Logical Fallacies for RPGs

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Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp
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Logical Fallacies for RPGs

Post by Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp »

After hearing this from a 1E Forum in reference to Polymorph Other being able to affect oneself.
Considering that shape change is 9th level, the designer must be assumed to be a dribbling idiot under this interpretation, as well as guilty of giving spells misleading names.
I thought it'd be prudent to write some RPG related logical fallacies

1. This spell's title is "X" therefore it can't be used to accomplish "Y"
2. 4th Spell "X" would be nearly as powerful as spell 9th "Y" so clearly it doesn't work that way
3. Interpreting the spell this way would mean that the author was an idiot, so clearly the spell doesn't work that way

Please feel free to add numbers and examples to the list.
Last edited by Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by koz »

One cannot forget Oberoni. "Rule X is broken/unclear/doesn't work as intended/whatever, but as the GM can fix it, it's not a problem."

Or, in summary, "Just because you can fix it, doesn't mean it's not broken."
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Post by Data Vampire »

There's the Reductio ad WoW
Last edited by Data Vampire on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

And then there's "It's not a problem because if a player tried that in my game, I'd hit him with the DMG."
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

There's a difference between:

'The magical item economy in 4E is bad because it hurts suspension of disbelief and railroads PCs into using items the DM selects for them; Andy Collins was obviously jerking off to his Night Elf while wishing he worked for Blizzard when he came up with that. So now we're stuck with it.'

and:

'The magical item economy is 4E is bad because the price fixing is what they do in FATAL.'

Complain about the second, sure, but you don't get to go 'WoW Fallacy!' if someone does the first one.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

Bill, I'd just stop posting in that forum if I were you. Even skimming that one thread made me rage against that Kent guy.

Here's a list off the top of my head:

Oberoni Fallacy: Rules aren't broke because you can change them. (If I wanted to write my own rules, I wouldn't have paid $30 for a game book.)

Stormwind Fallacy: Character optimization and roleplaying are mutually exclusive. (Usually a false dichotomy put up by the "roleplay vs. rollplay" crowd.)

Page 42 Fallacy: The rules aren't incomplete because you can make your own rules. (Again, if I wanted to spend the time making my own rules, I wouldn't have plopped down my hard-earned cash to buy a book.)

Paizil Fallacy: Claiming that facts are opinions. (This is Roy's. I'm not sure if I'm putting it correctly, but it basically amounts to ignoring statistical analysis because statements like "blaster wizards are underpowered" is just, like, your opinion, man.)

Allow me to point to a delightfully rage-inducing example on the Paizo forums:
...I am not now, nor have I ever been convinced that folks on the interwebs bearing "proof" of this or that have any idea what the hell they are talking about.

There is just so much more to actual play then crunching numbers, like for instance random variable from: situation/terrain, party/encounter composition, magic items available, flavor choices, different ability score brackets, equipment choices, feat choices, multiclassing, etc...

Just because you took a specific set of circumstances and tested raw damage output under those circumstances does not prove imbalance. All it means is that if we were not rolling dice (and living purely on set outputs for the rolls), and playing in a perfectly devoid microcosm that if two characters took those exact options that this "proof" would happen every time. But it does nothing to illustrate the classes overall balance in the thousands of other imaginable gameplay scenarios.

In that vein I often find that folks who have "proof", really don't have anything but an opinion they are trying to validate by creating a specific scenario that supports their opinion, while in most cases ignoring the rest of the variables of the game altogether.

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Playtesting Fallacy: You have to play the game to analyze the rules. (This is one I just thought up, given the whole Paizo debacle, but it's the idea that you can't evaluate the rules without actually playing the game. Math is hard or something.)
Last edited by Psychic Robot on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by hogarth »

The M.A.D. Fallacy: "Overpowered and outright broken rules work perfectly, because if PCs abuse them, NPCs can too."

The "Moops" Fallacy: "Even if a rule has an obvious typo, it should still be interpreted literally."
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Post by Caedrus »

Really, when you insert things like "should" and similarly opinionated things you are not naming a new logical fallacy. In fact all you're doing is devaluing the term.
Last edited by Caedrus on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Roy »

The Paizil Fallacy is actually trying to dismiss facts as opinions because the user does not agree with them or cannot refute them. Calling it a cop out would also be accurate, but this is more descriptive.

And yes, math is hard for the Paizils. They nerfed all non casters into useless forever because Power Attack math is too hard for them. Yes, it's so hard to subtract x from one side and add x or x * 2 to the other. :roll:

They then went and lied about it so much that the amount of effort put into the cover up is on par with that employed by the Nazis. Yes, I went there.

The Paizils are the Holocaust of the gaming world. Discuss.
Last edited by Roy on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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Post by Maxus »

Here's a favorite:

The old Stormwind Fallacy. The idea that caring one whit about optimizing or mechanics disqualifies you from being a good roleplayer, but then you're OMG ROLLPLAYING
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Roy wrote:The Paizil Fallacy is actually trying to dismiss facts as opinions because the user does not agree with them or cannot refute them. Calling it a cop out would also be accurate, but this is more descriptive.

And yes, math is hard for the Paizils. They nerfed all non casters into useless forever because Power Attack math is too hard for them. Yes, it's so hard to subtract x from one side and add x or x * 2 to the other. :roll:
I always though the the power attack math was harder in Pathfinder. There's a bunch of 150%s and "for every 4 BAB you have..." crap. It's pretty much just a clusterfuck of fail.
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Post by ubernoob »

Ran into this at the session last night:
"Taking away class features from a player is ok as long as the fluff justifies it (wizard)"
and
"Not having choices does not make something less interesting (sorcerer)"
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Post by A Man In Black »

hogarth wrote:The "Moops" Fallacy: "Even if a rule has an obvious typo, it should still be interpreted literally."
This should be named the Detect Meal fallacy. ¬_¬
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Post by schpeelah »

There is a Detect Eal Meal(fuck it's contagious) spell? I can't begin to describe how awesome that is.
But seriously, where's that one from?

*Add "Detect Meal" to the "to stat" list.*
Current "to stat" list: Force Arm magic item, Spiral Drill magic lance or feat, Shield feat that isn't utter ass, Vengeant Knight feat, Detect Meal spell.
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Post by TOZ »

Since I've been butting my head against this one the last couple days, does this count as anything?
I Don't Like Ranking the Character Classes by Tier wrote:I didn't want to derail other threads or go off-topic by imposing my feelings rather than adding to the discussion, so here I give my opinion. This is a dumb, pointless exercise that doesn't help anyone make or play their character better. It's just creates reasons to whine and dud ammunition to detractors of certain classes.

I hate it.
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Post by Username17 »

A Man In Black wrote:
hogarth wrote:The "Moops" Fallacy: "Even if a rule has an obvious typo, it should still be interpreted literally."
This should be named the Detect Meal fallacy. ¬_¬
This isn't even a fucking fallacy and is in many ways a totally rational method of doing things. Many times you'll read a rule and simply cannot believe that it was "supposed" to say that. And maybe it wasn't. But if you can't get your friends to agree on pizza toppings, do you really think you'r going to be able to get them to agree on your remote viewings of what the designers probably meant? Fuck no! But on the flip side, unless your friends are illiterate, chances are excellent that you can get them to agree on what a rule actually says. Any changes to that can be discussed openly and there are a myriad of decent reasons for doing so. And "we as a group feel this rule probably represents a typographical error" is as good a reason as any.

But the word "fallacy" is grotesquely over used. A Fallacy is not a statement that you disagree with. There is no "Republican Fallacy" or "Communist Fallacy." It's not even a fact that is provably wrong. There is no "2+2=5" fallacy either. A Fallacy is a line of argument which is a priori incapable of rationally arguing for the position it is nominally in favor of. So the Oberoni Fallacy is a proper Fallacy, the Stormwind Fallacy is not. The Oberoni Fallacy is a Fallacy because the statement "I could fix that rule" inherently has no relevance one way or the other as to whether the rule in question requires fixing in the first place. Stormwind isn't because it's not an argument, it's just a premise that happens to be false. The statement "People who make powerful characters are bad roleplayers" is not true, but it's not an argument. And if it was true then the usual following argument of "You made a powerful character, therefore you're a munchkin" would be a valid one.

But this Moops shit is worse than that. Not only is it not a proper Fallacy or even an argument that could be a fallacy, it's actually a perfectly logical suggestion. Which means that anyone suggesting it as a fallacy is literally trying to jeer at and demonize people who are actually being helpful.

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Post by virgil »

It does seem like the contextual assumption for what 'fallacy' means is changing to include "false statement", at least on the net. I don't see the word used in verbal communication enough to make a judgement past that.
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Post by Data Vampire »

Roy wrote:The Paizil Fallacy is actually trying to dismiss facts as opinions because the user does not agree with them or cannot refute them. Calling it a cop out would also be accurate, but this is more descriptive.
Denying the counterevidence is listed as a fallacy in Attacking Faulty Reasoning page 172.
Denying the Counterevidence wrote:DEFINTION This fallacy consists in refusing to consider seriously or in unfairly minimizing the evidence that is brought against one's claim.
The Paizil Fallacy would be a variation of this and invalid argument for the same reason.

@ FrankTrollman: The Stormwind Fallacy is a false dilemma that states that you cannot be a good roleplayer and a powergamer. I've rarely actually seem someone invoke it, but it happens.
Last edited by Data Vampire on Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Crissa »

Yes, some of these are just mis-assumptions.

For instance, not playing the game can mean that your assumptions are incorrect about how something impacts the play.

However, that doesn't mean that analysis outside of table play are not possibly valid.

I ran into the "you can't coup de grace undead" problem last night in session. A player said that was okay, because "you could put a stake through a vampire's heart." We were fighting intelligent undead - the kind that die without their heads.

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Post by NineInchNall »

FrankTrollman wrote:the Stormwind Fallacy is not. ... Stormwind isn't because it's not an argument, it's just a premise that happens to be false. The statement "People who make powerful characters are bad roleplayers" is not true, but it's not an argument. And if it was true then the usual following argument of "You made a powerful character, therefore you're a munchkin" would be a valid one.
Actually, the Stormwind Fallacy is just a specific example of a False Dichotomy, which is an Informal Fallacy. If you want to limit the term fallacy to include only formal errors, then that's your prerogative, I guess, but there are things out there denoted as fallacies by logicians that are not errors of form.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

We're using the term "fallacy" pretty loosely. It's like the whole "4e is WoW" argument. While it's not technically true, it describes the criticism leveled at 4e in an easy-to-understand manner (i.e., special attack spam, rules that are completely metagame, videogame roles, and so on).
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

4e resembles WoW as much as.... it resembles Quake or Left 4 Dead.

Seriously, WoW is a much higher paced game than 4e could ever be when it comes to "dungeons".

With the latest version, WoW has players completing dungeons with almost no stopping, pausing, or preparing needed for every single encounter. Something that it did a lot.

Players seriously complete end-game 5-man dungeons in 15 minutes if they are well geared and know the dungeon perfectly and are running with a group that has a lot of experience and skill. With a much less capable group, you'll finish in about... 20-40 minutes. A far cry from the 1 hour or more that it once was to both get a group, and then complete the dungeon.

WoW is now more similar to Diablo when it comes to going into a dungeon and fighting baddies. Honestly, I think it's an improvement. It's less tedious, more exciting, and allows players to actually accomplish things even if they play casually.

Seriously, 4e could learn a lot from WoW in terms of what makes a fun game that is straightforward. Players should be able to move through a whole dungeon in a single sitting, and murder not one, but a few 'large' monsters/bosses in that same sitting. Anything less means that the game is too slow.

The 'dragon' end-boss is a 15-20 minute fight in real time, and that's the maximum. The preceeding smaller dragon bosses are seriously 1-2 rounds max to murder. Everything else is 1 round and dead.

People seriously need to get away from the idea that monsters should last more than 1 round in D&D once an equipped and un-cursed PC attacks them. With no, or less gear, and curses/debuffs, a PC might take more rounds, but that's fine, we know that the PC is 'weaker' right now.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

The WoW analogy is pretty apt. Basically everything that's wrong with 4e other than their tragic inability to do math or their grossly overtaxed development cycle can be attributed to them attempting to make WoW for the table top. Tanks and DPS are not concepts that make a lot of sense in a cooperative roleplaying game and stuffing them in was a bad thing. Blood Elves were unnecessary, and delaying classic D&D races so that they could put in Blood Elves and whoever the fucking Dratinaki or whatever the fuck from WoW are into the game was a truly alienating experience for long time D&D fans. One which, I remind you, added basically nothing. There was no reason to reimagine the Tieflings as the red skinned Dranickles from WoW, and them doing it was basically the designers admitting that they would rather play WoW than think about D&D.

Not only do I reject "Reducto ad WoW" as a fallacy, I find it to be a compelling line of persuasive argument. And I note that since the author has a thing about soulknives in his fucking .sig, that he's probably a moron. Thus it is that I can hardly be surprised that this claim of his is also bad. And if you can spot why what I did just there is not an "ad hominem" - you get a logic cookie.

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Post by A Man In Black »

schpeelah wrote:There is a Detect Eal Meal(fuck it's contagious) spell? I can't begin to describe how awesome that is.
But seriously, where's that one from?
The white box had the ability to "Detect Meal and what kind" as one of the random abilities you could roll up for a magic sword.
FrankTrollman wrote:Blood Elves were unnecessary, and delaying classic D&D races so that they could put in Blood Elves and whoever the fucking Dratinaki or whatever the fuck from WoW are into the game was a truly alienating experience for long time D&D fans.
The hell? What do Eladrin have in common with blood elves besides being elves? I don't think it was WOW that came up with two races of elves: stealthy, forest-living elves and magical, otherworldly elves.

And there is a race that rips off draenei, but it's devas, not tieflings. They're both purple-skinned paragons of good recently arrived from another world. They both even have a shamanistic tradition that makes no sense given their backstory. Draenei and tieflings have nothing in common besides completely awful names and horns.
Last edited by A Man In Black on Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Data Vampire »

FrankTrollman wrote:Not only do I reject "Reducto ad WoW" as a fallacy, I find it to be a compelling line of persuasive argument.
It would seem that was until you follow through with all elements that exist in both WoW and D&D. Existing in WoW doesn't automatically make something bad for D&D, but it doesn't mean that it won't be bad anyway.
And if you can spot why what I did just there is not an "ad hominem" - you get a logic cookie.
You didn't offer the personal as an argument for being wrong. Instead it was separate from the argument.
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