Magic: the Gathering: the RPG

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Cielingcat
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Magic: the Gathering: the RPG

Post by Cielingcat »

So I've been thinking about writing a Magic rpg for a long time, and I finally decided to sit down and write something. My goal is to have a system where Mana determines your ability to cast spells, while your attributes, skills, and talents determine everything else you can do. Any 2 X mana characters should be equal, as mana stands for level; a 2 mana character may well be a Soldier, a Wizard, or an Assassin, but no matter how he builds his character he has 2 dots of mana of any 2 colors, and can cast 2 mana worth of spells per turn.

What I'm having trouble with is how exactly to go about the basics of character creation and conflict resolution. How should I differentiate a Soldier from a Wizard, or whatever the player might want to be? How do I balance the choices so that a 2 mana spell to boost your physical stature is equal to one to drain away someone's life force?

Note that I want to base this more on the fluff of the game than the game itself; inspiration should be things like the Urza saga, rather than the cards.

The setting itself would be some plane in the Multiverse sometime after the Phyrexian invasion of Dominaria. Estranged Phyrexian monstrosities roam the planes after the destruction of their home, and the fallout of the Apocalypse is still settling. The plane that the game takes place on was sheltered from most of it by distance, but planes-hopping beasts and strange temporal rifts still plague it as a result of the huge energies released during that event.

Think of the setting as Ice Age, only without the ice, and on a different world.

Here's what I wrote so far.
In Magic: the Gathering, a character's true power comes from one basic number: their Mana. A character's mana is equal to their level, and in fact is their level. A 5 mana character is equivalent to a level 5 character, and the two terms may be used interchangeably. A 5 mana character has 5 mana per turn to spend on spells. Mana comes in five colors: Black, Blue, Green, Red, and White. Each point of mana must be spent to purchase one of these five types of mana, and a character's color is determined by whichever colors of mana they have. A 3 mana character who purchases 3 Blue mana is Blue, while one who purchases 2 Blue and one Black is both Black and Blue, and may be targeted by spells that effect either color.

Each color has 2 allied colors and 2 enemy colors. This does not affect a character's ability to purchase mana of different colors, but creatures embodying enemy colors are rare, and many spells from enemy colors specifically target each other. For example, Black magic is especially good at killing White and Green creatures, and Blue magic is good at disrupting Red.

Black is the color of death, decay, despair, greed, corruption, selfishness, and most every dark urge in the human psyche. Black mana is corrupting, and in its pure form causes rot and decay in everything it touches. Black is the color of undead and of demons, and specializes in spells that drain life, destroy minds, damage souls, create the dead, and various other unpleasant activities. Black mages are often evil, though they are not necessarily so-the corrupting influence of the magic they wield, though, makes it difficult to remain a good person while using primarily Black mana. Supplementing it with other colors, however, makes it significantly easier to keep oneself free of corruption. Black magic is opposed to White and Green magic, and works well with Red and Blue. Black magic is drawn from swamps and other places of decay.

Blue is the color of thought, patience, knowledge, progress, and planning. Blue mana is calming in small doses, but continued exposure can bring about madness and an all consuming desire for knowledge. Blue is the color of traditional magic, and indeed, its core constituency is made up of wizards, rather than any special creatures, like undead or demons for Black. That said, the capricious Fey creatures are either completely or partially Blue, and many summoned or created creatures are as well. Blue magic manipulates the workings of magic, minds, and time itself. Blue magic is the most closely connected with the science of artifice, and many Blue spells manipulate or help create artifacts. Blue magic is opposed to Green and Red magic, and works well with Black and White. Blue magic is drawn from islands and other places that represent a place of calm in the middle of activity.

Green is the color of nature, instinct, and growth. Like Blue magic, Green can be calming, but unlike Blue, continued exposure to it breaks down a creature's higher mental capabilities, eventually reducing them to base instinct. Green is the color of animals, plants, and specializes in the control of natural creatures, inducing growth, and general mastery over nature. Green mages are often referred to as Druids, though not all Green mages are such. Green magic is opposed to Black and Blue magic, and works well with White and Red. Green magic is drawn from forests and other places of nature's supremacy.

Red is the color of passion, anger, rage, fury, fire, and setting things on fire. Red magic is angry, short sighted, and powerful, and its users channel their passion and fury to empower it. Red is the color of the various goblinoid races, of war, and fire, and specializes in breaking things. Red is also the color most likely to summon and control elementals, as creatures of pure fire or lightning are easy to call, and their destructive power can be directed at things simply by facing them in the proper direction. Red magic is opposed to Blue and White magic, and works well with Black and Green. Red magic is drawn from volcanoes, storms, and other places of broiling heat and unrest.

White is the color of peace, justice, wrath, vengeance, honor, and civilization. White represents community and collectives, and is the color of angels. White is not necessarily good; while many good things are represented in White, it is also the color of vengeance, mercilessness, and uncompromising fanaticism. White magic specializes in banishment, pacification, and broad, indiscriminate annihilation. White mages often worship some other being as a focal point for their powers, though rarely does a higher being actually grant any White magic-it is in fact far more common for Black mages to receive power from something greater than they. White magic is opposed to Black and Red, and works well with Blue and Green. White magic is drawn from plains, shrines, and other places of calmness.
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Post by Kaelik »

One thing, Make mana like actions.

IE, If you are a wizard, you can totally summon either a 5/5 that costs 6 mana or six 1/1 creatures for one mana each.
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Post by Cielingcat »

I was thinking of doing that, where a turn would simply be "however long it takes you to spend your allotted mana." I don't know how to work stabbing someone in the face into that, though, and I want "dude who turns into bears and pumps mana into himself" to be a viable archetype. Maybe you get a Spell action, where you cast your mana in spells, and other actions, where one of those might be an Attack action?
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Post by Orion »

Just make sword attacks have a mana cost. Low-level regular "stab a dude" attacks justify the cost by saying that the distraction of fighting hinders your mana channeling, while higher-level sword attacks should light people on fire or drain their souls...
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Post by Cielingcat »

That could work. So a basic attack could cost, say, 1 colorless mana. Each color could have its own basic attack as well, and pumping more mana into it would boost the effects.

So if you put B into an attack, you get an attack that inflicts rot or whatever. If you pump BBB into it, you might be able to wither away the person's soul when you hit him.

Or hell, you could simply have "melee attack" be part of casting some spells. Like if you want to cast Lava Axe you throw down some red mana and make a ranged or melee attack wherein you throw an axe made of lava at your target. But, say, Obliterate only involves you pumping in a bunch of red mana and then blowing up a continent (and yourself).

So if you want to be a normal swordsman, you can do that at level 1. Then at level 2 you have to step up your game and start casting spells, but you're fully within your rights to only select melee abilities and melee-synergistic abilities like Giant Growth (which makes you fuckhueg and then you can make a normal attack with your new hugeness). Or maybe you want to be Kamahl and you learn Lightning Bolt and Haste.
Last edited by Cielingcat on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Honestly I wouldn't really have any normal swordsmen. This is an MtG game and pretty much the movers and shakers are supposed to be casters.

I'd set it up where your magic items (artifacts) have to get activated by you paying their casting cost in mana, then afterwards they do something. Similar to how you'd use them in actual magic. So you may be carrying around the rod of ruin, but you'd have to actually activate it before you can use it in any given battle.

Attacks would just be a form of direct damage or an activated ability of an artifact weapon. Instead of tossing a lightning bolt you hit them with a sword.
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Post by Cielingcat »

I was planning on going that route. "Has an artifact" isn't anyone's class features, it's just something you get in the game or build yourself, but you can't use it unless you pay for it each round. So if you have the Rod of Ruin you pay like, 1 mana of any color, and you get to Ruin some fucker's face. But having the rod is just like learning an extra spell.

Only issue about normal swordsmen is that the rules have to support there being normal swordsmen, even if they don't make them playable. And I have no issues with level 1 characters being able to be normal swordsmen as long as they stop being such at level 2.
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Post by Orion »

And of course level 1 PCs presumably have access to colored mana and can do better than "basic attack" even at level 1. Though if they didn't bother to LEARN a melee spell, "sword attack" might be their best option when Sleep and Charm have failed.
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Post by Username17 »

The game where you play planewalkers and spend six mana on summoning a Mahmoutti Djinn is not the same game as the one where you are third level and play a Prodigal Sorcerer. You need to decide up front which one you are doing and go with it. Armageddon is a viable action in the first game, and being an individual orc or Black Knight is a viable life choice in the second.

But the two do not play together. Like, at all. Magic really ha the two settings, the one where the players are playing cards and the one in which dudes on the cards are marching around and fighting each other.

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Post by Cielingcat »

I'm fully aware of that. However, there have been, in Magic's history, mortal mages capable of casting spells that can shatter continents-by which I mean Barrin did it using, I think, the same spell that was built into the Sylex that Urza used.

I don't think I really need to write rules for the Obliterate spell though, and I used it as a silly example.

The intent is for the game to be the one where you play a Prodigal Sorcerer who travels the world righting wrongs and wronging rights. The only planeswalkers will be equivalent to D&D's gods, only they don't grants spells or any of that bullshit. Usually.



That said, I'm not sure what sort of attribute system I want to use. Every playable character is going to be an Adventurer and the majority of their power is going to come from the spells they select, but people are still going to want to be able to to distinguish between their frail sorcerer and their mighty barbarian-even if both of them cast Lightning Bolt as their main attack.
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Post by MGuy »

I'm doing something similar with something that I'm righting up. Similar in the way that anyone can cast spells. I would just suggest that you divide up the classes along other lines. How they cast spells, the amount, their ability to alter the magic's effects, etc.

In this case (since you're using the colors) you can just divide it along the lines of magic sources. In MAGIC the spells already do things significantly different from one another. So people's barbarians used red magic and have red themed spells that alter their ferociousness, ability to wage war and the like and you can have your blue mages with magic that controls or hinders.
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Post by Red_Rob »

I always thought MTG's colour breakdown for spells was a lot more flavourful than DnD's Schools. They have a nice mix of effects, a lot of mythic resonance and a nice rivalry/ally system.

If i was going to re-write DnD's spell system so that wizards couldn't do any effect the designers could think of as a standard action, I'd probably use a system something like the colours and give mages access to, say, 2 of them. That way mages would still be able to pull off world-shattering powers, just not all the world shattering powers.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

I always thought MTG's colour breakdown for spells was a lot more flavourful than DnD's Schools.
I call bullshit. I really don't see the difference between

"all the broken spells are on the wizard list"

and

"all the broken cards are blue"
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Post by Username17 »

Yeah the most degenerate card ever printed (or that can be printed) is Timewalk. It's Blue. All the other broken cards that exist in a metastate where they have a card cost that is less than 1 card are also Blue. Ancestral Recall, Bringeyser, what-fucking ever. Even when they limited things to one card a piece, Lob Quad decks still just cast Timetwister and Timewalk every turn to never allow their enemy a turn. And that is functionally the same as "Wizards have a bunch of broken shit on their list."

That being said, if you want to make the character be a Hurloon Minotaur or a Prodigal Sorcerer, you're tasking yourself with writing a bunch of abilities that operate on a scale much finer than anything in M:tG. The Magic rules don't give a fuckity fuck about how many arrows are being fired here or there or whether an individual orc is slashing with his sword or attempting to shove an enemy dwarf off a cliff. But if you're playing an individual Llanowar Elf or Ironcla Orc, that kind of resolution is super important.

Off hand, the way I would do things would be to give people packages of maneuvers that cost mana. And then give them the ability to keep taking actions until those actions run out. And those actions don't really scale. Your zero-colorless mana "basic strike" is pretty much the same deal if you're a mana badass as if you're a 1 mana Hero of Benal. You'd only use it if you needed 5 attacks for some reason (CoP or Simulacrums, for example). Against a level appropriate foe you'd want to use an attack that cost a lot more mana and was a lot more kick ass (Meteor Smash or Disintegrate or whatever).

So being an Orc or a Warlord or a Shaman gives you a bunch of maneuvers that cost various amounts of mana. And if you don't have enough mana to use some of them (which at low level you won't), you just can't use them unless you get some temporary mana from somewhere. The key concept is that the spell that lets you do minor unblockable damage to an enemy you can't even see is off the Sorcerer list and it costs 1UU. The Bull Rush is off the Warlord list and it does major damage and hurls a target away from you and costs 1RR.

The Warlord list can also have some things that cost Black, Green, or even White mana. So if you multiclass your mana you automagically unlock special moves even as you give up single-class moves until you get much higher level.

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Post by Red_Rob »

Josh_Kablack wrote:
I always thought MTG's colour breakdown for spells was a lot more flavourful than DnD's Schools.
I call bullshit. I really don't see the difference between

"all the broken spells are on the wizard list"

and

"all the broken cards are blue"
Flavourful was the word. And I do think that for example Black Magic, with its connotations of death, greed, demons, bargaining with your soul etc. is a lot easier to visualize than "evocation magic".

I mean, ask me to come up with a new spell for the Black magic school or the Evocation school and i know which I'll have more ideas for.

And anyway, with all the nerfs Blue has had recently and the creature power level WOTC has been pushing since Invasion, I would say the correct statement is "all the broken cards were blue"
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Post by Cielingcat »

I'm debating whether I want to have classes at all. Do I want 5 different lists separated only by color, and anyone can choose any spell they're able to cast, or do I want specific Soldier and Wizard lists, where you get the whole list/part of the list and you can cast any spell from those lists that you have enough mana to cast?

Personally, I think I'm more attached to the first one.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Red_Rob wrote:
Flavourful was the word. And I do think that for example Black Magic, with its connotations of death, greed, demons, bargaining with your soul etc. is a lot easier to visualize than "evocation magic".
And BULLSHIT was my response.

Lemme spell out those flavors for you:

Black Mages have magic about death and demons and darkness.
Red Mages have magic about fire and earth and passion and orcs and dragons.
Green Mages have magic about growth and plants and animals and faeries.
White Mages have magic about justice and healing and protection and angels.
and Blue Mages have magic about magic.

Thus it is impossible to come up with any spell which is out-of-concept for blue and blue has no limitations on its scope. And that is a serious balance issue at the conceptual level - well before we even get to the game design / card effects level.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Josh_Kablack wrote: and Blue Mages have magic about magic.

Thus it is impossible to come up with any spell which is out-of-concept for blue and blue has no limitations on its scope. And that is a serious balance issue at the conceptual level - well before we even get to the game design / card effects level.
Well no, blue is more like metamagic rather than magic in general.

Honestly it's pretty much like: water creatures, metamagic, illusions.

I don't feel like that's necessarily broken conceptually.
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Post by Doom »

Blue would definitely need to be toned down a bit.

'Counterspell', for example, is simply too meta-uber, as long as blue could do anything even remotely like each of the other colors, even at a huge disadvantage, Counterspell puts it fundamentally ahead of all other colors.

M:TG mostly gets around this by mana requirements; the game always snaps in half when viable mana workarounds exist. I doubt an RPG could avoid that trap.
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Post by Cielingcat »

The resource limit in this rpg is mana; you have a certain amount of it to spend per turn, and spending it is your actions. You turn ends when you declare it over or when you run out of mana (and move actions or whatever, I don't know). So if you wanna hold 2 mana to use a counterspell, you have a huge advantage against a single monster because you have 1-3 allies and the monster doesn't. But in the end you, personally, have used up what is probably going to be one third of your mana at least to stop a single spell.

The game probably ends at like 8 mana explicitly, because very few cards go above that and it just seems a good number.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Doom314 wrote:Blue would definitely need to be toned down a bit.

'Counterspell', for example, is simply too meta-uber, as long as blue could do anything even remotely like each of the other colors, even at a huge disadvantage, Counterspell puts it fundamentally ahead of all other colors.
Well counterspell is rather easily dealt with in this RPG by having non spell attacks. If you're playing a white knight or a shivan dragon, you don't even care about counterspells because you're stabbing people and breathing fire.

Also, I'd say this RPG should definitely use at least some kind of WoF system or maybe even an actual card power system to randomize people's powers and give it a M:tG feel. It would also prevent someone from just spamming counterspells.
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Post by Username17 »

You need to stop calling the actions people take "spells." Do not pass go.

Calling actions "spells" implies that actions are equivalent to magic cards. But you're having the entire character be roughly equivalent to a magic card. A 4 mana action can't be "Summon Stone Giant" because a 4 mana character (who can take a 4 mana action each turn) is a Stone Giant.

Before you can proceed at all, you need to fix your terminology so it gets back on track and implies that a player character White Knight can do, well, anything.

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Post by Cielingcat »

I can see how that would be a problem. What alternative would you suggest?
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Post by Anguirus »

In addition to gaining mana and actions (spells?) each level I think there should also be a feats list so that Wizards have metamagic that doesn't cost actions and warriors have extra hit points or whatever you want. You could make feats have mana pre-reqs so that red mana-ed dudes have a tendency to get "I hit stuff" feats and blue dudes have a tendency to get "I metamagic stuff" feats.
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Post by Cielingcat »

I was thinking of having Talents and Abilities. Talents are non-combat stunts you can pull using your skill at whatever (an example Talent would be Pick Pocket, Scale Wall, or Conceal) while I forget what I intended Abilities to be. I know I had 2 sets of "skill things" but I can't remember what they actually were.

I don't really see the need for feats to effect your combat potency, since really someone's combat ability should be set by what attributes you take and, more importantly, which "spells" you purchase. So a red dude who likes stabbing things takes Lava Axe (which summons an axe made of lava for him to fight with) and Haste (which makes him hit really hard, really fast), while a red dude who wants to be a pyromancer takes Lightning Bolt (which fries one dude) and Fireball (which fries a bunch of dudes). And a blue dude might take Misdirect (which can retarget spells) and Counterspell (which counters spells) because he likes fucking with people.

The blue dude could also be a warrior and take Cloak (which conceals him with illusions) and Mirror Image (which is like in D&D only it helps you attack, because the opponent doesn't know which image is attacking).
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