Proposed Game: Desire and the Dead (Tome)

[Avoraciopoctules]

How are masterwork items going to work? Can you get a set of Mwk Thieves Tools, and get the +2 bonus; how about say... a pair of crystal-clear, polished lenses, with small mirrors on the side, for looking behind? (+2 spot).

Stuff like that?

My initial inclination is to assume that Masterwork tools are fine. If you've got goggles designed to give you a wider field of vision, that's plausible enough for me count it as a masterwork "spotting kit".

But then I'm reminded of a major point of the Tome items being to get rid of stacking a bunch of miscellaneous bonuses to fly off the RNG. Masterwork tools were part of this problem.

I'll probably spend my magic items on a +hide Cloak, a pair of +Move Silently Boots, and maybe a magic wand for the third item; would say... Produce Flame be alright?

It gives 'fire' (1d6+1 fire damage) touch attacks, and ranged touch attacks (120 range, 1 per 2 rounds). It's that or Flame Blade or Blade of Pain and Fear. Spells with a DC are a waste, and the character has no actual offense abilities; right now he's mostly a stealth character.

Produce Flame is acceptable, but did you see that rod I posted?

Elemental Rod: This ebony rod has a colored gem at the end which the wielder can channel their will through to fire energy rays. This is an attack action, and the rays go out to Short range. The rays deal 1d6+DEX mod Fire, Cold, Lightning, or Acid damage. Switching between damage types is a move action.

I'll probably Camouflage Clothing as well for items. Some other random stuff might show up, dice, playing cards. Maybe a pet fruit bat (srsly, no effect, it's purely for flavour).

Oh, and the character's got an okay shot of activating items (+9 umd, +11 with scrolls; so 1st lvl scrolls on a 10+); but it's not very reliable.

Nice. There's probably a skill feat that will let you take 10 on UMD checks.

I'm considering a +charisma item, and a +umd headband; and maybe have a bunch of 1st lvl scrolls (say, 5), but I dunno how that might work out.

Or, just a +level to UMD item, and keep the stealth stuff; a +12 UMD at level 3 isn't too shabby.

Feel free to start with a case of minor scrolls. That doesn't count against your 3 item limit.

Also, Infernal Dalliance gives either 1 Bite, or 2 Claw attacks. Would getting them all, and counting as one size smaller be alright?

So, two 1d3 Claws, and a 1d4 Bite (normally those are 1d4 and 1d6); since I don't see him as having either big shark teeth, or actual freaking claws; but sharpened teeth, and eye-gouging fingers do fit more with the character.

Alright.

For the Subtype, I picked [Baatezu]; for immunity to fire/poison (we don't have any real users of fire, but this could be handy if there ever is a building on fire); ER acid 10, Cold 10; See in Darkness (this is actually pretty handy), Summon (i.e. I dunno what you want to do with that; I usually ignore it myself), and Telepathy (equal to speed? (30), or the usual 120'?)

The [Baatezu] subtype gives out those bonuses? Something feels off about this. My inclination would be to think that if so, it would specify that PCs got them, sort of like the Large Size feat.

Anyway, link is here.

In terms of combat stats, it's unimpressive; but he's hard to find, can move around, and can shoot with his crossbow with a +5 to hit (although honestly, that's not much; ranged touch attacks depend on getting a spell, or if I can use acid flasks and alchemists fire).

Can I assume that, yes, I can get acid flasks, and either jury rigged lamp oil, or straight out alchemist's fire? or not?

Yes, but you might want to look into the rod I posted instead.

Right now, this character is looking like they're an infiltrator, with arsonist capability (alch fire, oil; immune to fire); with the option for shanking (1d4+2d6+4 (power attack)) the relatively helpless.

I'm liking it conceptually, but we still need to work out a few things, I think.

EDIT: I changed my opinion on masterwork tools in the first block of text I wrote in this post.

[Akula]

For the Subtype, I picked [Baatezu]; for immunity to fire/poison (we don't have any real users of fire, but this could be handy if there ever is a building on fire); ER acid 10, Cold 10; See in Darkness (this is actually pretty handy), Summon (i.e. I dunno what you want to do with that; I usually ignore it myself), and Telepathy (equal to speed? (30), or the usual 120'?)

The [Baatezu] subtype gives out those bonuses? Something feels off about this. My inclination would be to think that if so, it would specify that PCs got them, sort of like the Large Size feat.

Yes, it really does, look up the subtype in the SRD.

I suggest that the following feats become [General] feats that scale based on character level:
Iron Will
Great Fortitude
Lightning Reflexes
Blind Fighting
and that you consider doing the same for:
Elusive Target
Danger Sense

@Kaelik: Ability focus might work depending on the wording of the classes abilities. Flyby Attack if you have a fly speed. Any of the feats from the Tome of Magic Binder section that make supernatural abilities better. Fiend or Necromantic feats if you think they fit your character.

[Avoraciopoctules]

For the Subtype, I picked [Baatezu]; for immunity to fire/poison (we don't have any real users of fire, but this could be handy if there ever is a building on fire); ER acid 10, Cold 10; See in Darkness (this is actually pretty handy), Summon (i.e. I dunno what you want to do with that; I usually ignore it myself), and Telepathy (equal to speed? (30), or the usual 120'?)

The [Baatezu] subtype gives out those bonuses? Something feels off about this. My inclination would be to think that if so, it would specify that PCs got them, sort of like the Large Size feat.

Yes, it really does, look up the subtype in the SRD.

Edit: Didn't a flamewar erupt over here about product of infernal dalliance tossing out two immunities and other traits as a single feat? Pretty sure it only gives fire/cold resist and the ability to take fiend feats.

New ruling. In my games, getting a fiendish subtype with PoID does not give a pile of piggyback bonuses that eclipse what the feat seems to be intended to give. The [Baatezu] subtype means that you count as a Devil for some effects.

I suggest that the following feats become [General] feats that scale based on character level:
Iron Will
Great Fortitude
Lightning Reflexes
Blind Fighting
and that you consider doing the same for:
Elusive Target
Danger Sense

And make Fie-tars less comparatively awesome? Nevar! They are still good enough to justify taking with a PC that has Bad BAB.

[Akula]

Incidentally my character is almost done. I need to write up one more armor, the feat we talked about, maybe change gear, and decide on a background.

[Judging__Eagle]

Actually, Frank's own ruling and intent was that a PC can seriously have a bunch of subtypes for the lulsz. It was a question that I specifically asked, since it seemed really odd and overpowered (to me) at the time. Frank corrected me, and said that the creature seriously gets the full effects of the subtype. Mostly b/c the rest of the feat gives things that a player either might care about, or might not.

Then I wrote up the sitcom idea that explains why some people have the [Baatezu] and [Yugoloth] subtypes on one creature. A bunch of fiends who are married to each other, and are basically a mash of every single "straight man" "wacky man" ensemble that you have ever seen, or known. Inversely, you can just pick characters in a sitcom and give them Fiendish subtypes, and the series becomes more hilarious. The Demodand is seriously George Costanza, the Taanari is Cosmo Kramer; Jerry Seinfeld is a Baatezu, and Elaine is a Baatezu as well; Newman is the Yugoloth. Seriously, those could be characters in a D&D game, and you wouldn't have to stretch too much to make say Kramer do something unpredictable. This idea can apply to many other types of multi-character stories. Ernie and Bert are a Yugoloth and a Taanari; and that's why they're childish and hilarious. Bert wants to organize his photos of rare pidgeons; and Ernie wants to sing to his rubber duckie while in the bathtub. Where the two collide is where the humour emerges.

Taking Product of Infernal Dalliance, then True Fiend, means that you are a non-fiend, whose recent ancestors was one, or the other, maybe even both. Like, your mom was a Yugoloth, and your mom was a Demodand (they used a proxy to carry you to term); so you seriously have the blood of "whoever" running through your veins. With each additional Subtype you really only gain minimal bonus things; as the bulk of the bonuses came when you got any Subtype.

As for why a Fiend-Fiend has some more powers than either of their parents is not a big deal. Call it mongrel vigour and move on.

It should be noted that Product of Infernal Dalliance, taken for getting [Fiend] feats sets a feat on fire, since you can get access to [Fiend] feats by playing a Tiefling/Aasimar; and unless you're a human, you're paying a massive feat tax just to play your character. Especially seeing as how you could have just played a forehead alien Tiefling/Aasimar, and described them as "looking particularily Dwarven/Elven/Human/Yourmumen/Tauren/Orc/Ork/Weeaboo". Which someone in this game has actually already done.

Much later on, in a different thread, when talking about the innate value of "Resistances", Frank basically lumped innate ER in the same place as Proffessions, Craft, Languages etc. aka, "resistance" to any elemental damage is flavour, not power; since any, and every time that the Players need to go somewhere that is on fire, or under da' sea, they're either prepared to survive the environment, and use a minor magic item, or they die. At higher levels, that minor magical effect comes lumped in with a moderate or major item's list of powers.

Elemental resistances were considered to be so hit or miss in terms of even appearing in a campaign that the times you have Fire Resistance X even matter to be the same as if someone learned Orc, or not. It might, or you might never see it matter once, and you know what? That's actually true. I've seriously ran, and played through several multi-level games where the PCs could all have had a mixed bag of different elemental resistances of values ranging from "none" to "immune"; and it wouldn't have affected the story once, at all. The PCs who have Poison immunity might never get attacked by a poison-using anything, and the guy with Fire Resistance may never face a single creature with Fire damage. A DM needs to specifically include things for a PC to even notice or think about, if they have on their character sheet.

---

On masterwork Tools; yeah, stacking Mwktools with Magic tools isn't possible, mostly b/c you can't use a "custom made" screw driver at the same time as when you are using your "sonic" screwdriver.

I tend to find that 'items' come in a few distinct categories, and you can't seriously use mixed levels of things for a single task; only the highest one gives the highest bonus; and eventually the Bonus is merely a "laundry list" ability of a more powerful item can simply lets you cast Passwall at will, since you're a 15th level adventurer, and actually opening mundane doors is a waste of your time. You only stop for trapped or 'quest' doors.

Grades of items, as I see them; with some sort of example.

-Improvised (a bunch of stolen pins, a few long, flat metal bars; a child could assemble this kit) -2 to check

-Normal (theive's tools; a novice locksmith would know how to get this) +0 to check

-Masterwork (custom made, high quality materials, little expense spared, a wide range of capabilities; an expert locksmith would have this) +2 to check

-Minor Magic (seriously there's a RL equivalent, it's called a lock pick gun, it's pretty crazy) +Level to skill

-Moderate Magic (The Dancing Expanding Lockpicks in a signet ring; you can direct them from across the room; and they're tough enough to
survive the trap going off, a couple times)

-Major Magic (Slaad Skin Slippers: With the SSS (in several stylish colours, such as Blue, Green, Red, Grey, Grey-Multi, and Black-Death), you can go up to doors, or traps and Giant Frog, with your abilities of Giant Frog)

-Artifact (Pips, the Magical Golem Sprite; A mechanical sprite that can shoot low level spells from it's key-arm, flies around, and has a skeleton key looking thing for a forearm, they shoot magic missile or scorching ray, have concealment, and can pick lock using your skill ranks; when it fails to fix a trap, it gets blown across the room at your feet and makes a sad joke about being unappreciated; unless you appreciate it, and then you can unlock "Happu Golemu Moddu", and each Platinum Key you feed Pips, will increase his happiness meter (aka, bullshit flavour, but people lap the shit up, and honestly, I like having it, wacky little sidekicks always get more traction as they are there to offset the current mood of a game or story))



In any case, I don't feel that masterwork tools are stupid; they have a place, and it's mostly in low level. Once you're past level 5, you don't give a damn about any item that is Masterwork anymore, be it eye-goggles, a sword, or a pair of boots. That's fine, but people seriously do play at level 1-4, and at those levels, spending cashmoney on improving your gear is going to happen. I feel that simplifying the plethora of "tools" that came about in various splatbooks is easier dealt with by simply folding them all together.

A +2 to Hide Checks clothing or cloak, the same as a +2 to disable device checks theives tools; and those items were all pretty much written up in Arms and Equipment; everything from dumb bullshit like "a big forge, for forging more at once" to "A Harpoon, which makes tower shield builds viable".



The Ebon Rod... I actuallly didn't see in any of the first few pages, unless it was in a spoiler block or something. D: Sorry that I missed it.

I think that the "take 10" umd feat doesn't unlock until +11 or +16 BaB, and it's actually Combat Looter, last I recall.

[Nicklance]

I don't think fire immunity is such an issue when any schmuck with access to a sphere can always take the Pyre sphere can lay the burn, unless I'm wrong about that.

But its good to have a proper rogue-type with us now.

[Kaelik]

1) Frank was explicit about Product giving subtypes and all the benefits of. Because otherwise it's an ass feat. Just keep that in mind.

2) Av, you do realize my character is completely finished right?

3) I agree about making all of those general feats that scale on CL. BAB scaling for things like that is the reason it feels like ass to take them.

[Mask_De_H]

May I use this feat?

Cerebral Assassin [Skill]
You out-think your foes, aiming to win before battle starts, and fooling your foes into walking into your expertly laid traps.

Benefit: As a Swift action, you may call an opponent's attention towards you. This brief distraction grants all allies a +1 bonus to strike them until your next turn, and +1d6 damage.

4+ ranks in Bluff: Anyone who misses you in melee by 5 or more points suffers damage equal to 1d6 + your Intelligence modifier.

9+ ranks in Bluff: The bonuses improve to +2 and +2d6 respectively. Additionally, if you make a trap, the DC to spot and disarm is equal to the Craft (Trap) check result. Yeah, it's that hard. The trap deals extra damage (if a damage-dealing trap) equal to your Int modifier.

[Avoraciopoctules]

(argh, lost my post the first time. This computer annoys me)

Persuasive arguments have been made for Product of Infernal Dalliance giving full subtype bonuses, masterwork gear existing, but not stacking with other +skill items, and some defensive feats scaling by character level.

So I'm changing my rulings on those. For the masterwork skill items, please remember to keep things reasonable. Unless it's crucial to your character concept, I don't want to see a gear bonus to every skill.

May I use this feat?

Cerebral Assassin [Skill]
You out-think your foes, aiming to win before battle starts, and fooling your foes into walking into your expertly laid traps.

Benefit: As a Swift action, you may call an opponent's attention towards you. This brief distraction grants all allies a +1 bonus to strike them until your next turn, and +1d6 damage.

4+ ranks in Bluff: Anyone who misses you in melee by 5 or more points suffers damage equal to 1d6 + your Intelligence modifier.

9+ ranks in Bluff: The bonuses improve to +2 and +2d6 respectively. Additionally, if you make a trap, the DC to spot and disarm is equal to the Craft (Trap) check result. Yeah, it's that hard. The trap deals extra damage (if a damage-dealing trap) equal to your Int modifier.

I'll allow it, but it means tracking tiny bonuses, which I find somewhat annoying. Also feels powerful, but not so much that I'd make an issue of it.

2) Av, you do realize my character is completely finished right?

Sorry, no I didn't. I've just been skimming people's character sheets so far.

[ubernoob]

May I use this feat?

Cerebral Assassin [Skill]
You out-think your foes, aiming to win before battle starts, and fooling your foes into walking into your expertly laid traps.

Benefit: As a Swift action, you may call an opponent's attention towards you. This brief distraction grants all allies a +1 bonus to strike them until your next turn, and +1d6 damage.

4+ ranks in Bluff: Anyone who misses you in melee by 5 or more points suffers damage equal to 1d6 + your Intelligence modifier.

9+ ranks in Bluff: The bonuses improve to +2 and +2d6 respectively. Additionally, if you make a trap, the DC to spot and disarm is equal to the Craft (Trap) check result. Yeah, it's that hard. The trap deals extra damage (if a damage-dealing trap) equal to your Int modifier.

I really like this, but the second ability makes it way to fucking tempting to put on my 'tank' character and that doesn't fit the flavor at all. Perhaps instead of your +4 ranks ability, this:
4+ ranks in Bluff: Anyone who misses you in melee provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack of opportunity may only be used to trip or disarm. You may use your ranks in bluff instead of your BAB on this maneuver.


Limiting it by AoOs (because my character has almost none) and getting a free 'fuck you, no attacking me any more' seems better IMO.

Just something that may be a bit more interesting than straight +damage IMO.

[Kaelik]

Reposted from earlier Char

Aasimar Totemist 3
1 Ability Focus (Call Totems)
3 Danger Sense

Soulmelds

Ankeg +Resist Cold
Corrolax +enhance Dex
Blood Hawks +SR
Mephit +enhance Con
Harpoon +Natural Armor
Stirge +Resist Acid
Rust Monster +Resist Fire

Currently Showing:
Corrolax
BloodHawks
Mephit

Items
+Cha
Chitin Carapace
Resistance to saves
Bunch of nets.

Wishlist:
stuff that makes me hear better/hide better

Race and Type: Medium Outsider (human)
Class: Totemist 3
Speaks: Common, Celestial, Infernal, Terran, Abyssal
Allegiances: None

Stats
12
14
16
16
12
19

Skills: Listen, Search, Survival, UMD, Hide, MS, Handle Animal, Climb

BAB/Grapple: +2/+3 (3 bab, 8 size, 5 str)
AC: 17, 15 flatfooted, 12 touch (10 base, 5 armor, 2 Dex)
Speed: 30ft
Initiative:+5
Hit Points: 31/31
Saves: Fort +5(1 base, 3 con, 1 resist), Ref +4(1 base, 2 dex, 1 resist), Will +5(3 base, 1 wis, 1 resist)

Other Stuff:
Arcane Sight
Uncanny Dodge
Wild Empathy

[Avoraciopoctules]

May I use this feat?

Cerebral Assassin [Skill]
You out-think your foes, aiming to win before battle starts, and fooling your foes into walking into your expertly laid traps.

Benefit: As a Swift action, you may call an opponent's attention towards you. This brief distraction grants all allies a +1 bonus to strike them until your next turn, and +1d6 damage.

4+ ranks in Bluff: Anyone who misses you in melee by 5 or more points suffers damage equal to 1d6 + your Intelligence modifier.

9+ ranks in Bluff: The bonuses improve to +2 and +2d6 respectively. Additionally, if you make a trap, the DC to spot and disarm is equal to the Craft (Trap) check result. Yeah, it's that hard. The trap deals extra damage (if a damage-dealing trap) equal to your Int modifier.

I really like this, but the second ability makes it way to fucking tempting to put on my 'tank' character and that doesn't fit the flavor at all. Perhaps instead of your +4 ranks ability, this:
4+ ranks in Bluff: Anyone who misses you in melee provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack of opportunity may only be used to trip or disarm. You may use your ranks in bluff instead of your BAB on this maneuver.


Limiting it by AoOs (because my character has almost none) and getting a free 'fuck you, no attacking me any more' seems better IMO.

Just something that may be a bit more interesting than straight +damage IMO.

I feel a lot better about the feat with this change.

[Judging__Eagle]

Anyway, Needleteeth is done.

Defensively, he's unimpressive, his saves are low; his AC is non existant; and his HP is affected by his Con mod, even with max hp rolls. He's low level and fragile.

His damage could be decent; 3d6+3 Fire/Acid/Electricity/Cold damage can be pretty handy on creatures, and 1d6+3 Acid damage can ... actually, I can't seem to find the rules on how energy damage interacts with objects. I think that some of the energy types don't function as well as others do on objects.

Anyway, he can do some ranged hurting.

He's got +15 to hide/move silently thanks to stats, skill ranks, feats and items. Spot and listen are +12; and search and disable device are +12 each. I can't get consistently high checks, but I can get good ones when I take 10

---

By the by, how do people feel about say... Disguse Kits, being used to put face-paint on a creature, and make them say... look more intimidating? (you have to make a Disguise check that is at least as high as your subjects ranks in Intimidate (then get a +2 bonus).

Or, you know, just magical disgiuse paint; or magical masks?

I tend to find that the minor magic item system allows for more creativity in terms of "what" a magic item can be. Since you're not worried about "body slots" and can seriously have a bunch of magical items in the same area. If you describe it differently.

Having a bunch of Mr.T chains (of Str, Con, Natural armour) and a bunch of Mr. T rings (Of bonus to Slam attacks; and bonuses to skills like Craft (Wrecking Vehicle), Ride (Van, Wrecking Vehicle), and Intimidate); and well... you've got BA. The "diablo slottery" method doesn't allow such a character concept, which is really dumb, since it forces every character to look the same, each with a belt, gloves, necklace, helmet, boots, bracers, gloves, etc., and use the same type items for the same type of results. We know that's an ass way to deal with making interesting characters.

[Mask_De_H]

Eh, with that change it fits uber's build a lot more than it does mine now, so I'll switch to Blitz.

[Prak]

grar! damn glitchy computer... back now, I hope... but by that token, my computer seems to be under constant assault by adware and virus, so it may glitch out occasionally. Sad as it is, I'm getting somewhat adept at fixing it, so it shouldn't glitch out for long periods, maybe a day or so.

Hey Av. I'm looking at your Pyromantic Dabbler feat, it'd get me a couple attack options, namely produce flame. Would that be ok?

Yes.

Cool. I'll be looking at grabbing that then, but I have to weigh the feats I'm looking at since I'll only have two to start with.

-stuff about minor magic items-

Awesome, I'll keep that in mind.

What I'm looking at are Use-Activated bracers of Darkbolt (BoVD) and Blade of Pain and Fear(LM) (one bracer each, if acceptable) for always available attack options.

Darkbolt would do 1d8 (half cold, half untyped) per caster level as a ranged touch, Blade of Pain and Fear does 1d6 plus 1 per 2 caster levels untyped damage as a melee touch attack. RAW says str doesn't apply to damage (presumably because it's not an actual sword, though I'd much prefer if the bracer created basically a mindblade with those stats, something my character held).

Would those be ok as minor objects?

So, a Standard action to shoot something comparable to a Fire Mage's attack action? Acceptable. The second one is fine as well, since there are plenty of other ways to get touch attacks at this point, and my understanding is that it takes a Standard action to create and cannot be discarded without ending the effect. In fact, those seem great enough drawbacks that I am fine just treating it like a normal weapon for the purposes of Strength bonus. You can reflavor it into making a sword of force or whatever if you want.

Ok, I'll have those, and, what, one more minor item?

I'm actually perfectly fine with the normal flavour, since my character's some demonic gestapo (wo)man, firing icy bolts of darkness and swinging around a blade composed of gnashing teeth fits her perfectly, I think.

I was about to say this chick's probably going to be the scariest anti-crime agent ever but then I remembered we're playing on Sigil, so... there's conceivably an entire unit of fiends in the actual City Watch that's plenty more scary and disturbing.

I'll get Akarchin done asap.

[Judging__Eagle]

Hmm.... pyromaniancs.... gestapo agents, murderers, and killers.

I'll be honest, some days it's just fun to be a dark hat, or wear no hat at all.

[ubernoob]

Eh, with that change it fits uber's build a lot more than it does mine now, so I'll switch to Blitz.

I changed it from missing by 5 or more to just 'missing' and getting to use an AoO (which you get two of) to do a trip check (6 ranks, 1 str = +7 check vs bab+str since tome rules exclude size) or disarm (opposed attack roll, so 6 bab, 1 soldier cap int, 1 str, 1 magic = +9 vs attack bonus the enemy has).

So yeah, against pretty much any mook you can just disarm them or trip two per round on AoOs. If you feel your success rate isn't high enough, give yourself 14 strength to bump the bonus by 1. But yeah, neither maneuver uses size and horde breaker gets extra AoOs based on dex.

Compare that to say, combat school. Which gives an incredible +2 to damage.

Jeez.

[Prak]

I'm thinking of asking about a Black Bag as my third item, as in the BoVD spell that creates a bag full of small torture implements (ie, pretty much anything in the book other than large stationary stuff like pillories, racks and maidens) and acts as a Bag of Holding with a 10 cubic foot capacity for evil items, but first, a question for you guys:

would everyone be ok with a torturer in the group?

[Judging__Eagle]

Needleteeth can't partake, per se, but he can give plenty of advice.

The most basic one is "we put a bag on his head, feed them at random times, and never let them know what time of day it is, or how long we've held them captive."

After all, not all damage is physical, and well, pain leads to lies. Also, maiming and stuff.

Honestly, the problem isn't the torture, it's the sometimes skewed results that can follow that's the problem. Subjecting people to even more modern tortures, such as "stand in one spot, or we shoot you" (1940's and onward, Russia) or "we're going to look over your medical records, and give you specialized treatments that will cause you suffering" (modern, US)... well, they really don't give the torturer any info that's worth the torture.

Of course... D&D land seriously has shit like Regeneration, and Cure spells. So, you can chop up someone, and do it again. Of course, it's still pretty dark if you actually -do- that, but it makes a great threat to use during intimidation.

[koz]

Alice would likely have no issues with torturing someone who she feels 'deserves it', although as a knight, she may consider it well beneath her, and would not take part herself.

Barronar would be endlessly whiney on this subject, but frankly, he's a bit of a hippie, so feel free to ignore him.

[Mask_De_H]

Eh, with that change it fits uber's build a lot more than it does mine now, so I'll switch to Blitz.

I changed it from missing by 5 or more to just 'missing' and getting to use an AoO (which you get two of) to do a trip check (6 ranks, 1 str = +7 check vs bab+str since tome rules exclude size) or disarm (opposed attack roll, so 6 bab, 1 soldier cap int, 1 str, 1 magic = +9 vs attack bonus the enemy has).

So yeah, against pretty much any mook you can just disarm them or trip two per round on AoOs. If you feel your success rate isn't high enough, give yourself 14 strength to bump the bonus by 1. But yeah, neither maneuver uses size and horde breaker gets extra AoOs based on dex.

Compare that to say, combat school. Which gives an incredible +2 to damage.

Jeez.

Nah, it's not a GRAR NOT ENOUGH POWAH thing, I just didn't think the special attack options fit (was thinking just hanging back with bow and Harpoon Spider, then catching people who got close with my melee touch attacks). Nor did I remember that Tome Trip/Disarm doesn't count size.

As the Juggernaut, bitch designated tank, the rewrite is still a great benefit to your build as opposed to an interesting trick for mine.

[ubernoob]

Eh, with that change it fits uber's build a lot more than it does mine now, so I'll switch to Blitz.

I changed it from missing by 5 or more to just 'missing' and getting to use an AoO (which you get two of) to do a trip check (6 ranks, 1 str = +7 check vs bab+str since tome rules exclude size) or disarm (opposed attack roll, so 6 bab, 1 soldier cap int, 1 str, 1 magic = +9 vs attack bonus the enemy has).

So yeah, against pretty much any mook you can just disarm them or trip two per round on AoOs. If you feel your success rate isn't high enough, give yourself 14 strength to bump the bonus by 1. But yeah, neither maneuver uses size and horde breaker gets extra AoOs based on dex.

Compare that to say, combat school. Which gives an incredible +2 to damage.

Jeez.

Nah, it's not a GRAR NOT ENOUGH POWAH thing, I just didn't think the special attack options fit (was thinking just hanging back with bow and Harpoon Spider, then catching people who got close with my melee touch attacks). Nor did I remember that Tome Trip/Disarm doesn't count size.

As the Juggernaut, bitch designated tank, the rewrite is still a great benefit to your build as opposed to an interesting trick for mine.

Fair enough. I'll switch out menacing demeanor for your feat then.

[Prak]

ok, anyone else want to weigh in on torture? If not, would a Black Bag be an ok magic item, Av?

[Kaelik]

Totemist. I will eat people already. I don't care if you play around with my food before I eat them.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I am willing to run a game with PCs who are okay with torture. However, some NPCs will have strong opinions about this. There are a number of reasons that the Harmonium aren't getting called in to take care of the Grey District's problems.

The item is acceptable.