of course, since there do exist players that will actually ignore the goals of both rules and setting to play what they want; like wanting to have the game be about tennis in D&D.
_________________


Well, not specifically those ideas, but points 2 and 3 pretty much sum that up.

The setting of a game is really, and truly, a massive, and all-encompassing thing.

How the characters act in a setting is part of rule and world creation.

If the spell casting system using "tokens" that are magic; visible and able to be carried only to people who spent points on the first level of the "Control Magic" ability (a fairly non-expensive cost), then your "magic system" is actually an economic system of sorts.

Even characters that will never be a spellcaster, will spend the few points that it takes to get the first rank of the "Control Magic" ability. Since they want to be able to loot enemies for their magical 'currency'. And it can be used to 'buy' magical effects placed on a character it's a good way to keep yourself healed and buffed, since casters really resent being dinged for mana for healing or repairing armour, since you only get a set amount each game, and you don't generate more until the next game starts; you can also store and save up this mana for use later.

Awareness:

The name of the ability is awareness.

There are 5 levels and cost the following with the following benefits:

Lvl 1: 5 pts

Allows the character to see and hold 'mana' (the in game items), learn to cast spells, and to see Elemental circles.

Allows the charcter to have 1 timed spell active at any time

Lvl 2: 10 pts; 15 pts

Allows the character to link with other casters to increase spell effectiveness. There is no limit on characters that can do this, but no mage can cast at more than 3x their normal power

Allows the character to see if someone else is a mage by touching them.

Allows the character to learn any single basic types of magic and basic spells (lvl 1 of 5 for tiers of power for 'primal' (fire/water/air/earth); and lvl 1 spells only)

Lvl 3: 20 pts; 35 pts
a bunch of stuff:
-can borrow 'tiers of power' and spells from other spellcasters, with consent, or if unconsious
-allows characters to 'catch' mana that has been cast, if they say 'reform', the cast mana is now usable, and the spell has obviously, been canceled
-if you touch an other creature and know what their amount of magical abilities are (levels of awareness, power and specific spells). Targets must answer the character truthfully) [this has interesting effects, people usually ask if they want to shake, since contact can be used to learn an other character's power level]
-can have 2 time spells at once
-can learn level 2 tiers of power and lvl 2 spells without a teacher

Lvl 4: 40 pts; 75 pts

-character can draw mana from a target; have to pick what you want to draw though
-allows the character to borrow spells, mana, and tiers of power from a mage, just by touching them.
-can learn any tier 5 tiers of power for the primal elements or spells for primal spells without a teacher


Lvl 5: 80 pts; 155 pts

massive list:
-can destroy mana that an other creature is holding, basically cancelling a spell before it is cast, can destroy mana that a creature is also holding
-can suppress an other mage's awareness; you need to touch, and state how much you are reducing the other character's awareness by up to their own maximum amount of awareness. The character using this ability suffers the same effects. [Basically you can shut down any other spell caster if you use this ability, since there are no ranks of Awareness higher than 5]
-can take primal mana, and use it to make 'true' mana; takes 2 primal to make 1 true
-3 timed spells active at a time
-can learn tiers of power in true elements without a teacher. Can learn learn any primal elemental spell, or any lvl 1 true elemental spell w/out a teacher

It's a large and powerful skill, very few people have all 5 ranks; I think... maybe 4-6 out of 60 active members, and 100-ish total members.

[Username17]

Beerfest the RPG

I want to run a crossover of this and the Sailor Moon RPG. Does that make me a bad person?

I hope not, because that sounds like a great idea. My assumption is that Beerfest would run on the Munchhausen engine, with the primary changes being that you replace the wine with beer, and that instead of having a Title, you have a nick name. Having a player take upon the role of a sailor senshi or youma seems extremely fitting.

heck, I will start.

Character Generation
Hello, my name is Harold Billingsworth the Third. But you can call me Admiral.

During the game of Beerfest it is imperative, as one can surmise from the title, that one drink a considerable quantity of beer. What quantities need be considered are a deeply personal question based on one's past tendencies in this matter, but it is rarely a breach of etiquette to exhort a fellow traveler to refill their glass during an especially juicy tale. But before the first toast is lifted or the first story is spun, it is only proper manners that introductions be in order.

Introductions, like the stories themselves must be made in character, and preferably already at a state that is quite distinguishable from mere sobriety and from the gauchity of true drunken stupor. The maintenance of this happy state is after all much of the game, and it would be a shame to do anything of such monumental importance to the game whilst not actually being a part of it as such. And as it happens, it is generally imperative that you actually create your character before climbing into it for the remainder of the evening of festivities.

Your Name
Howard Bond, actually.

The first thing you should write down on your character sheet is your character's name. Your name speaks quite a bit about you as a person, but more importantly it says a lot about your past. If a man has a name that could easily be mistaken for a woman's name (or vice versa) it is easy to imagine the many frustrations and disappointments they have experienced involving mistaken genders not to mention the substantial amounts of mocking they must have encountered from other children when they were young. A person with a very rare name must surely have had to explain how it was pronounced a thousand times, while a person with a very common name has surely been unjustly overlooked again and again - and has doubtlessly been confused for another unrelated person more times than they would care to recount. Remember also that we live in enlightened times when a man can walk into the DMV and change their legal name for $12. Whatever indignities a person has had to endure over easy rhymes with their name, it's nonetheless a name that they have grown accustomed to and on the balance accepted as being theirs.

And so it is no light matter when you choose your character's name. It will be one of your first and most indelible declarations during the game. So when you have decided, write that name down boldly! And to emphasize the fact that this is the name you have chosen, you should underline it in a dark color of ink.

• For Example: Harold Billingsworth the Third can be readily seen to have been repeatedly compared to his father and his grandfather, as each had the same illustrious name as he does. Further, while we Harold is a pretty common name, Billingsworth is rather rare even in Great Britain. Harold has presumably been taunted for his name on numerous occasions. And we also note that he has elected to be 'Harold' rather than 'Harry' - a point with clear implications on his opinions on being linked to a certain boy wizard.

Your Nick Name
C'mon Red, what happened next?

During a game of Beerfest, we are all friends. So we don't call each other Dr. So-and-so or such similar over-formalities. Indeed, we don't even refer to each other by name, but instead by their nick name. This nomme de plume is a declaration of your identity as ascribed to yourself by your own actions and demeanor. In many ways, a character's nick name speaks more about them than their given name. Because while a person's real name can be changed at any time with proper registration, a person's nick name is a purely social construct and cannot be fully lived down.

It is important to note that you as a player cannot fully control your nickname. Any proposed nickname that is simply not a good fit or worse one which is hard to say without the benefit of sobriety is going to inevitably be replaced by something else, regardless of the contents of one's character sheet. Therefore the player should be advised to choose for themselves a nickname that they can live up to - and one which over people can easily remember. This does not mean that a character's nick name need be truthful, for indeed there are at least as many nicknames that have been ascribed due to irony as to legitimate reference.

However, once a character's nickname is shown, it can be readily appreciated that other participants will doubtlessly want to know the why in addition to the what of your nickname. And so you should be prepared to tell the story of your nickname at least three times in as many different ways even before introductions have even been completed. It should be stressed, that enlargement upon tales is praiseworthy over and above even telling them in the first place; and as such it is not expected that these tellings be somehow mutually compatible. However, while they might wander about or even contradict themselves, there should be at least a vague appreciation that the person's question of why you are called that has been answered, or at least partially addressed.

Once your nickname has been settled upon in a final form, it should be written down on your character sheet. However, because it is of perhaps greater importance than your name, the font should be both taller and bolder than that given to your character's legal name. It should also be underlined, not once, but twice for additional emphasis.

• Example: Why do they call me 'Admiral' when it seems much more appropriate to call me 'Black Beard'? That's an interesting question, but see at the time I had not yet achieved the lustrous facial hair you see before you today. Indeed, when I stole my first boat, I was just a callow lad, busily escaping my father's plantation. Of course, at the time I was just called "Hairy Pirate" in light of my bare chin and my choice of profession. Aye, but children can be cruel. It was only after I had risen in rank to command the boat entirely after the crocodile experience that the other boys stopped making fun of me and gave me a rank. Indeed, by the time I had much of a bear to speak of, the bloom had come off the rose entirely as making references to my facial hair - or lack thereof. I had seen to that, and so bear or no, the name 'Admiral' has stuck.

At this point your character sheet is complete. For particularly large games of Beerfest, it may be advisable to write your character sheet on paper that is sticky on one side and then paste it to your breast so that those who have strayed close to winning or losing at the game can have their memories jogged as to your identity long after introductions have passed.

---

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

There cannot be any nonsense about "you don't know that X gives you better stats at Y", since that's insane by real life standards. In real life, you know when you are using a good tool for a job, or the wrong tool for the job.

Well no, not exactly. The fact that people don't know specific facts about the world (especially in a dark ages setting) is actually very realistic.

Seriously, you may not know if a bastard sword is a more effective weapon than a longsword or a spear. It's not like there's guys running equivalence tests like on Deadliest warrior, and even if there were, those tests leave out so many factors that it's very difficult to figure out which weapon is overall better in battlefield conditions. I mean seriously, if it were obvious, we wouldn't have so many katana versus longsword debates out there. Like in real life, you're going to end up with multiple people with different opinions over which is better. And generally it comes down to fighting style. People who used katanas will think that their weapon is awesome because the fighting styles are built to highlight its advantages. The same is true of warhammers, longswords and so on.

As far as general mechanics of how the world works, there are numerous myths (see any episode of Mythbusters for examples). People really don't know exactly how the world works, and the world works via science. Start factoring magic into the equation, it's really not surprising at all that people may not know shit about their world. Even in the modern age with the internet and all that crap, there's still a lot of misconceptions. Imagine if you got most of your information from passing travellers and uneducated peasants.

[hogarth]

There cannot be any nonsense about "you don't know that X gives you better stats at Y", since that's insane by real life standards. In real life, you know when you are using a good tool for a job, or the wrong tool for the job.

Well no, not exactly. The fact that people don't know specific facts about the world (especially in a dark ages setting) is actually very realistic.

For some things, yes. But you would certainly have an option as to whether something is easy or hard if you've tried it before. For instance, if I saw a 10' wide pit, I wouldn't try to jump over it; I've jumped over stuff before, and I'm pretty sure that 10' is beyond me. Likewise, a 10th level fighter should be able to hazard a guess whether that's an easy or hard thing to do.

[Judging__Eagle]

-nod- RC, that's true.

I was specifically focusing on whether a +1 or a +2 weapon is going to have a noticable difference.

Believe me, it will.

A better made weapon is lighter in your hands, will feel more solid, and will be better balanced. A worse weapon will be heavier, will feel flimsy, and will be annoying to swing.

The difference between two different swords of different styles will be obvious, and people will pick weapons built for their own style and physiognomy. Some people like lighter weapons, some prefer more solid ones.

However, the person holding the weapon will feel the difference in the wielding of the weapon.

I've seen people decide that they wanted more length on their weapon since they are an average sized person, but their opponents are often more than average size (a 5'6' person vs people who are in the 6' to 6'5" height ranges).

I've seen people want ultralight weapons. Since they have to fight for hours, and don't want to fuck up their shoulders. Honestly, better technique would help with this.

I've seen people prefer to have heavier weapons since they can block the enemy easier with them.

Heck, I've seen people get all sorts of crazy things done to their weapons to make them either able to do something that they couldn't before, or try to make their weapons look better.

[RandomCasualty2]

I was specifically focusing on whether a +1 or a +2 weapon is going to have a noticable difference.

Believe me, it will.

A better made weapon is lighter in your hands, will feel more solid, and will be better balanced. A worse weapon will be heavier, will feel flimsy, and will be annoying to swing.

Yeah, it's not hard to tell in a heads up competition if one longsword is better than another, as far as balance, lightness of materials and so on. An experienced warrior should be able to figure that stuff out.

Now, you probably don't know much durability wise as to how the weapon is going to hold together in battle, since strength of materials isn't always obvious.

[Judging__Eagle]

Well, you can tell by how the weapon is put together.

If there's a full tang with the pommel attached solidly; and the handle wrapped around the tang, then it's a solid weapon that's not going to snap.

Flimy weapons tend to rattle, or vibrate.

There are some basics to metallurgy that a person can pick up from being around different materials.

Wood is cheap, and can be effective when there's nothing else to use.

Steel is more solid, but can rust.

Someone people make the incorrect assumption that "iron" can rust; which is bullshit, since the purer the iron content of an object, the more durable it is. There's a column in India with a 90%+ percentage of iron in it's mass, and it's over a thousand years old, having sat exposed to the elements for a long period of time.

Something like bronze is a POS, but won't corrode easily.

Silver is only important if your game has things vulnerable to silver. If not, it's a weaker weapon, always.

If you picked up something made out of Adamantine or Mithral, you'd notice that it's different. The colour, weight, durability and other properties would make it obvious that the weapon is not the same as others.

An adamantine sword can seriously cut a rock as if it was a watermelon. It's a dark, or black, metal that can cut a sword, tree or rock in half. Honestly, Adamantine weapons should be more dangerous if we're really considering the fact that they can chop rocks in half to be equally applicable to creatures. Just ignoring physical defenses to AC when it strikes. Only Adamantine Armour works against Adamantine weapons; as well as non-physical bonuses to AC. Or physical bonuses count for 1/2.

A mithral sword is as tough as a steel one, and looks like it's made of silver. However is lighter than a steel sword. Seriously, think of a Titanium 'anything', that's what Mithral looks like.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Wait, so Beerfest encompasses people who aren't just from the 21st century?

So my Beer Drinking team can include a viking who is all goggle-eyed at the new drinks, a fratboy with an unlimited credit amount, a Russian general feigning incompetence during the Great Purge, a hardcore riverboat gambler who drinks between card games, and a 19th century hooker with a heart of gold who likes embarrassing manly men?

Archetypes:

Thug: Thugs are well-known for raping and pillaging. However, their rage brings a certain je ne se quos to the table that all beer-drinking teams need. When pressed for a physical challenge or in a barfight, they can enter a snarling rage which lets them accomplish things extra hardcore at the cost of operating at reduced capacity after the rage is over.

Fratboy: While fratboys are noted for being obnoxious to everyone but other fratboys, their enthusiasm for the culture of hardcore drinking is undeniable. They provide bonuses to other drinkers on their team through a combination of cheering and hazing especially when playing games.

Sailor: The tradition of sailors drinking (grog) goes back almost as far as there has been a deepwater Navy, since alcohol was used as an antiseptic and pacifier. Through some weird Lamarckism even sailors in Navies that don't allow their personnel to drink can put down an incredible amount of booze; so sailors from the 8th century work just the same as sailors from the 21st century. Sailors are known for raising hell that not even a viking can match so get large bonuses in bar-fights and have a sixth sense for detecting booze.

Riverboat Gambler: There were basically three things you can do on riverboats; drink, fuck, and gamble. The best of the batch are accustomed at doing all three at once, impeded by neither drunkenness nor whiskey-dick. Gamblers gain bonuses to faking out their foes and even can cheat at certain games when it's necessary.

20th Century Soldier: Warfare during the 20th century got extremely shitty, especially if you were a Russian or slogging away in the trenches. I'm not surprised that you developed a drinking problem during this time. However, the rotgut you got addicted to was horrible therefore you have a tolerance for alcohol out the roof. You put cough syrup in your absinthe to 'give it a little sweetness'.

[Red Archon]

So where do I sign up for Beerfest? Could there be a Skype game for it? May I also suggest thematic splatbooks? "Beerfest: Backwoods Brawl," "Beerfest: In the Matrix," or "Beerfest: Biker Mice from Mars vs. Pokémon?"

[Tshern]

9- Not all people that claim to be roleplayers are, or know what it is. This goes especially for those who began in the 2 e.

Fixed.

Thank you for the addition.

Don't know any of them myself, so cannot speak for them since I started in the 70's.

Nice try though, but enjoy your fail.

Not too diverse a group of people you play with then?

[shadzar]

Many people that I game with today did not start in 2e. Either 1st or before or 3.5.

A few did start with me under 2nd, but don't recall it, and beg me to run a game, but I won't run a game for those that started with 3rd because they are too obsessed with shit.

Shit for the character sheet, shit for the characters, and shit to fight. I don't run mindless combat games, and would direct them to the miniature games at the store.

Not enough to play 2nd that can met at the same time. But they didn't start the normal 2e way. I brought them into the games I ran as a Basic style of play. They got the books only for creating a character, and looking up a spell if needed.

Other than that they learned the DM makes everything else work together and how exactly it works, doesn't matter for them to have fun, because they could do anything no matter what the rules had or didn't have. Gary, Zeb, Tweet, etc don't run my games, I do. There ideas of how to play never cross into my games, they just provided guidelines and some stats to run them. Ed Greenwood had so little influence in my FR games, it was like he didn't exist in them. Even the novel lovers said the books wouldn't play and didn't want to.

It is really a generation gap created by the influx of new players from 3rd that had never played before.

And the above comment said to one girl, will me you end up in a wheelchair for life....if you can sit with your legs shoved up your ass, or after they are surgically removed from it.

[ckafrica]

You forgot:

Asian bar girl how is it that they can drink with you all night, act like they didn't have drink in the morning and manage to hack all your bank accounts while you were passed out in a puddle of your own filth? WHether it is their herbal remedies or crafty slight of hand, when you're going round for round, few opponents are more dangerous than an 80 pound girl with bad English.