[BUILD ADVICE] Planar Shepherd
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[BUILD ADVICE] Planar Shepherd
I was allowed to play a druid in my friend's upcoming vanilla 3.5 campaign, and I was also allowed to take Planar Shepherd. (He doesn't know any better, though I have no doubt I will school him well.) (I think we're running Savage Tide at least as an opener until he has a chance to flesh out his own world some more, so building to that adventure alone is folly - he's also stated that we're going to be facing a myriad of enemies [a "well-rounded" campaign]).
That being said, I looked over the class again and while I can imagine the abuse potential, none immediately spring to mind (I was never very good at game balance analysis or breaking things).
How do you like to break your game with Planar Shepherd? (Wish is allowed but the DM may be a dick about it.) Also, the game starts at second level so I have some time before it ramps up to crazy town - and no guarantee that we will ever finish up at crazy high levels.
Thoughts? Build suggestions?
That being said, I looked over the class again and while I can imagine the abuse potential, none immediately spring to mind (I was never very good at game balance analysis or breaking things).
How do you like to break your game with Planar Shepherd? (Wish is allowed but the DM may be a dick about it.) Also, the game starts at second level so I have some time before it ramps up to crazy town - and no guarantee that we will ever finish up at crazy high levels.
Thoughts? Build suggestions?
<something clever>
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- Knight-Baron
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There are three distinct ways to break the game with Planar Shepherd:
1) Abuse the "gaining SLAs" ability. Turn into Efreet for wishes, or just turn into one of the celestials/fiends that have a boatload of potent SLAs.
2) Abuse the "can turn into creatures with templates" ability, for instance, turning into a Paragon Fiendish animal with as many other templates as you can fit.
3) Abuse the "Immune to plane traits / Planar Bubble" abilities with a fast or slow time plane to get 50x the actions of your foes.
Also, even without actually breaking the game, it's still a straight power-up with no downside for a class that's arguably the strongest already.
1) Abuse the "gaining SLAs" ability. Turn into Efreet for wishes, or just turn into one of the celestials/fiends that have a boatload of potent SLAs.
2) Abuse the "can turn into creatures with templates" ability, for instance, turning into a Paragon Fiendish animal with as many other templates as you can fit.
3) Abuse the "Immune to plane traits / Planar Bubble" abilities with a fast or slow time plane to get 50x the actions of your foes.
Also, even without actually breaking the game, it's still a straight power-up with no downside for a class that's arguably the strongest already.
Last edited by Ice9 on Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:31 am, edited 5 times in total.
Yeah, I was looking at Fernia for the Efreet/Pit Fiend/Balor/moar awesome shapeshifting, or Dal Quor for the 10x time rate.
What planes do people favor? (and the DM is flexible, so almost anything that has at least been described somewhere is fair game - making my own plane if not.)
EDIT: Remind me how a wish loop with yourself as the Efreet works? Don't they apply only to "non-genies"?
What planes do people favor? (and the DM is flexible, so almost anything that has at least been described somewhere is fair game - making my own plane if not.)
EDIT: Remind me how a wish loop with yourself as the Efreet works? Don't they apply only to "non-genies"?
Last edited by Aktariel on Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
<something clever>
You grant three wishes to one of your minions. Or buddies. Or whatever. As long as you have someone you can trust who isn't a genie, you're golden.Aktariel wrote:EDIT: Remind me how a wish loop with yourself as the Efreet works? Don't they apply only to "non-genies"?
To loop it, I guess you'd bring in another Efreeti with one of the wishes.
"No, you can't burn the inn down. It's made of solid fire."
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The 3.5 wish allows you to explicitly create magic items of any cost. Even Epic Magic items, so long as they are not "uncosted" artifacts. The only caveat is that the XP Cost of the wish is higher the more powerful a magic item you create. An efreet does not have to pay the XP Costs no matter how high or low they are.
So if you become an Efreet, you can in three standard actions create three +40 magic items. Epic crap is Core now. If taking several days to make all your shit seems like it would take too long, you can use one of the wishes to make a staff of wishes - that's Core too.
-Username17
So if you become an Efreet, you can in three standard actions create three +40 magic items. Epic crap is Core now. If taking several days to make all your shit seems like it would take too long, you can use one of the wishes to make a staff of wishes - that's Core too.
-Username17
Oh damn. That's hot. I think my DM would try to pimp slap me for that, though.
Dal Quor with the time difference seems like it might be more acceptable... even though it would still fuck shit up hardcore.
That's how you get a wish economy started though, right? Pool your money and get a candle of invocation, and then summon an Efreet to give you a wish, which you use to wish for a staff of wishes. Which you can then use to get a ring of infinite wishes. Or even skip the step, and just get the ring. (I seem to recall that's how the Wish got his mojo on).
Dal Quor with the time difference seems like it might be more acceptable... even though it would still fuck shit up hardcore.
That's how you get a wish economy started though, right? Pool your money and get a candle of invocation, and then summon an Efreet to give you a wish, which you use to wish for a staff of wishes. Which you can then use to get a ring of infinite wishes. Or even skip the step, and just get the ring. (I seem to recall that's how the Wish got his mojo on).
Last edited by Aktariel on Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
<something clever>
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- Invincible Overlord
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Look, asking for an honest use of the Planar Shepard is like asking for a Spelldancer loop that won't break the game.
If you're going to cheese, then cheese, but don't try to do it while gaslighting them towards something 'not that bad'.
If you're going to cheese, then cheese, but don't try to do it while gaslighting them towards something 'not that bad'.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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The "Wish Economy" assumes for the moment that you are using the "less broken" version of wish from the original 3e PHB before Andy Collins drove it off a cliff in the 3.5 revisions. That one is capped at a 15,000 gp value. But if you're just trying to be The Wish and The Word, then yes it's LE Candle of Invocation -> Efreet -> Staff of Wishes -> Win D&D. You can do it at first level if you can make the DC 25 Knowledge Planes check to dumpster dive for Pazuzu and the free magic item you can get that way.Aktariel wrote:Oh damn. That's hot. I think my DM would try to pimp slap me for that, though.
Dal Quor with the time difference seems like it might be more acceptable... even though it would still fuck shit up hardcore.
That's how you get a wish economy started though, right? Pool your money and get a candle of invocation, and then summon an Efreet to give you a wish, which you use to wish for a staff of wishes. Which you can then use to get a ring of infinite wishes. Or even skip the step, and just get the ring. (I seem to recall that's how the Wish got his mojo on).
Pretty much. Planar Shepperd is a PrC whose merest existence is an affront to game balance and good sense. It's one of those things like the 3.5 revisions of wish and shapechange that are so obviously broken that you wonder with open mouthed confusion how they could ever have been printed.Lago wrote:Look, asking for an honest use of the Planar Shepard is like asking for a Spelldancer loop that won't break the game.
If you're going to cheese, then cheese, but don't try to do it while gaslighting them towards something 'not that bad'.
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- Psychic Robot
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Words to live by. And yeah, don't do stuff that you know is just going to screw up the campaign.Psychic Robot wrote:Don't be a dick.though I have no doubt I will school him well
Last edited by Sunwitch on Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Knight-Baron
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What follows is the true discussion of how Planar Shepherds were created:
*looking at druids* "you know what these guys need? More Awesome"
"Yea, they don't get enough splat book love"
"well, what you you want if you were a Druid"
"I dunno, to turn into Dragons?"
"There's a feat for that already"
"Yea, but I want to be a Hell Dragon - that's with a template!"
"Okay, why don't we add that"
"what about my animal companion, it should keep getting better"
"Okay, why don't we add that"
"I want him to be a Planar Druid"
"okay, so he won't get hurt by planes and stuff"
"and he should shapeshift into planar things!"
"Okay, we add that"
"And he should be able to add planar stuff to whatever plane he is on"
"Okay, we add that"
Seriously, you lose the ability to transform into plant monsters, and venom immunity to get these things. It does not resemble balance.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... d_Handbook
Dal Quor - The Region of Dreams - 10 rounds of combat for every one that everyone else gets. Also, you can fly.
Even something as generally awesome as "I want to be a fire druid" is amazingly good - All fire spells are enlarged and maximized, immune to fire, cold supression, and the ability to use at will (Maximized, Enlarged) Fireball as a Firre is pretty crazy-good. I mean, what would you think if someone had a 5 level PrC that gave unlimitted Maximized Enlarged Fireballs after a few levels, with an animal companion and full casting? Tome gives this to a Conduit of the Lower Planes at level 6 (IRCC) as essentially their only ability.
*looking at druids* "you know what these guys need? More Awesome"
"Yea, they don't get enough splat book love"
"well, what you you want if you were a Druid"
"I dunno, to turn into Dragons?"
"There's a feat for that already"
"Yea, but I want to be a Hell Dragon - that's with a template!"
"Okay, why don't we add that"
"what about my animal companion, it should keep getting better"
"Okay, why don't we add that"
"I want him to be a Planar Druid"
"okay, so he won't get hurt by planes and stuff"
"and he should shapeshift into planar things!"
"Okay, we add that"
"And he should be able to add planar stuff to whatever plane he is on"
"Okay, we add that"
Seriously, you lose the ability to transform into plant monsters, and venom immunity to get these things. It does not resemble balance.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... d_Handbook
Dal Quor - The Region of Dreams - 10 rounds of combat for every one that everyone else gets. Also, you can fly.
Even something as generally awesome as "I want to be a fire druid" is amazingly good - All fire spells are enlarged and maximized, immune to fire, cold supression, and the ability to use at will (Maximized, Enlarged) Fireball as a Firre is pretty crazy-good. I mean, what would you think if someone had a 5 level PrC that gave unlimitted Maximized Enlarged Fireballs after a few levels, with an animal companion and full casting? Tome gives this to a Conduit of the Lower Planes at level 6 (IRCC) as essentially their only ability.
- NineInchNall
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You actually don't lose the ability to turn into plants, 'cause enhance wildshape is a spell that all Druids get.
I've been wanting to play a Planar Shepherd for a long time now. Mostly to turn into eladrins and be all Platonic Elf all over the place.
I've been wanting to play a Planar Shepherd for a long time now. Mostly to turn into eladrins and be all Platonic Elf all over the place.
Last edited by NineInchNall on Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Too late. I think I was born that way.Psychic Robot wrote: Don't be a dick.
It was not meant as "be a dick to the DM" it was "show him the true power of the Force."
Also, thanks for everyone's help so far.
What animal companions would you recommend? Riding Dog to start with, pretty obviously, but beyond that...?
Also, are there any +2 Wis LA 0 races aside from the Tome Aasimar?
Last edited by Aktariel on Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
<something clever>
- NineInchNall
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Anthropomorphic Bat or Toad. Jermlaine.
EDIT: Those are technically Wis +6, though, so they may not be what you want.
EDIT: Those are technically Wis +6, though, so they may not be what you want.
Last edited by NineInchNall on Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
I mean, sure. I was ideally shooting for something reasonably humanoid... and while the Jermlaine sort of is, it's fvcking ugly. Yes, I have a pro prettiness bias.
What spells should I be looking at? I know sorc/wiz pretty well, but druid not so much. Time to start splatbook diving, I guess.
What spells should I be looking at? I know sorc/wiz pretty well, but druid not so much. Time to start splatbook diving, I guess.
<something clever>
What levels?Aktariel wrote:I mean, sure. I was ideally shooting for something reasonably humanoid... and while the Jermlaine sort of is, it's fvcking ugly. Yes, I have a pro prettiness bias.
What spells should I be looking at? I know sorc/wiz pretty well, but druid not so much. Time to start splatbook diving, I guess.
Kelpstrand's pretty awesome at level 2. You should ideally take advantage of Druid no SR Ref based lockdowns at high levels. Since most people don't get those.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Good Core druid spells:
All levels: Summon Nature's Ally. It's a buffed summon, combine with other summon buffers for a super buffed summon. Then go nuts.
1st: Entangle 40 ft radius reflex save or lose with negative effects even on a save and min/level duration. Quite possibly the best first level spell. You could seriously run around with just this and heightened versions of this.
2nd: Summon Swarm: Looks kinda underwhelming, but it can be used as a damage engine with Entangle/Solid Fog/Wall of Thorns etc. and you would be surprised how much just can't counter it.
Now a huge jump
5th
Wall of thorns: Magic wall of arbitrarium almost nothing can get through in a reasonable amount of time. Frank's choice
Control winds: You can control the wind for 10/min a level and for a radius of 40 feet a level. Controlling the wind includes making everything a tornado. You can cast this and then destroy whole armies by just walking by them. Seriously, cast this and everything within 360 feet of you that's large or smaller has to make a DC 30 save or take or take 6d6 damage per round for 1d10 rounds. If they somehow survive the tornado can pick them up again. Oh yeah, you are also immune to range attacks. This spell is completely goddamn crazy and I don't know why people don't talk about it more. My choice.
All levels: Summon Nature's Ally. It's a buffed summon, combine with other summon buffers for a super buffed summon. Then go nuts.
1st: Entangle 40 ft radius reflex save or lose with negative effects even on a save and min/level duration. Quite possibly the best first level spell. You could seriously run around with just this and heightened versions of this.
2nd: Summon Swarm: Looks kinda underwhelming, but it can be used as a damage engine with Entangle/Solid Fog/Wall of Thorns etc. and you would be surprised how much just can't counter it.
Now a huge jump
5th
Wall of thorns: Magic wall of arbitrarium almost nothing can get through in a reasonable amount of time. Frank's choice
Control winds: You can control the wind for 10/min a level and for a radius of 40 feet a level. Controlling the wind includes making everything a tornado. You can cast this and then destroy whole armies by just walking by them. Seriously, cast this and everything within 360 feet of you that's large or smaller has to make a DC 30 save or take or take 6d6 damage per round for 1d10 rounds. If they somehow survive the tornado can pick them up again. Oh yeah, you are also immune to range attacks. This spell is completely goddamn crazy and I don't know why people don't talk about it more. My choice.
Last edited by shau on Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
The real crazy stuff doesn't kick in until you have caster level 15 since that is when you get the DC 30 tornado. It is sort of unclear whether the fortitude negates listed in the spell description is your normal spell DC, or the natural environmental spell DC. That and also that most folk don't like looking up environmental effects to figure out what their spell does, I think that is a large factor for why that spell slips under the radar. By the time you get that tornado though, your range is 600' with a 600' area.shau wrote: Control winds: You can control the wind for 10/min a level and for a radius of 40 feet a level. Controlling the wind includes making everything a tornado. You can cast this and then destroy whole armies by just walking by them. Seriously, cast this and everything within 360 feet of you that's large or smaller has to make a DC 30 save or take or take 6d6 damage per round for 1d10 rounds. If they somehow survive the tornado can pick them up again. Oh yeah, you are also immune to range attacks. This spell is completely goddamn crazy and I don't know why people don't talk about it more. My choice.
Even at lower levels it functions as a mass knockdown ability in addition to being ranged attack proof. Definitely is nice.
- NineInchNall
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More Favorite Spells:
Yep, Frostburn is pretty much the book of Druid powuh.
And kelpstrand is totally the shit. Don't ignore venomfire, either.
- 2. blood snow
- 2. numbing sphere
- 3. column of ice
- 4. boreal wind
- 5. call avalanche
- 6. entomb
- 7. whiteout
- 8. frostfell
Yep, Frostburn is pretty much the book of Druid powuh.
And kelpstrand is totally the shit. Don't ignore venomfire, either.
Last edited by NineInchNall on Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
- Judging__Eagle
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use the 2e version, it's less ugly:Aktariel wrote:I mean, sure. I was ideally shooting for something reasonably humanoid... and while the Jermlaine sort of is, it's fvcking ugly. Yes, I have a pro prettiness bias.
What spells should I be looking at? I know sorc/wiz pretty well, but druid not so much. Time to start splatbook diving, I guess.
http://www.dotd.com/mm/MM00148.htm
honestly... I look at a 2e book everytime that I want to use something. 3e seems to have missed so many things.
also, I tend to pick and choose the art.
2e Kenku's have a better write up in terms of fluff and how they act; but MM3 Kenkus actually look un-retarded.
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While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.