The End of 4e D&D.

[ggroy]

[A Man In Black]

Don't forget that Watchmen was originally written to keep the imprints of a bunch of Charleston Comics characters that DC had ended up with the rights to alive. The Question, Captain Atom, Judo Master, etc. The story Moore wrote was so... final for the characters involved, that they changed the serial numbers and released a different and much more minor series to keep their trademarks to those specific characters.

Not quite. Moore made the pitch when he heard that DC had picked up the characters, but DC was already going forward with other plans to work the characters into monthlies, so they weren't interested in running them in a mini of any sort. This is one of those stories that has formed a life of its own, though.

[shadzar]

What I find funny is Dancey's line of thinking is exactly what made TSR go belly up.


The books kept referencing and trying to get you to buy others such a something depending on the need for the PHB1, but you get to the poitn where everyone figures out if you can't do it without the "core" (by the true definition), then you don't need the other stuff to go with it.

The problem is that when it comes to MM1, why should someone not hve all they need in Draconomicon and need MM1 to continue to use it?

Gamers have gotten over that stigma of needing X books to go with Y ones, and have realized that shit needs to be in an easier to find fashion, which led to DDi. Also why people want D&D wikis that could only be used for fluff and be a hell of a boon to the game and its sales of all related products. Cause they would have the RC for rules.

But you cannot have too many things reliant on one book, otherwise your model will fall fast once everyone has that book, or has copied out the parts they need from it.

You also can't make each new book dependent on the last under a model which makes books obsolete.

What would people think if PHB2, was the PHB 1, with jsut more stuff in it? Would the book be too big, or would people love it a much as War of the Burning Sky?

It would cut a lot of repeat and serve as a chance to errata thing in a previous copy, while keeping the material in one place, and adding to the value of the book without having to flip between them. Also then your new products could use PHB2 that is still in print as a reference for thing in new books.

Or better yet and PHB that is instructional, and let there be books like Martial Power (sticking with 4th design) that starts with all like fighter, etc in it?

Loosing my train of thought so will fix or answer questions to this tomorrow.

[ggroy]

[Lokathor]

Of the core books, I got a 3e PHB and then a 3.5 PHB and MM. My friend greg had a 3e DMG and MM, but not a PHB. I always just remembered the important magic items, and looked up the rare trinkets in the SRD.

[Meikle641]

I subsisted on the SRD for about half my D&D career. Then I progressively got a shitload of books. I'd like to think I've made up for it. Never would have played were it not for the SRD being around.

[Fuchs]

I bought the PHB, shortly followed by the DMG and MM, when they came out, and mostly kept up until the last years of 3E. I got mowst of the books in the end, or after they pulled pdfs though.

[FatR]

Wonder how many people just used the 3E or 3.5E D&D SRD, instead of buying the PHB.

I use SRD + net compendiums of stuff, because it is much more handy and convenient. Particularly when one introduces house rules. Not that I even had a choice when I was getting into RPGs. But later I bought the Monster Manual and a bunch of other books I liked, to support the game.

[Koumei]

Although I have the core books, I use the SRD for most things that one might use the core 3 for. Still, it's handy to have the core books for things like named spells (Bigby's Handjob etc.) and the handful of monsters (mostly Aberrations) that aren't covered by the SRD. Because creepy, squid-headed things that cause insanity and eat brains, hailing from unknown origins, are Original Character, Do Not Steal, amirite?

[kjdavies]

Wonder how many people just used the 3E or 3.5E D&D SRD, instead of buying the PHB.

3e, I bought the core books as soon as they were available. 3.5, I used downloaded (and reformatted) RSRD for a long time, until I got fed up with the binders of paper and bought the books.

During actual play I almost always have (at least one copy of) an electronic RSRD I can bounce around the entire content easily and quickly, rather than using the books.


Keith

[shadzar]

Wonder how many people just used the 3E or 3.5E D&D SRD, instead of buying the PHB.

d20srd.org aint it?

All I used. I don't like 3rd so wasn't about to spend money on it. The only reason I played was beause some friends wanted me to play and that is what they were using, so unless some odd book was needed, I used the SRD.

This is how the game should have always worked and something WotC did right with 3rd.

Take my favorite example, a board game. This is what most people play first. You don't have to by the rules separate, they come with the game. With (A)D&D for the most part the game was just rules. In several eras the game has been about accessories like minis, maps, tiles, dice...etc.

If D&D had always had something like the SRD, even without ability to use it by 3PP, then the game could have taken off a lot more and generated more money. Those people who just wanted the basics could use it for free, and others could skip the "core" books, and be more willing to buy extra stuff like books, minis, etc.

Take Gamma World or Hero Quest that has come up recently. You are paying for the work to make the game, but you have something for it...all the stuff to play with. When it comes to an RPG, you are dumping about twice as much for a group to play, where a board game like those ran/runs about $50 and an RPG over $100.

Many people don't feel an instruction manual for a game should cost that much when there are so many other things that cost less even to the point of being free for instructions. Board game replacement rules and instructions never did cost more than a buck or two plus SASE.

It really is like the MMO, where you buy the game, then can do nothing with it like EQ, where you couldn't even make a character without subscribing and connecting to the servers. So you feel as though you paid for nothing.

Now those 3rd starters with minis were on the right track. Here is a PHB with free dice and a box of Aberrations, I think it was. You felt like you were getting a game.

What makes it worse with an RPG and like an MMO, is that everyone must buy a copy of the game to play it.

This is where free basic rules would go a long way. Then they could add stuff like say more feats for 3rd, more powers for 4th in other books that have a cost.

I equate this to the sausage lady at the grocery store. She has her table sitting there and frying some links or patties and had bits of them on a tray for samples, so you can test it and then buy more if you like it. Hell where do you think drug-dealers got the idea from?

The most amount of money people spend today is not on things they need, but impulse buys, so that is where you target their wallets. Get them hooked with the free basic rules like an SRD that lets you play, and then charge them for the expansions to it.

Fighter, Wizard, Thief, Cleric a the only offered classes for free. Someone wants the bard, they buy the bard book, but everyone doesn't have to pay for the bard just because it was in the book when they don't even like bards.

I have so many accessories for AD&D it aint even funny. And TSR made it work before they got stupid.

Rather than dragging 8 books for your spells, just grab the spell cards and only bring the spells you have and use a book for any gained. Just use the cleric player screen (not for rolling behind but for reference) for your tables, and character creation. Keep it all in your little ABS plastic suitcase called a player Kit with your minis that you got all you needed to play a fighter except for paint and brush for the minis, and all less that the cost of the PHB.

Like all addictions, you have to give something to get people wanting more. 3rd did that and it worked. 4th is struggling with material bloat form what to put into books and what to shove into DDi.

The best ever product made for any edition of D&D was the AD&D core rules CD-ROM (2+exp). It was lacking in some functionality from a DM perspective, but unlike e-tools for 3.x had all the books there for you in 3 formats (Windows Help, RTF, HTML) on a 700 megabyte CD (2 for the expansion). You cold add anything in just about anyway you wanted save for those DM perspective things mentioned that didn't allow you to create items correctly, or didn't do a few calculations on some things. Otherwise it was 3 editions in one product. 1st, 2nd, and 2.5 (Players/DM Options)

I think I got lost where I was going, but the SRD was one of the smarter things to do and helped boost sales of 3rd because when it was found out, it got more people playing and sooner than later got them willing to spend money as opposed to forcing them to pay for something they may not yet like or have anyone to use with. They got hooked, and just needed to be reeled in after the SRD.

[Windjammer]

Take my favorite example, a board game. (snip)
Many people don't feel an instruction manual for a game should cost that much

Bad point of comparison in my estimate. Your standard boardgame rulebook is 12-15 pages at most (let's forget FFG and their tomes of excessive verbiage a la BattleLore). Once a ruleset is as labour intense and elaborate (in matters of pure page count) as most professional RPGs these days it's inevitable that the ruleset is charged money for. This isn't specific to RPGs, by the way. Take the most famous hex'n'chit wargame of all time, ASL. That rules binder is FREAKIN' expensive. And whereas minis are optional in (most) RPGs, hex-grid and chits aren't in ... hex'n'chit games.

That said, I largely agree with your assessment with respect to D&D (4E at least) - but would say that it'd have made more sense to sell the 4E PHB by way of a set of power cards and then that flimsy low-production-cost Rules Starter booklet WotC put into H1 and the 2008 Starter Set.

Fixed busted quote tag --Z

[A Man In Black]

Fix your quote tags, Windjammer.

[Windjammer]

My apologies - I usually check my postings after posting them precisely to safeguard against such formatting errors. Thanks to the moderator for helping me out this time!

[ggroy]

[Zinegata]

ASL is really more of an exception rather than the rule though, and quite frankly many boardgamers find ASL to be nearly unplayable. Sure, it's extremely detailed, but there comes a point when the level of detail becomes overwhelming.

The standard operating procedure for most wargames nowadays is to publish an online PDF version of the manual. This is highly sensible because often there is only one guy who has a copy of the physical rules, and the rest of the players have to read or print out the PDF copy. GMT games, which is arguably the most popular wargaming company today, publishes PDFs and even cyberboxes of all its games. MMP, the company that picked up the ASL franchise, publishes a PDF manual for most of its games. FFG likewise is a big fan of publishing PDFs.

The real problem though, is not how long the rules are, but how deep they are. A 32 page manual just doesn't have much room for depth whatever you do. ASL has a huge binder for its rules - but that's because it's trying to simulate every possible platoon or company level action in World War 2 - from iconic American paratroopers fighting German Panzer Grenadiers in 1944, to Dutch colonial troops taking on the Imperial Japanese Army in 1942. In contrast, a 32 page source book for an RPG is gonna run out of material very quickly.

[shadzar]

Take my favorite example, a board game. (snip)
Many people don't feel an instruction manual for a game should cost that much

That said, I largely agree with your assessment with respect to D&D (4E at least) - but would say that it'd have made more sense to sell the 4E PHB by way of a set of power cards and then that flimsy low-production-cost Rules Starter booklet WotC put into H1 and the 2008 Starter Set.

The problem is, rulesbooks for things CAN cost money, and people will buy them, take golf or bridge...BUT they are not the things you are buying. It isn't that you should pay for the rules, but the other things cost less more often and return a higher profit. Just look at the crap people bought that TSR put out. That crap was the selling point to get people into D&D and was like the advertisement books for 4th, Race and Monsters, etc.

It works, just not when you overdo it or do it wrong. The "core" game, like Gamma World would be the cheap introductory that lets you play for all time, and then you can get the expensive add-ons like with the 2008 starter, H1, whatever.

The reason I choose board game, over other games, is because unlike golf, you don't have to buy the clubs and have such a big place to play, and unlike bridge, the deck of cards isn't that much, but probably really closest for needed things like dice pencil and paper in regards to cost.

I was jsut looking at books games then to compare a game book as we know it, and to other books. Selling power cards would have worked and greatly cut the cost of the book, but then of course we know how corporations are. They want everyone to pay for everything. I would still prefer a single book or PHB per class. Here is Martial Power, it is ALL you need to play these classes with full instructions, but better would be if they gave the stuff missing from DDi like the "how to play", and then make the extra stuff up such as was done in the SRD.

I don't think there is a real good way or thing to compare to other than the SRD in this case. Standard Rules Document, if you will, and they could add anything else after, like the powers/spells/feats that they create at a cost, or you could make your own up. Those are the tings that take and make the most money anyway.

I hope this makes sense...Maybe this is their plan with the new Basic set...

@ggroy: the funny thing is, with so many people playing and using the SRD to play, WotC was still selling books to people or minis, or whatever. So this model had some good, I think the OGL just clouded it. Because other companies could repackage 3rd as their own game...aka Pathfinder. If the OGL didn't exist, then odds are 3rd would have done better.

@Zinegata: How many pages of rules is there really in a D&D book? Like all the PHBs, how much rules are in there when you take out the classes, spells, equipment, etc.

What is needed is the how to play the game, some example things like a spell or two, some weapons, armor, etc so you get the idea what is there, or a list like the Monstrous Manual and MC had to tell you how to make things yourself. No matter what things are published, people still want to make their own stuff. Give them those abilities up front, and not only do you make people more ready to paly your game, and maybe by your published weapons, spells, etc, but you make them feel comfortable you have a system in place to design things rather that just pissing in the wind and hoping it doesn't fly back at you.

You are saying ASL is like D&D in that it provides everything so you don't have to make anything up, and calls it "rules", but it if just stuff, not rules?

What is ASL?

[ggroy]

[Username17]

Wonder why exactly the OGL was done in the first place.

Because everyone who plays Castles & Crusades doesn't buy a D&D book. And everyone who plays D20 Midnight buys a Player's Handbook.

Back in the 90s, White Wolf was killing TSR. TSR ran out of money and sold themselves to Wizards of the Coast. The d20 OGL licence was brilliant. It meant that people making their bullshit fantasy heartbreakers could get extra exposure by making their stuff d20 compatible, and in return everyone who played any of those fantasy heartbreaker games was buying D&D books. It made a broad alliance of all the tiny publishing houses against the proprietary big name game systems.

And Vampire, the unstoppable juggernaut of late 20th century gaming, was driven right off the shelves.

And then 4e came along and they got greedy and they tried to shove all the minor publishers off the shelves by spamming huge amounts of in-house grindhouse material and making heir stuff proprietary again. And they didn't even get half the 3e audience to go along with it. Dropping the OGL was a bad idea. It made Mongoose revive Runequest as a gaming system and get people who play in Golrantha to not buy any D&D products.

-Username17

[ggroy]

[Lokathor]

Yeah, we might even have ended up a working (non-official) skill challenge system. "Quintessential X" books would also work quite well with how class-centric 4e is.

Sadly, like 3e and Tome, lots of 4e has to be adjusted heavily even at the "assumptions the game makes" level before you end up with something playable. At least, that I'd want to play.

[Zinegata]

Shadzar->

It's utterly retarded to NOT count classes, spells, and equipment as "rules". Much of what you can and cannot do as a character depends entirely on the rules-as-written for those sections.

Primary Resolution Mechanics are NOT synonymous with rules!

"ASL" stands for "Advanced Squad Leader", which is again the most comprehensive platoon/company level wargaming system that covers World War 2. The big reason for the massive rules binder is that it covers an awful lot of countries and situations - from Normandy bocages, Burmese jungles, to Russian steppes.

If you're going to boil it down to just the resolution mechanic then ASL is pretty simple - it's basically a standard wargame that combines chits, hexes, LOS, multi-phase turns, and CRTs. Those sections don't cover more than a few dozen pages, and it's what you get when you get an introductory Starter Kit.

However, if you want to expand the game to include tanks and artillery, or if you want to play somebody other than the Germans and Russians, then you'll need to pick up more and more rules as well as more and more expansions.

The problem is that while this is okay for a wargame (just by the core set and the theater you're interested in), it's totally NOT okay for an RPG. ASL revolves around individual scenarios. RPGs revolve around entire campaigns. A 32 page rulebook is fucking shorter than a lot of good individual adventures, how the heck are you gonna make it extend for a whole campaign? Throw goblins at the party seven times in a row?

[Windjammer]

It's utterly retarded to NOT count classes, spells, and equipment as "rules". Much of what you can and cannot do as a character depends entirely on the rules-as-written for those sections.

Primary Resolution Mechanics are NOT synonymous with rules!

True. But how about re-packagaing 4E in the M:tG fold, if non-collectible? The primary resolution mechanics (roughly 35 pages in 4E) would be a free PDF, and then players buy cards for their powers and character gear.

There are limits here, obviously. 4E would need to reduce the bloated quantity of material on races, paragon paths, and (especially) feats before such a model could work. Either that, or offer basically card sets for these. I'd really be happy if they did, especially for rituals.

[Username17]

It's utterly retarded to NOT count classes, spells, and equipment as "rules". Much of what you can and cannot do as a character depends entirely on the rules-as-written for those sections.

Primary Resolution Mechanics are NOT synonymous with rules!

True. But how about re-packagaing 4E in the M:tG fold, if non-collectible? The primary resolution mechanics (roughly 35 pages in 4E) would be a free PDF, and then players buy cards for their powers and character gear.

There are limits here, obviously. 4E would need to reduce the bloated quantity of material on races, paragon paths, and (especially) feats before such a model could work. Either that, or offer basically card sets for these. I'd really be happy if they did, especially for rituals.

You need to have an incredibly... unique... definition of "primary resolution mechanics" to make it fit into 35 pages. The combat chapter alone is 31 pages. The "How to Play" section is 8, Character Creation is 18, Power management and time gets 17, the skill system - skeletal as it is - takes 14 pages, and we still haven't gotten to the rule that tells you how much damage you do with a longsword.

Yeah, you can cut the lists for races and classes down. A lot. Since you're stopping at level 5, you don't have to put in most of that crap with Paragon Classes or suggested builds or multiclass options. You can just drop all that shit. A character class could be 2 pages instead of 12. No problem. But cutting rituals only gives you back 5 pages from the PHB's three hundred and twenty pages. You need to figure out how to cut that much space fifty eight more times. I'll give you 80 pages back in reducing classes to 5 levels of no-frill material. You're still not even a third of the way there.

The fact is that you cannot reduce 4e D&D to a 32 page manuscript without changing the rules. It just can't be done, because the rules were written to justify taking up a large number of pages.

-Username17

[shadzar]

@ggroy: the funny thing is, with so many people playing and using the SRD to play, WotC was still selling books to people or minis, or whatever. So this model had some good, I think the OGL just clouded it. Because other companies could repackage 3rd as their own game...aka Pathfinder. If the OGL didn't exist, then odds are 3rd would have done better.

Wonder why exactly the OGL was done in the first place.

I somewhat recall Dancey mentioned it but don't recall why. From a business standpoint and gamer standpoint I can see it for a few reasons:

1- Free advertising. Your game is out there, and people can use parts of it for free and get you some advertising. They eat some cost of R&D, and WotC could take and use what it wanted form the Open Content that each thing had to include.

WotC got a chance to mine for things form people without paying. Of Course, many people made thing that WotC couldn't use like NAruto, Trigun, and who knows what else.

2- T$R had made many people upset over D&D, and WotC needed lots of help getting it back and a PR gimmick to do that.

OGL was a ploy to make people think that WotC would act different form LW, and that things had changed.

3- Gamers wanted to and have always been making their own stuff for D&D, and would welcome a way to write their own adventures, items, spells, etc and sell them, legally, without some expensive license and royalties in order to share their work and effort with others, and like any writer, be abel to make some money from it...

Of course it had problems because it wasn't well though out like many other things WotC does and won't admit to because they just claim ignorance is not their because they are the Big Shots of gaming and they set the rules for the industry...

So the OGL tripped up the SRD by giving it away to people to make money from by making their own games that WotC couldn't use stuff from, and didn't support D&D, and even some that did were competing products with D&D and WotC own D&D products. This should have been something seen which I wonder how escaped the planning process of the OGL?

Wonder how things would have turned out if 4E D&D was made to be just as open as 3E/3.5E/OGL, with a useful SRD.

Ema's website would not have been shut down. There would likely be more products out there that would have fixed all sorts of thing people have been complaining about, long before WotC got around to half-assed fixing them.

4th edition might have some kind of economy, and skill challenges that work...