Cha: how to not make it a dump stat

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:27 am

Well, I like the idea of a "force of personality" stat, and having stuff like UMD key off of it, because that means you're literally forcing your will on the world to activate your wand of fireball, or be a warlock, or sorcerer, or whathaveyou...

but that means the stat should likely be called "willpower" or something, have Will Saves based off of it, and possibly arcane magic, for that matter, since usually arcane casters are the ones running around bending the universe over.... so Wis loses it's save...

hmm... my friend's home brew system's stats are making more sense now... Personality does the more logical part of Charisma, Senses is your perception stat, Intelligence sticks around... which leaves the question of what the hell does divine casting get based off of....

ok, let's start over.

Charisma is renamed Willpower. It represents your force of personality, and your actual personal charisma.
Arcane casting is now based off of Willpower.
Intelligence sticks around for skills mostly.
Will saves function off of your Willpower, so wisdom loses a purpose.
Wis is now solely used for divine casting and perception stuff... could Willpower conceivably be used for those? If so, I see no real reason to keep Wisdom as a stat....

I don't know, I'm rambling...

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:44 am

Strength - melee hit/damage, fort saves
Dexterity - ranged hit, initiative, armor class, reflex saves
Intelligence/Memory - skill points, languages
Perception/Wits - Spot, Listen, sense motive, (?)
Willpower - will saves, UMD

Wizards - AKA "Rules Lawyers", use Int to cast because they can remember all the strange backdoor rules of our broken to hell universe and demand that the right rules be invoked to get the effect desired.

Sorcerers - Don't give a shit about the universe, they just want what they want and shit gets done.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:17 am

Yeah Prak, my "Latent Magic" or aptly renamed "Soul" is used by some types of mage, but some other types do it by smarts and shit, whether that be Beguilers or Wizards.

Need both. And you sure as fuck can just give Perception to some other stat, because it seriously doesn't fucking need it's own in D&D. It's seriously three fucking skills, maybe four with sense motive, and has no effect outside of skills.

Hypothetically, if I were designing stats from scratch for D&D, ala D20 Iron:

Big: It's your lifting and your throwing shit, and it modifies fort and maybe HP. And AB/Damage with face punches.
Fast: It's your AC/Ref/to hit for some things/modifies speed (Yeah, you heard me, Fast 20 = 40ft, Fast 10=30 ft ect. Rounding somewhere.)
Smart: Some people cast off smartness, it also gives more skills.
Favored: Gods like you, sometimes shit sparkles when it's important, Will save, Perception, and Divine shit.
Magical: Your latent Magic. Some type of points you can spend for effects of sorts. Also keys UMD and some people casting.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:21 am

Strength - melee hit/damage, fort saves
Dexterity - ranged hit, initiative, armor class, reflex saves
Intelligence/Memory - skill points, languages
Perception/Wits - Spot, Listen, sense motive, (?)
Willpower - will saves, UMD

Oh snap! Wits is just a bonus to some skills in that breakdown. And what have we learned there?

Any attribute that just modifies some skills is bullshit, because there are other ways to modify skills.
Any attribute that doesn't modify any skills is bullshit, because there is no discernible flavor to having or not having a good bonus in that attribute.

Or to put it another way: D&D Wisdom is not two attributes worth of awesome. Frankly... it's already practically a dump stat for people who don't cast with it. For people who are guaranteed a good Will Save and don't get Perception skills (like wizards) it totally is a dump stat.

-Username17

God_of_Awesome · Post by **God_of_Awesome** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:23 am

So, will this fuck up backwards compatability?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:28 am

probably a bit, but really only as much as you allow it I'd think... it's seriously maybe a paragraph house rule at best.

God_of_Awesome · Post by **God_of_Awesome** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:38 am

Well, we could write-up instructions for conversion.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:42 am

God_of_Awesome wrote:Well, we could write-up instructions for conversion.

That's what I mean.

"Willpower is force of personality. Perception based skills trigger off of [insert stat, probably Int or Will]. Will saves use Willpower" etc.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:50 am

Kaelik wrote:Big: It's your lifting and your throwing shit, and it modifies fort and maybe HP. And AB/Damage with face punches.
Fast: It's your AC/Ref/to hit for some things/modifies speed (Yeah, you heard me, Fast 20 = 40ft, Fast 10=30 ft ect. Rounding somewhere.)
Smart: Some people cast off smartness, it also gives more skills.
Favored: Gods like you, sometimes shit sparkles when it's important, Will save, Perception, and Divine shit.
Magical: Your latent Magic. Some type of points you can spend for effects of sorts. Also keys UMD and some people casting.

I could get behind that. I could even see different Leadership feats triggering off of different stats. Tyrant trades off Bigness, while Inspiring trades from Favoredness. Skills can be easily hacked up into these branches. Conning people comes off of Smartness, for example.

Seems like it could be pretty solid. Magic types need two stats. Wizards need Smartness and Magicalness. Paladins need Favoredness and Bigness. Sorcerers need Magicalness and Favoredness. And Bards need Magicalness and Fastness.

-Username17

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:55 am

Alternately, for a five-stat lineup (closer to current D&D):

Strength: Melee to-hit, Damage Fortitude Saves
Dexterity: Ranged to-hit, AC, Reflex saves
Intelligence: Skill Points, Languages
Wisdom: Perception skills, Initiative
Willpower: CHA skills, Will saves

Magic gets divided with wizardry going to int, divine magic going to wis, and everything else going to wil.

Wisdom could be renamed to something like Awareness or Serenity (thinking martial artist images here) or something.

Maybe add a feat in that lets you attach initiative back to dexterity. Maybe.

I like the Big/Fast/Smart/Favored/Magic lineup for a new system, though.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:59 am

Big, Fast: Champion
Big, Smart: Warlord
Big, Favored: Paladin
Big, Magical: Hero

Fast, Smart: Gadgeteer
Fast, Favored: King
Fast, Magical: Bard

Smart, Favored: Oracle
Smart, Magical: Wizard

Favored, Magical: Sorcerer

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:02 am

Or, for a classical twist:

Courage: resisting fear, leading men into battle, attacking with weapons, fighting other men
Prudence: resisting bluffs, devising strategies, dodging weapons, fighting monsters
Moderation: "divine" magic
Fortitude: "arcane" magic

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:07 am

Orion wrote:Or, for a classical twist:

Courage: resisting fear, leading men into battle, attacking with weapons, fighting other men
Prudence: resisting bluffs, devising strategies, dodging weapons, fighting monsters
Moderation: "divine" magic
Fortitude: "arcane" magic

Would be interesting for a system based in the seven classical virtues. Though in my opinion it begs for evil to have renamed abilities...

Wrath instead of Courage
Vanity instead of Prudence?
Gluttony instead of Moderation?(or Lust, with evil clerics "consorting" with demons for magic)
Pride instead of Fortitude?

hmm... that's all I can think right now, and it's kind of a shitty idea anyway... meh

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:07 am

FrankTrollman wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Big: It's your lifting and your throwing shit, and it modifies fort and maybe HP. And AB/Damage with face punches.
Fast: It's your AC/Ref/to hit for some things/modifies speed (Yeah, you heard me, Fast 20 = 40ft, Fast 10=30 ft ect. Rounding somewhere.)
Smart: Some people cast off smartness, it also gives more skills.
Favored: Gods like you, sometimes shit sparkles when it's important, Will save, Perception, and Divine shit.
Magical: Your latent Magic. Some type of points you can spend for effects of sorts. Also keys UMD and some people casting.
I could get behind that. I could even see different Leadership feats triggering off of different stats. Tyrant trades off Bigness, while Inspiring trades from Favoredness. Skills can be easily hacked up into these branches. Conning people comes off of Smartness, for example.

Seems like it could be pretty solid. Magic types need two stats. Wizards need Smartness and Magicalness. Paladins need Favoredness and Bigness. Sorcerers need Magicalness and Favoredness. And Bards need Magicalness and Fastness.

-Username17

Yeah, in fact. I officially declare that my D20 Iron stats set up, and embrace the 2 main stats per class model. Now to figure out how to make the two main stats model not suck.

Now I need to go back to the drawing board and compare those stats with the Races write up, and see if I can generate arrays that makes sense.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:00 am

Prak,

There are no opposites to the Platonic virtues. Or if there were, there would be two opposites to each, like Aristotelian virtues.

(the opposite of Courage is Cowardice AND foolhardiness)

The Platonic virtues don't need evil versions because the Athenian says that virtues make an evil man worse, not better.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:22 am

Orion wrote:Prak,

There are no opposites to the Platonic virtues. Or if there were, there would be two opposites to each, like Aristotelian virtues.

(the opposite of Courage is Cowardice AND foolhardiness)

The Platonic virtues don't need evil versions because the Athenian says that virtues make an evil man worse, not better.

Sorry, my mind went off on Heavenly Virtues/Deadly sins...

nevermind, like I said, stupid idea anyway.