This is exactly what you said:Judging__Eagle wrote:Not single fighter; large groups of PCs. This was in my high-stat, no to low magic item game that had a large group of PCs.ubernoob wrote:JE, please show me a level 6 PHB fighter (not tome, no custom artifacts, just the core rules) can defeat a single bulette.
A Hamatula has 126 hp, 29 AC, DR 10/good, SR 23, a weak save of +12, and +22 grapple mod (with an average of 8d8+24=60 damage on a grappling full attack if it hits on the first attack, which it will with +18 to hit).
How the FUCK are level 6 PCs supposed to deal with that short of bullshit spells like shivering touch? For reference, I'll estimate out what a level 6 PC has to do against the Hamatula.
Fighter type:
To hit of +14/9 (6 bab, 1 magic, 6 str, 2 misc) for 2d6+10ish damage per round. Since he's level 6, his weapon isn't holy so he doesn't cut the DR and is going to take many, many rounds to hurt the Hamatula at all.
Really, let's just ignore the fighter types because they just get raped by the DR, AC, and HP too badly.
Caster type:
DC 20 (10 base 3 level 6 stat 1 spell focus) slow/stinking fog effect. Less than 50% chance it even fails the save, and you still can't really harm it.
A Hamatula RAPES most level six characters party or no party. Now, is there anything I missed?
Yeah, that is quite literally exactly what you said. This is a forum, not a conversation; it records exactly what you said so you can't pull this "I said something different" crap.Judging__Eagle wrote:So, using a CR 11 Hamatula against 4 level 6 PCs is really "not a big deal", and they should be expected to win. When they take a 4th round, is when it's funny, because it's not that they can't win, it's that they are not doing what they need to do, and will probably still win.
This still doesn't answer my question. Here is the question:With a total of 11 members, the group was very large; 8 PCs, and 3 Cohorts; 2 wizards, 1 cleric, 1 bard, 1 rogue, 1 ranger/scount, and then 3 Barbarian/Fighters going for either Bear or Lion Warrior, or Frenzied Zerker; Chorots were 1 Formian Warrior, 1 Orc Fighter/Barbarian, 1 Goblin Ranger.
I first threw a Bulette at them when they were level 4 or 5; the Wizard's scorching rays finished off the Bulette after the six melee based PCs did their business. When I threw six at the PCs, they were all in the level 6 zone; and so long as no single PC was mobbed up, the group didn't have to worry about killing them all. At one point one of the Fighters was getting pretty low, but the Cleric had a Fly cast on him, so he just could thumb his nose at enemies and could respond to injured PCs very quickly.
For reference, this is a totally reasonable question because just above it you said this:ubernoob wrote:JE, please show me a level 6 PHB fighter (not tome, no custom artifacts, just the core rules) can defeat a single bulette.
Now answer the question.You, yes you wrote:Nor is using a bunch of CR 7 Bulettes against a large group of level 5-6 PCs. The player characters can murder shit like that. Even using PHB classes like 'fighter' and 'barbarian', they can murder shit like that.
Ok, here's what you actually wrote:The Hamatula fight was against:
-RoW barbarian with adamantine armour, juggernaut, and 20-something str
-wizard and lvl 4 cleric cohort
-lvl 6 rogue
The Hamatula juggled the PCs; and the cleric cohort used Calm Emotions to remove the Fear effects; the Ham used Scorching Rays on the PCs, hurting the wizard. The Barbarian was pretty much 'in the way' for most of the fight, and their DR was enough to shrug off any of the Hamatula's attacks.
Eventually the PCs clued in that the Barb could outgrapple the Hamatula, and then the PCs dogpiled the Fiend, while the Rogue used CdG twice to kill it.
Seriously, the rogue was a character with the soulknife feat that I wrote up; and only used a single dagger, no TWF.
Even gimped looking characters can add up to take down a higher looking challenge, and the CR 11 vs 3 CR 6 1, and 1 CR 4, creatures 'encounter' is something in the 5% of all encounters range. Overpowering, but expected to occur.
I never said it was an 'easy' fight, but seriously, it's just a CR 10 trap. I forgot to mention the Forcecage that was cast around the Barbarian, hemming her in with the Hamatula.
This was the trap that I used, right out of the DMG; the encounter tables were not kind.
linkDMG Traps Section wrote: Forcecage and Summon Monster VII trap
CR 10; magic device; proximity trigger (alarm); automatic reset; multiple traps (one forcecage trap and one summon monster VII trap that summons a hamatula); spell effect (forcecage, 13th-level wizard), spell effect (summon monster VII, 13th-level wizard, hamatula); Search DC 32; Disable Device DC 32. Cost: 241,000 gp, 7,280 XP. Note: This trap is really one CR 8 trap that creates a forcecage and a second CR 8 trap that summons a hamatula in the same area. If both succeed, the hamatula appears inside the forcecage. These effects are independent of each other.
I might misrecall, and the PCs might have been 3 lvl 7 PCs, and a lvl 5 cohort, but I'm pretty sure that they weren't. No Recitation was thrown down. Heck, the PCs won and the Wizard didn't even cast a Haste or Enlarge Person.
Yes, your words are "Not a big deal"JE wrote:So, using a CR 11 Hamatula against 4 level 6 PCs is really "not a big deal", and they should be expected to win. When they take a 4th round, is when it's funny, because it's not that they can't win, it's that they are not doing what they need to do, and will probably still win.
The barbarian had a +23 grapple mod tops, DR 5 (couldn't find anything in the tome about changing the 'highest applies only' rule), and 60-70 hp. That's assuming that the barbarian took the large size [fiend] feat, obviously.
On a successful grapple check, he deals 2d6+9 or so damage. Since he has no way to make his natural weapons good aligned, that gets cut to an average of 6 damage per check. On each check (success or fail), he takes 1d8+6 damage from barbed defense reduced by his DR for an average of 5 damage per check.
Yes, if the barbarian always makes his grapple checks and never fails he literally kills himself just for trying to grapple the Hamatula.
The barbarian built to be a grapple monster (juggernaut, large size) can actually equal the grapple modifier, but he STILL gets raped. Oh, and as soon as the Hamatula gets out he can greater teleport, recoup and then fuck up the rest of the party since his stealth is well above what the barbarian can do (when the rogue gets to act in the surprise round it is only to get one round grapple raped).
Fuck you, you fucking liar. Even with tome classes outsiders 5 above your own level are fucking hard.