LotR gets filtered from D&D more with each edition.

[Username17]

What was the original argument about? This all went into the 'very confusing' territory for me.

"D&D is becoming less and less like LotR, and that is a good thing."

No I get that. I got confused when this turned into a discussion of fantasy racism and what race would get kicked out of a human village.

How to these two relate? Can't you be racist to someone without kicking them out of your village?

RC made the claim that moving away from LotR-races for PCs lacked verisimilitude because "obviously" the "villages" wouldn't let anyone who "looked inhuman" into them, and thus the non-LotR races could not plausibly adventure. This claim failed basic game theory and statistical analysis, ad RC was forced to amend his position with the claim that a 12 foot tall human with blue skin "looked inhuman" while a 12 foot tall huma with blue skin and wings did not.

Basically it boils down to a slippery slope argument from RC. His claim boils down to "Shifting away from LotR fanwank races is bad, because rational villagers will randomly attack characters from non-LotR fanwank races for no adequately explained reason." If you take away the assumption that NPCs will flip the fuck out seeing a dude with scales in a world where it is normal for a certain percentage of people to have scales - then RC's argument against against marginalizing LotR fanwank collapses like a house of cards. It's literally entirely dependent upon that completely unsupportable premise.

-Username17

[Fuchs]

Making the game setting a kitchen sink Sigil-copy is not all that and a bag of chips either though. Not everyone likes playing in such a setting, and some players might even be disappointed if no one shuns their evil-looking but good characters until they prove themselves.

[RandomCasualty2]

RC made the claim that moving away from LotR-races for PCs lacked verisimilitude because "obviously" the "villages" wouldn't let anyone who "looked inhuman" into them, and thus the non-LotR races could not plausibly adventure. This claim failed basic game theory and statistical analysis, ad RC was forced to amend his position with the claim that a 12 foot tall human with blue skin "looked inhuman" while a 12 foot tall huma with blue skin and wings did not.

Clerics would teach about them. Anyone who has a temple to a good aligned god probably has clerics telling stories about the great angelic defenders of Pelor. Seriously. That's what religions do.

Making the game setting a kitchen sink Sigil-copy is not all that and a bag of chips either though. Not everyone likes playing in such a setting, and some players might even be disappointed if no one shuns their evil-looking but good characters until they prove themselves.

Yeah. Honestly, if you want to make a monster PC interesting, this is generally the way to do it. The moment you have the world be apathetic to him, then he really does become dull and boring.

The same is even true of elves and dwarves. People should notice the guy is an elf or a dwarf and react accordingly. This doesn't mean they kill him, but maybe elves are revered or distrusted, maybe they keep asking the dwarf for mining tips, who knows... but the campaign world absolutely shouldn't go all video game and just be totally blind to what the character put down as his race.

[virgil]

Clerics would teach about them. Anyone who has a temple to a good aligned god probably has clerics telling stories about the great angelic defenders of Pelor. Seriously. That's what religions do.

These clerics will teach people of the angelic defenders of all the gods, rather than the two or three associated with their specific god? Might as well tell them which undead are potentially friendly (like Necropolitans). The sage/druid/wizard can teach everyone about the rest, because if you're going to live in a community, you're going to want to make sure the guards know which ones would benefit everyone and which ones will start eating people once they're inside.

Once you bring in learned people that would 'obviously' teach the village about how some creatures are safe, then your entire fvcking argument is null and void from the floodgate you just opened.

[RandomCasualty2]

Once you bring in learned people that would 'obviously' teach the village about how some creatures are safe, then your entire fvcking argument is null and void from the floodgate you just opened.

Not really, no.

There are only certain well known legendary creatures that are going to be known, as well as probably creatures that are friendly and close by. It's quite possible for instance, if you've got a large lizardman settlement nearby that over the ages your town would have learned that they're willing to trade and established relations.

But no town is going to know about every creature, and sadly the religious stories are going to go against monsters, because religion teaches you that majestic looking things, like angels, tend to be good, while monstrous looking things are demons and other things that will eat you. I mean that's actually where the prejudice starts, not a way to combat it. That and of course the anecdotal stories about how some big ugly green thing killed a farmer's relatives.

[virgil]

Bull. The stories are going to tell of about as many good creatures as bad ones, because religion tells you of the chosen ones and their enemies. The tales of the evil ones are easily as likely (if not moreso) to tell of the ones that were crossed off your list because they easily bypass the town walls from flight/teleportation/disguise or can't communicate enough to respond to questions of intent.

Yes, knowledge of some creatures as friendly/hostile will happen. That is the realm of specific settings to be decided ahead of time, and are not assumed to be in the precise ratios to make your argument the obvious and right choice.

Your hypothetical excuse is bad and you should feel bad.

I'm sure prejudices toward the unknown should exist, but there's a difference between prejudice/distrust and violent xenophobia, which is the entire point of this argument.

[Judging__Eagle]

Making the game setting a kitchen sink Sigil-copy is not all that and a bag of chips either though. Not everyone likes playing in such a setting, and some players might even be disappointed if no one shuns their evil-looking but good characters until they prove themselves.

Once everyone knows that a half-gold dragon human is, you know, because they've existed before your own 1/2 gold dragon human was even born; then no, that story is not one to be told. Everyone knows what a 1/2 gold dragon is supposed to be like.

I've played games in settings where specific races are almost always used as either "betrayer" or "monster" races; and "looking in-human" is not the critera that people will use in such a setting.

I'm going to use a larp that I go to as an example; it's a pseudo-medieval setting where there's a top-down enforced Feudal system, with laws and other bullshit. Drow are one of the PC races no one trusts (along with Orcs and Goblins).

While Minotaurs are members of the working class, and there is an actual in-game representation of minotaur PCs; while Drow PCs tend to get driven out of town, or murdered, by other players just for being their race and trying to approach town.

People will actually hunt and murder a dark-skinned PC with white hair that tries to enter town if the players know from experience that every fucking drow rip-off in the world is an evil villan just waiting to happen. Of course, a very courteous PC, or a very humble one might be able to get into the town, but your average "drow" is not going to be allowed into town if the majority of "Drow" are 'known' to be evil.

However, by the same token, if motherfucking minotaurs, you know, really strong and tough creatures with cattle-faces, fur, and horns are accepted parts of a society; then people will seriously give a new minotaur the benefit of the doubt. This is because almost every Minotaur you see isn't a shit-disturber that is going to kill PCs.

Granted, they might not be allowed into the tavern immediately, but that's a private establishment, and such places can make their own rules and such. However, they are allowed into the town's limits; because people in the setting know what is going on in their own damned setting.

Seriously, you have to make races get treated in a believable fashion based on the creatures that exist, and what their usual course of action is.

People in a setting where feathered serpents fight fiends is going to lead to people warily accepting a Coatl into town. It's weird looking, to be sure. However, you don't want to risk pissing it off, since it might be helpful and fight the next bunch of Orcs and Ogres that try to raid your farms or burn your nearest castle.


Frank's point on smell is a good one. People that eat low quality meat smell like shit. No, I'm not making this up. You really are what you eat, and it affects your body's smell as a result.

I'm barely a meat eater, and I notice the smell of people who eat lower quality, or excessive amounts of meat (by excessive, I mean.... once or more per day on a daily basis). It's in their pores, and in their breath. The smell of shit and foul meat. I know someone that's a long-term vegetarian, and they've been telling me for years that they can smell the stink of meat-eater on other people. I've only started to notice this myself in the last three or four years ever since I started cutting back on meat as well.

Meat-eaters smell bad. Meat-eaters of low quality meat smell horrible.

The Ogre that smells of carrion is a no-go since that smell is a tip-off that he eats meat that is past it's prime killing point (like the meat of fully grown humanoids).

While the Troll that is a known vegetarian, or only eats animals, is one that you'll have to grudgingly accept.


People will seriously give one an other the smell test; and talking like a person from the middle east; nose to nose; or kissing or hugging a new stranger is probably how people detect that an other person is a humanoid-eater or not.

Yeah, the town guard; he's going to demand a hug before you're allowed to even enter the gates. He's also going to surreptitiously get a whiff of you, and try to determine if you're a carrion-eater or not.

[RandomCasualty2]

People will seriously give one an other the smell test; and talking like a person from the middle east; nose to nose; or kissing or hugging a new stranger is probably how people detect that an other person is a humanoid-eater or not.

Yeah, the town guard; he's going to demand a hug before you're allowed to even enter the gates. He's also going to surreptitiously get a whiff of you, and try to determine if you're a carrion-eater or not.

JE that's by far the silliest thing I've ever heard.

As far as your other argument about people knowing various monster types, it's probably not going to happen unless such monster types are common, or deeply nested in local mythology. Lets remember that the D&D setting has a shitload of weird ass creatures, way too many for any one person to know, especially with an uneducated person's level of knowledge.

It isn't like you can just google up a bunch of creatures and see what they look like. What you know of monsters is pretty much from folk stories and maybe drawings. And given that a lot of those stories are going to be about adventurers killing some beast, or the boogeyman that terrorized a village, you're not going to get much good press that comes from monsterous stuff. So you probably don't know what a couatl is, but you've heard of a wyvern, and you may actually mix the two up if your stories were off.

I'm reminded of the Baldur's Gate quest where you were supposed to cleanse a group of "demons" from the mines... Those demons just turned out to be kobolds.

[God_of_Awesome]

Well, it still depends on the setting.

I'll take mine, since it's mine and therefore I am familiar with it. Goblinoids and drow are accepted into most villages of the general empire area where most campaigns take place, because they are seriously a normal part of that society.

Their isn't a shoot on sight policy for giants and kin but they are barred from entering small villages, because they are normally associated with the raiding barbarian tribes down south. Ogres may be able to pass as orcs but everyone down south can tell a troll is giant-kin.

Giants and kin are let into cities pretty freely though. Deep Dwarves, since in setting they have declared a holy war on the surface, are barred from cities and shoot upon identifying with villages. Of course, you have to identify it as a deep dwarf and not a hill or mountain dwarf, since the latter are alot more common and usually bearers of goods.

Beholders are about the only creatures with shoot on sight attached to them everywhere, although most villages will adopt a flee policy since a beholder is beyond their CR. And normally you just hope Dragons leave you alone.

You can, of course, take any of the above and rearrange as you please. Creatures will be nominally treated as reputation they have gained in your setting in whatever way to believe appropiate.

[A Man In Black]

Making the game setting a kitchen sink Sigil-copy is not all that and a bag of chips either though. Not everyone likes playing in such a setting, and some players might even be disappointed if no one shuns their evil-looking but good characters until they prove themselves.

"Evil-looking" is the LOTR baggage. There's no reason halflings look any less inherently evil than minotaurs.

You've seen Leprechaun, right?

[Username17]

I think fucking everyone can see the total fucking hypocrisy in RC's claim that villagers will necessarily be able to tell a Solar from a Frost Giant but won't be able to tell a Dragonborn of Bahamut from a Kuo-Toa. Moving the fuck on.

Making the game setting a kitchen sink Sigil-copy is not all that and a bag of chips either though. Not everyone likes playing in such a setting, and some players might even be disappointed if no one shuns their evil-looking but good characters until they prove themselves.

Oh absolutely. I actually resent kitchen sink settings on the grounds that there really isn't that much detail that you can go into for any of the races. Do Yurian have Kidneys? Where do Nezumi have their Knees? How about Gnoll Knees? Really basic shit about any of the races is completely unanswerable when you have a lot of them.

And it's not just biology that suffers. Anthropology, economics, liguistics, and all other forms of social science is watered down into nonexistence in the kitchen sink. Seriously, what o Hobgoblin slaves do all day? What do Drow think that other empires have a comparative advantage in producing (and thus, what good do Drow caravans return home with)? What is the kinship system in the local Orc tribe? How much Ettin can a native goblin speaker understand? How much Worg?

I would rather have four races that were written up with the depth of linguistics and history that Tolkien put into his stuff than to have dozens of races that each get as much backstory as a single Star Trek episode can spare. But as long as we're getting a kitchen sink campaign world anyway, I sure as fuck don't want the DM to horde all the cool looking bits to himself like we were in some bullshit Gygaxian hellscape. If we're saddled with have a world with 8 subraces of Goblinoid and more than a dozen flavors of Snake Woman, I want in. I'm paying the cost of the game not telling me how Kobold tails affect their posture while standing and running whether I can play on or not. I might as well reap the rewards of being able to play one.

Once you go kitchen sink you lose the ability to go into detail on anything. But you get the chance to get your hands on all that coolness of having fifty gajillion options - but only if you actually empower the players with the kitchen sink goodness and bring the cornucopia into the parts of the setting that the players are interacting with. If you want to design a non-kitchen sink game with just humans and goblins, I'm totally down with that. But if the DM is going to fill the dungeons with orcs, and joy stealers, and armands, and umber hulks, and drow, and hobgoblins, and myconids, and ogres, and minotaurs, and sahuagin, and whatever else, then the players should damn well get to experience cities and the party filled with all that crap too.

-Username17

[ggroy]

[RandomCasualty2]

Once you go kitchen sink you lose the ability to go into detail on anything. But you get the chance to get your hands on all that coolness of having fifty gajillion options - but only if you actually empower the players with the kitchen sink goodness and bring the cornucopia into the parts of the setting that the players are interacting with.

But the thing is that by not treating them any different, you're actually 4E-ifying the options to the point that everything looks the same. Honestly it doesn't matter if I'm a goblin, a kobold or a halfling, because the world you've created treats me the same. It doesn't matter if I'm a minotaur, a goliath or a human, because the world doesn't give a fuck.

At that point, I'm seriously not telling a story anymore. I'm playing Diablo II and my character is just a skin.... a skin the world entirely fucking ignores. I might as well be choosing from the thimble, the iron or the car. Regardless of what I pick, the game experience doesn't change at all, so my choice doesn't matter.

At least in Star Trek, the world actually treats Romulans and Klingons differently.

I suppose it's one way to discourage people from playing unusual races in that they get no recognition at all for being unusual beyond casual shrugs and apathy.

[A Man In Black]

But the thing is that by not treating them any different, you're actually 4E-ifying the options to the point that everything looks the same. Honestly it doesn't matter if I'm a goblin, a kobold or a halfling, because the world you've created treats me the same. It doesn't matter if I'm a minotaur, a goliath or a human, because the world doesn't give a fuck.

Except that racial descriptions give you some personality cues to incorporate or defy, and a number of special abilities (which could be cool if special abilities were actually special in 4e). Races work like in Star Wars, where they aren't particularly important but they are cool.

[K]

No offense guys, but this is a silly argument.

Crap-covered farmers will hate foreign things. If the Empire of the Black Blood are semi-peaceful trading partners who have caravans roll through town once in a while, the being an orc means you might not get more than spit in your food when your orc ass rolls into town.

If you setting has orcs living in the mountains and the only time they come down is to rape and pillage, then expect a pitchfork and torches mob even f you are rolling with famous heroes.

Basically, setting determines all. Don't pull any Aquinas natural law BS.... this is world of illusion and shapeshifting so the only rational position is "if its not related to you or you've know it for 20 years, keep it out.... and even then keep an eye out for glamours and werewolves."

[Archmage]

Point the first: Everything K said.

Point the second: I'm still trying to decide whether J_E's whole spiel about the smell of meat-eaters is more or less ridiculous than the time that he went on and on about how human flesh is hyper-addictive and laced with PCP.

Congrats, J_E, for almost managing to top yourself.

[Kaelik]

Point the second: I'm still trying to decide whether J_E's whole spiel about the smell of meat-eaters is more or less ridiculous than the time that he went on and on about how human flesh is hyper-addictive and laced with PCP.

Congrats, J_E, for almost managing to top yourself.

+elevendy billion.

[Koumei]

I can see no* flaws** with a security system that involves hugging everyone*** who wishes to enter. No**** flaws at all*****.

*"You hug the ogre. It bear-hugs you. You black out. The ogre eats you."
**"You hug the mind flayer. The last thing you hear is a slurping noise."
***"You hug the succubus. How many levels did you used to have, again?"
****"You hug the lich. You take negative energy damage and die."
*****"You hug the hamatula. <~DESTROYED~>"

[Cielingcat]

Point the first: Everything K said.

Point the second: I'm still trying to decide whether J_E's whole spiel about the smell of meat-eaters is more or less ridiculous than the time that he went on and on about how human flesh is hyper-addictive and laced with PCP.

Congrats, J_E, for almost managing to top yourself.

I mostly stopped reading his posts after he went on that rant.

[God_of_Awesome]

***"You hug the succubus. How many levels did you used to have, again?"

Worth it!

But seriously, I love kitchen sink fantasies. I have sentient undead as a character option, for starters.

[Psychic Robot]

Frank's point on smell is a good one. People that eat low quality meat smell like shit. No, I'm not making this up. You really are what you eat, and it affects your body's smell as a result.

I'm barely a meat eater, and I notice the smell of people who eat lower quality, or excessive amounts of meat (by excessive, I mean.... once or more per day on a daily basis). It's in their pores, and in their breath. The smell of shit and foul meat. I know someone that's a long-term vegetarian, and they've been telling me for years that they can smell the stink of meat-eater on other people. I've only started to notice this myself in the last three or four years ever since I started cutting back on meat as well.

Meat-eaters smell bad. Meat-eaters of low quality meat smell horrible.

The Ogre that smells of carrion is a no-go since that smell is a tip-off that he eats meat that is past it's prime killing point (like the meat of fully grown humanoids).

While the Troll that is a known vegetarian, or only eats animals, is one that you'll have to grudgingly accept.


People will seriously give one an other the smell test; and talking like a person from the middle east; nose to nose; or kissing or hugging a new stranger is probably how people detect that an other person is a humanoid-eater or not.

Yeah, the town guard; he's going to demand a hug before you're allowed to even enter the gates. He's also going to surreptitiously get a whiff of you, and try to determine if you're a carrion-eater or not.

There are no words to adequately convey my reaction to this post.

[RandomCasualty2]

***"You hug the succubus. How many levels did you used to have, again?"

Yeah but... those were levels well spent!

Totally worth it.

[God_of_Awesome]

But... but trolls aren't vegetarians.

[RandomCasualty2]

But... but trolls aren't vegetarians.

Dude.. of course they are... How do you think they got so green?

[K]

Point the first: Everything K said.

Point the second: I'm still trying to decide whether J_E's whole spiel about the smell of meat-eaters is more or less ridiculous than the time that he went on and on about how human flesh is hyper-addictive and laced with PCP.

Congrats, J_E, for almost managing to top yourself.

Well, he's not actually wrong. IF you have a very good sense of smell AND people are sweating heavily or don't bathe, you can smell roughly what they eat.

I have a VERY good sense of smell, and the Sikh temple I went to this weekend smelled like curry.

Japanese people in Japan smell a little like seaweed.

Vegetarians smell like vegetable farts.

Anyone who eats garlic smells like garlic, cuz that crap is super invasive. If you ever get bored, put some garlic in a bucket with some water and soak your feet..... within a half hour you will taste garlic in your mouth.

Personally, I find that vegetarians smell worse than the average American, who actually smells like butter. Vegetarians are just hyper-crazy about meat, so I can see how they get offended.

To be fair, I find that chicken eaters smell different from red meat eaters.

..... and the whole point in moot in 95% of life since we all like to bathe and most people have crap senses and there are always masking odors so its super hard to smell anything as faint as a person's personal scent. Its a rare day that even I notice anything.