Weaning people off of the Martial power source.

[Kaiterra]

That's not really what I meant at all.

They'd still have superior combat prowess and thus would be the only characters in your party who would actually deserve all the magic items you find, because the items themselves would almost entirely be built specifically to accentuate their skills rather than the wizard's.

[Username17]

That's not really what I meant at all.

They'd still have superior combat prowess and thus would be the only characters in your party who would actually deserve all the magic items you find, because the items themselves would almost entirely be built specifically to accentuate their skills rather than the wizard's.

....But... how or why would that happen if the magic items were made by Wizards?

The only way that Fighters as Gadget Whores works is if the magic items are made by and for Fighters and the Wizards and Clerics can't use them. Like seriously, you're talking about replacing the Fighter with the Soulborn. Wizards get spells, Fighters get Chakras that they can fill with magic items.

Could work, but it sounds incredibly unsatisfying to me. You just have to accept that if you're going by the Action Heroes genre, that warriors above a certain point are required by law to be Arcane Warriors or Divine Warriors. That's literally the only solution to wanting Val Kilmer and Bavmorda to both be in your game. Val Kilmer has to level up into Spawn or some other magic-warrior who can actually fight enemies like Bavmorda. Being a guy who doesn't have magic powers is a defined econiche that fucking ends when the enemy Controllers can control absolutely everyone who doesn't have magic powers.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

It's strange. It's as if D&D were written in such a way that it expects the DM to hand out holy avengers and artifact swords like candy, but the 1e/2e models were very much players vs. DM. Since the DM's goal was to kill off characters, it would serve him well not to hand out powerful magic items.

[Lago PARANOIA]

That's not really what I meant at all.

They'd still have superior combat prowess and thus would be the only characters in your party who would actually deserve all the magic items you find, because the items themselves would almost entirely be built specifically to accentuate their skills rather than the wizard's.

1) Making only certain characters use magical items is a dumb idea. 4E actually got off to a great start with implements. But then they fucked it up by making the PCs look like untalented pussies because they need magical items to compete but not monsters.

2) In-universe, why would wizards do such a thing? Why wouldn't they just make generic magical items--or better yet--magical items that just benefit themselves?

3) Most importantly, it still doesn't make the character interesting. The Fighter is still no different from a commoner loaded to the gills with gear, it's just that to the long list of abilities they suddenly add 'can swing a sword better than most'.

Why make an entire class that revolves around one ability? Wizards don't have just one ability, clerics don't have just one ability, psions don't just have one ability, so what's the deal with fighters?

[Psychic Robot]

The only way that Fighters as Gadget Whores works is if the magic items are made by and for Fighters and the Wizards and Clerics can't use them.

You could give some lame fluff justification like "wizards are magic; the magic they wield competes with the magic in magic items," but that's pretty lame. You could also outright tell the DM, "Hey, if you're playing in a high level game, the fighter needs to have tons of magical equipment."

As someone who thinks that wizards should get more nice things than fighters (but not too nice of things), I think that telling the DM that the fighter needs magical equipment outright instead of disguising it as wealth-by-level is a better solution. Heck, you could even do something like the reputation system in Unearthed Arcana and use it to locate and purchase magical items at a discount.

Something that I might also do is create magical equipment sets that the fighter can wear. Instead of the 3e mishmash of equipment—the +5 sword, the +5 armor, the cloak of resistance, the ring of freedom of movement, the boots of levitation—I’d create Diablo-esque sets that would confer level-appropriate bounses. (I’d probably not allow sets to be mixed and matched, though.)

All sets of armor would provide basic bonuses to keep the fighter on the RNG, and each set would provide additional boons as the fighter leveled up. For example, demonskin armor might give the fighter a hellfire aura (fire damage to nearby foes, extra damage when grappled or grappling, eventually bypasses fire immunity), demon wings (grow wings to fly around, better maneuverability and speed later on), a flamespitter sword (sword that causes anyone hit to burn for extra damage, can shoot flames once or twice per encounter), and so on.

[virgil]

In a setting where the real caster is a BBEG, what's wrong with having casters with the "auto-win if they aren't a caster" magic be NPC only? You can be flashier with your magic than Willow was in the movie and still be a PC.

When you're positing a setting/genre where magic items are only useful for fighter-types, you don't need to ask "why do wizards make them instead of stuff for themselves". It'd be a setting facet as set in stone as "why doesn't create watter drown people". Wizards would still make them because they want allies on par with them, and factory-making peers is easier than training them.

EDIT: As for the annoyance of fighters using gear instead of inherent awesomeness, that's just how it rolls. K makes a good point, many flat-out want to play a 'regular' guy and aren't that interested in playing a fighter where the lasers are part of their eyes rather than their sword.

[violence in the media]

But then is the message for people that want their awesome to be inherent (as opposed to gear-dependent) to just play wizards?

[Kobajagrande]

For what its worth, "fighter awesomness" really depends on how is it presented.

If a fighter comes to a duel against an invisible, flying wizard, and, in turn, combines the PEDO BEAR style, a style which makes him move so fast he's invisible to a naked eye, with UNLADEN EUROPEAN SWALLOW maneuver that makes him ignore gravity, thanks to his WILL TO PROTECT which makes all those things possible, well, I can imagine bunch of people will cry lame.

However, if the same fighter senses the wizard's location due to subtle movements of the wind, grabs a spear stabbed into the ground and throws it at the wizard with incredible speed, piercing him through his gut, then I can't see even the "nonmagical fighter" group complaining.

[hogarth]

In a setting where the real caster is a BBEG, what's wrong with having casters with the "auto-win if they aren't a caster" magic be NPC only? You can be flashier with your magic than Willow was in the movie and still be a PC.

I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it. "Dungeon Master" or "Venger" is the magical NPC, "Presto" is the magical PC.

[Username17]

In a setting where the real caster is a BBEG, what's wrong with having casters with the "auto-win if they aren't a caster" magic be NPC only? You can be flashier with your magic than Willow was in the movie and still be a PC.

I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it. "Dungeon Master" or "Venger" is the magical NPC, "Presto" is the magical PC.

And yet... again and still that's just putting off the inevitable. If characters can gain power then Presto has a clear in-world thing to aspire to being. Bobby... doesn't. At the point that things have escalated to Presto pulling Venger trance remixes and horde enemies being bad ass enough to actually threaten the party anyhow, Bobby is completely fucking useless. Bobby needs to graduate to pulling Venger-style antics of his own or his mere barbarian smackings aren't going to be a meaningful contribution to the party.

-Username17

[MartinHarper]

You could give some lame fluff justification like "wizards are magic; the magic they wield competes with the magic in magic items," but that's pretty lame.

We cope with 3e Arcane Spell Failure, which is much the same lame fluff justification.

[virgil]

But then is the message for people that want their awesome to be inherent (as opposed to gear-dependent) to just play wizards?

It's not so much giving that kind of message to players, so much as communicating the only message that the players will listen to.

Yes, you can have fighters perform the feats of Hercules and Cuchulain, but that is a different game. There are at least a few people on this Den who professed such a desire. But that is a minority in the roleplaying community for whatever reason. Many gamers want their fighters to look like the movie rendition of Madmortigan or Gimli, and look down on fighters such as the Nameless Soldier from Hero as juvenile power fantasies; but see nothing wrong when they have artifacts or wizards do the same thing with magic.

[Judging__Eagle]

Magic items have a requirment to be used.

You can't actually use a scaling Magic Sword unless you have a BaB that is greater than 3/4 of your levels.

So, Gandalf carries, seriously, a +1 or +5 sword. That's it. His weapon will never scale, ever.

Aragorn picks up any magic weapon, and it automatically scales to be appropriate to his level.

Wizards can 'learn' and 'cast' Greater Magic Weapon.

Fighters get it at will, when holding a weapon.

Characters having items with their name on it is pretty stock. Bilbo had Sting, which he gave to Frodo, who got KO'd, and then Samwise grabbed it to save his friend/boss. Sam was actually a fighter of some kind, Frodo almost never actually fought.

Heck, that could be a non-casters main ability, they can use magic items that are permanent. Spell casters are the only ones that can use 'temporary' magical items.

And that's a 'hard' limit; and how character's are forced to spend their wealth. Potions, are actually 'prepared flasks' and are refillable, but they need to be filled in advance, so Adventurers will prep a bunch of potions in advance, in order to use their "Potion Vial" magic item.

Scrolls, wands, staffs, those are all Full-caster, or partial-caster, items.

Weapons, armour, Clothing, Amulets, etc. are for characters that are not full-casters.

Stuff like Bards, Rangers, Paladins are accepted as being sort of sucky, b/c they can go on both sides of the fence.

[K]

Ok, a lot of people replied, so I'll just go over the basics:

The DnD iconic trope of "magic is a technology that anyone can use" has got to go.

People need to pay class features for powers as good as class features. This means that at X level when a Wizard chooses a new spell like Fireball, some other character like a fighter needs to choose how to make his Flame Sword create Fire Waves.

Then you put magic items everywhere. Fire Swords are literally sold in high-end shops and in the hands of bandit leaders, BUT only powerful heroes can make those Fire Swords do anything more interesting than being a light source and easy way to light campfires.

Fighters can still get interesting nonmagical abilities: being charming can be the nonmagical version of mind control, fancy coup de grace strikes instead of death rays, and parrying lightning bolts with swords instead of casting dispel magic, but at the stage when people should be doing overtly magical things like planehopping the wizard gets a gate spell and the warrior takes his lightning spear and pokes a hole in the universe.

[God_of_Awesome]

the warrior takes his lightning spear and pokes a hole in the universe.

Okay, that's just ridiculous.

Ridiculously awesome and lulzy but still ridiculous. If I saw that in a sourcebook, I'd call 'Bullshit!' and then 'Let's do it!'

[Leress]

the warrior takes his lightning spear and pokes a hole in the universe.

Okay, that's just ridiculous.

Ridiculously awesome and lulzy but still ridiculous. If I saw that in a sourcebook, I'd call 'Bullshit!' and then 'Let's do it!'

Well not exactly a spear.

http://xiaolinshowdown.wikia.com/wiki/G ... iger_Claws

[Ice9]

Actually, having magic items only usable by non-casters is pretty easy to explain in a non-arbitrary way:
People are batteries. More powerful people hold more power. Spells use power. Items use power. Weak items, like a Ring of Sustenance, can run off the ambient magic, like being solar-powered.

But anything major, that takes power - power which would come out of a Wizard's spell allotment, but that the Fighter has and isn't using. So Wizards might actually have one or two items, for specific situations, but they won't be using them often. Fighters though, get kitted out.

And for Fighters who hate items, there could be a feat that lets you inherently learn X number of power-fueled abilities. Which is what the Hercules/Cuchulain types will be going for.

[K]

Actually, having magic items only usable by non-casters is pretty easy to explain in a non-arbitrary way:
People are batteries. More powerful people hold more power. Spells use power. Items use power. Weak items, like a Ring of Sustenance, can run off the ambient magic, like being solar-powered.

But anything major, that takes power - power which would come out of a Wizard's spell allotment, but that the Fighter has and isn't using. So Wizards might actually have one or two items, for specific situations, but they won't be using them often. Fighters though, get kitted out.

And for Fighters who hate items, there could be a feat that lets you inherently learn X number of power-fueled abilities. Which is what the Hercules/Cuchulain types will be going for.

Any number of explanations are possible: maybe it takes practice to remember to cast spells and use items, like a foreign language, and part of being a hero is that you only have to many hours in a day to practice but as you advance you need less practice and incorporate more things into your routine. Maybe heroes just have a fixed number of inborn talents and becoming a hero is about discovering what they are. Maybe learning to cast spells requires you build a memory palace in your head which runs counter to the intuitive revelations needed to pull power out of items... whatever.....

For people that want magic power without items, there are a number of potential options. Demonic or clockwork grafts, an emerging supernatural or divine heritage, magic tattoos.... the list is long and varied. Go nuts. This means wuxia Monks can fight Arthur and the Hulk and no one has to worry about the Hulk running around with Excaliber.

[Judging__Eagle]

I'd say to have being able to use permant items, use 'charged' items, cast spells, have high BaB, etc. costs some for of slots, and the slots come in different, non-exchangable, tiers, or slots.

So, everyone gets "level apporpriate powers"; except that some people use a staff, and others use a sword.

[TavishArtair]

Just have a chakra system of some sort where you load up magic in to each slot and depending on who you are you might load up some spells or you might load up a magic item. More spells makes you look like a wizard, more magic items makes you look like a basher, because you are.

[Judging__Eagle]

So.... 8 item system?

and PCs are pretty much classless arrangements that buy special abilities?

So, using a bow is something your character can do.

Wielding a spell book is how you get your ability to summon Evard's Black Tentacles, and Web.

[Mask_De_H]

Wait, wouldn't the simplest way to wean people off of the Martial power source be to just make them match up with the other sources? As in, just making it a tag, like [Fire] or [Awesome]? If it involves swording people in some way, it's martial.

If you're just stabbing a dude, it's [Martial].
If you're scraping your sword across the ground so fast it catches fire Makoto Shishio style, it's [Martial][Fire]
If you're running really fucking fast then it's [Martial][Supernatural][Movement]

That being said, it's all in how you flavor it innit? If you say that the hyper-movement power is Shunpo or Instant Transmission or Pedobear Chases the Frightened Loli technique then people will go "lolanime". If you just say that the guy is swift like the fucking forest then it'll be cool right? The place it starts breaking down is when you're ripping holes in dimensions, and then with phlebotinum you can bullshit anything. If a player balks at them being able to punch open a hole in space-time TTGL style, then give them a sword so sharp, that it rends the very essence of the universe.

[Lokathor]

I read a game at the store today called "Midnight". d20/SRD game, with heavy edits to the core stuff. One of the things was that it gave out spellcasting as a feat. Pick Int/Wis/Cha when you get the feat, and access to each school is based on additional feats. The "spellcaster" class just gets spell oriented bonus feats and spell related bonuses (cheaper learning, etc).

I think that something like the "spells go in your item/feat slots" concept would go far.

[Username17]

The DnD iconic trope of "magic is a technology that anyone can use" has got to go.

At this point there are two different, plausible, and completely incompatible plans on the table:

• Chakras: Every character gets slots and they can prepare magic powers into them. Wizards need tomes, orbs, or dragon shards to prepare the more powerful "spells" into their slots. Fighters need fire swords and shadow cloaks to prepare the more powerful "exploits" into their slots. Everyone is essentially a Wizard and has to buy or loot equipment to successfully use their high end magic.
• Transformation: Low level magic characters run around with magic that is unreliable and/or limited in scope and there are other characters who straight up don't have any magic. And they get to play the same game because the magic characters are still in the action-hero motif and haven't left the sword heroes in the dust. And when the magic PCs graduate to pulling epic shit, the sword heroes graduate into being angel knights and vampire lords that get enough magic stapled onto their warrior chassis that they can still compete in that environment.

There are obviously advantages and disadvantages to both. But they also seem to be pretty clearly different systems. Both systems, it is important to note, have a lot of traction. Just look at how popular crap like the Assassin is even though it's terrible.

-Username17

[Koumei]

That's just because the word "assassin" gives people erections, though, nothing to do with the class. Probably because it contains the word ass. Twice.