Are your humans humans?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:42 pm

When an RPG lists various races to choose from, and one of those happens to be human, do you think of this as yourself being that race, or do you think in some way it is a term meaning something else, and if something else what could/does it mean if not ourselves? Why?

Archmage · Post by **Archmage** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:07 pm

I think it refers to a race/species of humans that is similar to but not exactly identical to those that exist in the real world. Because they cannot be exactly the same. The worlds are too different; evolutionary pressures aren't going to be the same, for example. It is totally unreasonable to assume that humans in a fantasy setting are exactly the same as humans in the real world, even from a basic biological standpoint. Especially settings where magic is prevalent.

And biology is just scratching the surface; human cultures are extremely varied in the real world. Most people can't even properly "identify" with a person from another country who doesn't share their basic cultural assumptions, which makes it extremely easy to dehumanize foreigners.

As such, it's a race I'm going to identify with because it's a "nearest neighbor" or "close fit." But fantasy-world humans are fantasy-world humans specific to their setting and resemble those from our world only superficially.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:10 pm

I don't ever think of my rpg character as myself. Ever. It would be silly. Especially in the scope of something as unrealistic as DnD. What I make when I play is an RP character. I view him (as I always play a him) the same as I would a character I wrote. He might have similar motivations or patterns of thought as me but he most certainly is not me in any other since. not even by species (which I think is your main point).
"Human" in DnD means about the same to me as "elf" or "orc". Their just labels and I think about those labels the same as I would in any other book or setting I read into. Their specifics, I assume, adheres to the "rules" and "mechanics" of the world/story/setting I read about them in.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:11 pm

The existence of just about any Fantasy creature requires suspension of disbelief. The existence of earthly biology in parallel to wights and manticores even more so. This is one of those situations where is old cop out of 'they came from somewhere else' (AKA 'the gods made them) is probably the most plausible explanation.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:59 pm

In my main fantasy RPG setting, "humans" are a universally dark-skinned raced of jungle people who can climb most sheer walls due to their uncanny agility and balance combined with their sturdy claws (which are unsuitable for use as weapons. Punching is more effective). They can eat acorns and many similar substances raw and they crack nut shells with their teeth. This is good, since many of them live the entirety of their lives on a single colossal city-tree in the deep jungle.

I don't view myself as this species.

---------------------------------------------------

In Shadowrun, humans can arbitrarily benefit more from being named characters in a plot.

I do not share this inherent racial ability, and the physics of the real world work differently from those in Shadowrun. Dem humies be fundamentally different.

Jilocasin · Post by **Jilocasin** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:16 pm

Whenever I see human listed alongside typical fantasy races (elf, gnome, dwarf, etc) I assume that it means a superficial similarity at best. In my mind fantasy human does not equal homo sapiens sapiens. As far as I'm concerned there's no way it's possible to view earth human the same as fantasy rpg human. I can't learn how to rip through the fabric of space and time with my mind, I can't have some inborn ability to channel arcane energy from dalliance my great-great-great-great-great grandmother had with some shapeshifted dragon (and in that case I definitely wouldn't be earth human by any stretch of the imagination). I can learn how to fight, and have to a degree, but I could never hope to achieve the same level of martial prowess that some high level fighter type should have.

When I play a hero, he'd better be heroic and able to eventually do crazy-awesome stuff that no person from our world could never dream of doing in the body that they currently possess. So no, to me they are not the same.

Gnosticism Is A Hoot · Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:18 pm

In most of the games I play, humans are the only available character race. You don't get a lot of Orcs in Wuxia or pulp fiction.

Bearing that in mind, 'humans' in different literary genres can be very different from real-world humans. In most Wuxia settings, you really really can jump for miles and kill people by looking at them if you train hard enough, and magic's not necessary. The same is true for many mythological characters. There wasn't anything particularly magical about Roland, for example.

Similarly, in pulp fiction (and 'action' fiction in general) the characters are capable of feats that go beyond the real-world human maximum.

So my answer is 'yes, and no'.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:23 pm

So like in Last Action Hero, Arnold was likened to an RPG character in the movie, but when he came through the screen he lost his "RPGness" and became human human?

Gnosticism Is A Hoot · Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:27 pm

shadzar wrote:So like in Last Action Hero, Arnold was likened to an RPG character in the movie, but when he came through the screen he lost his "RPGness" and became human human?

That's certainly an interesting way to think about it. I guess I was trying to point out that the human baseline is different in different genres, and you can't expect humans to have similar abilities in different settings.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:08 am

I tend to think of most races in fantasy stuff as humans. You have your green humans, your underground humans, your tall humans, your wispy humans and your blue humans who just happen to breathe water but build 2d cities underwater for no discernable reason.

Every time I see a game saying it has so many customizable races and they're just different forehead or color humans, it really annoys me. Seriously, all you could think of was to make them different colors? Why? Why don't they have animal heads or tails or wings or look like floaty aliens or robots or something?

It just bugs me that some games say that have other races, but they're really just rainbow colored humans.

-Crissa

Gnosticism Is A Hoot · Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:12 am

Crissa wrote:I tend to think of most races in fantasy stuff as humans. You have your green humans, your underground humans, your tall humans, your wispy humans and your blue humans who just happen to breathe water but build 2d cities underwater for no discernable reason.

Every time I see a game saying it has so many customizable races and they're just different forehead or color humans, it really annoys me. Seriously, all you could think of was to make them different colors? Why? Why don't they have animal heads or tails or wings or look like floaty aliens or robots or something?

It just bugs me that some games say that have other races, but they're really just rainbow colored humans.

-Crissa

This. Demihumans are dull. How many RPGs include genuinely alien character races? The only one that springs to mind is Exalted - the Yozi and the Raksha aren't human in any remote sense at all.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:02 am

I'd think the lack of true alien races is because you'd want every race to have the same functionality of regular humans. I really don't find races with tails or animal heads really that divergent from humans. If you're talking about getting really out there with the races I'd think you'd be talking about the monsters themselves, particularly the intelligent ones. Which do exist.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:28 am

Battle Stations has varied races which are definitely not demi-human wannabes. Course it is moreso a battle/tactical simulation than an RPG, though I tried nominally playing it as an RPG where our characters interacted more than just as minis on a map.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:59 am

Certainly, MGuy. But if some game wants to talk about how interesting their races are and then shows me basically funny-colored humans, it just pisses me off to so end, because they could have done that Busyworld style and made something far more visually interesting.

-Crissa

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:19 am

So Crissa, you see most races in games a us, just with a new coat of paint?

IE:
Elves - pointy eared humans (like Spock)
Haflings - short hairy footed humans
Dwarves - short fat humans
etc

You see a race labeled human as generic us humans, and want to see the 7-legged, asexual reproduction, no head but eyes where their stomach should be, winged races?

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:26 am

More than (sound)

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:40 am

I tend to equate any intelligent creature with being "human" in my gameplay.

Kobolds, Orcs, Hobgoblis, reptilianoids of all sizes and shapes.

A dragon is really not going to be that much different than a human in terms of what they are like. They're more powerful, have more resources, and time than a human, but I've got a feeling that a human would act the same way.

Dragons almost all seem to want to bone a "lesser" race; meaning that they're probably not lesser at anything except being a dragon. Recruit their 1/2 dragon super-kids to be lieutenants in their organizations; and boss around mooks of some kind to establish a power base.

that is seriously "the dragon's plan" in several D&D sources.

That's not even when the dragon has to choose between evil mastermind or heartless tyrant; those are often when the dragon has to choose between good or awesome.

The problem is not that humans in D&D aren't humans. The real problem is that the monsters in D&D are humans.

Everything in D&D land is some sort of human, masquerading as a weird, or unnatural, monster.

Even if they have round ears, don't need beards, are around 5 to 6 feet tall on average, and can't see in the dark, or talk to badgers for shits and giggles.

The fact that any human can "take a level of wizard"; at almost any time, means that the humans in this D&D land are vurry diffrent than humans from Sol's Earth.

Remember, D&D land is a place where winged creatures like Chimera, Dragons and Pegasus can actually fly, because they have wings (they can't fly because of their wings, they have wings b/c they can fly; big difference).

Let's not even get into the mention of Beholders or Asperii. One is a self-controlled gas bag; the other rides the air as if it was an invisible, floating, road.

Discussing "earth physics" isn't even on the table anymore. As soon as you have stuff like a troll regenerating limbs (makes for a good high protein substitute for cattle feed; eh? eh? eeehhhhh?) breaking the laws of conservation of mass and energy, there is no reason to claim "humans can't do bizarre, supernatural, stuff". I mean, what were Spell Casters, and Clerics doing the whole time? Shooting crossbows, or swinging maces and bandaging people?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:30 am

Grafting animal heads onto humans doesn't make them any more special or interesting. Humans already have animal heads.

Frankly, throwing in small humans and large humans is way more different and interesting than making furries. Ogres and halflings are both more out-there, paradigm shifting, and creative than gnolls. Richard Scary crap exists for one reason and one reason only: people are less critical of flaws in representations of animals that are not apes. In short, making races with dog heads is simply a lazy shortcut for people who lack the talent to draw believable humans with orange or purple skin.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:01 am

The problem with really inhuman non-humans is that most people won't want to have sex with them, and as such, a conservative estimate says you'll lose 80% of your sales. Seriously, given porn is what makes the world go round, it is important to have more aliens/monsters looking like those evil Jovians (see: Gekiganger III Martian Successor Nadesico) and less looking like the Kroot.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:28 am

D&D tries so pathetically to get people to play things like dwarves and gnomes by publishing ridiculous feats for them and people still resist their attempts now and then. Look deep within yourself and put yourself in the mindframe of the average person who is into heroic fantasy. How many of said people do you think that you can get to play anything more out-there than a dragonborn? And before you answer that question, imagine how many fans of Twilight would have still read Twilight if the vampires were more like Nosferatu than the abomination they were in the book?

Putting kitty ears on humans is a good compromise. I'm sorry if that seems trite, but the only thing worse than a lazy cliche is a plot point that gets intentionally ignored or circumvented.

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:45 pm

Ugh. Twilight. Rrgh.

Heck, a comedic *spinoff* of Nosferatu has better vampires.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DLJN7i2UHc&feature=fvw

(In context of scene, the men are convinced that the vampire is actually a really good method actor hired to play in the movie nosferatu, not a real vampire. The concept of the movie is that the actor in Nosferatu was a real vampire)

___

As for dragons always wanting to bone humans, it's not just dragons.

It's EVERYTHING. Throughout the fantasy genre. Humans have super breeding powers and super interracial pheromones.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:52 pm

Koumei wrote:The problem with really inhuman non-humans is that most people won't want to have sex with them, and as such, a conservative estimate says you'll lose 80% of your sales. Seriously, given porn is what makes the world go round, it is important to have more aliens/monsters looking like those evil Jovians (see: Gekiganger III Martian Successor Nadesico) and less looking like the Kroot.

Um no. I don't think gamers all want to have sex with the other races int he game.

You are trying to equate all gaming by the otaku scale. It doesn't work like that. While progenation may be a factor in that you can end up with a half-elf, it really isn't all about sex.

Are you saying gamers just play RPGs to think about sex with the races in them?

So then the races approximate humans so they are easier to picture having sex with?

Then explain beastiality in the real world. Women using fish/eels/dogs...men using gerbels/hamsters/sheep.

I can't think that sex is the only connection, unless you are saying that all RPG gamers are sex deprived perverts. Is that what you are saying, or just meaning similar functionality of the body types?

The whole "want to have sex with them" bit is kind of frightening.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:01 pm

Caedrus wrote:=

As for dragons always wanting to bone humans, it's not just dragons.

It's EVERYTHING. Throughout the fantasy genre. Humans have super breeding powers and super interracial pheromones.

It's not just wanting to boink humans. Dragons want to boink EVERYTHING, and are capable of producing offspring by doing so.

A trait shared by celestials and fiends. Humans are approaching this quality, but the reproduction is limited to sapient species. Although if not totally limited to fellow sapients, it would explain the centaur.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:28 pm

http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF059-Disgusting_Ted.jpg

God_of_Awesome · Post by **God_of_Awesome** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:57 pm

shadzar wrote:
Koumei wrote:The problem with really inhuman non-humans is that most people won't want to have sex with them, and as such, a conservative estimate says you'll lose 80% of your sales. Seriously, given porn is what makes the world go round, it is important to have more aliens/monsters looking like those evil Jovians (see: Gekiganger III Martian Successor Nadesico) and less looking like the Kroot.
Um no. I don't think gamers all want to have sex with the other races int he game.

You are trying to equate all gaming by the otaku scale. It doesn't work like that. While progenation may be a factor in that you can end up with a half-elf, it really isn't all about sex.

Are you saying gamers just play RPGs to think about sex with the races in them?

So then the races approximate humans so they are easier to picture having sex with?

Then explain beastiality in the real world. Women using fish/eels/dogs...men using gerbels/hamsters/sheep.

I can't think that sex is the only connection, unless you are saying that all RPG gamers are sex deprived perverts. Is that what you are saying, or just meaning similar functionality of the body types?

The whole "want to have sex with them" bit is kind of frightening.

Another point koumei is wrong on: Those who think much of sex aren't already deprived enough to bang kroots. It's called xenophilia

But no, we make them human-ish to make them relatable. A gnoll is easily more relatable (And bangable if you get the right artist) the say.... a hutt.

Look, I don't know where I was going with this but I'm posting this half-worded opinion anyway.

The Gaming Den

Are your humans humans?

Are your humans humans?

Re: Are your humans humans?