Why no 4e Classplosion?

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Why no 4e Classplosion?

Post by Username17 »

So we were all expecting it: the Classplosion. The functionally instantaneous jump from 8 supported classes to 108 supported classes. Everyone was sure it was going to happen. 4rries used its immanence to wave away 4e's primary flaws (that there wasn't nearly enough that you could do and the classes were so narrowly defined that you could actually expect more diversity of character concepts in My Little Pony or GI Joe). And while there were some people who dreaded the Classplosion, and some people who mocked it, I think everyone was just taken off guard by the fact that it just never happened. And seriously guys, why didn't it?

First off, let's talk for a bit about the two things that made the Classplosion obvious: it would have been very easy to do, and it was totally necessary. Seriously, when 4e dropped there were a lot of people who said "I'm going to wait until the X is released before jumping into the new system" and I think we can pretty much lay the fact that in its firs year of release, 4e did not gradually take over the D&D Hobby to the fact that the Classplosion never happened.

Why They Needed a Classplosion

A 4e class is just... really limited. They have some powers and stuff, and generally speaking most of them have a bit more depth than an AD&D Fighter (at least, until the AD&D Fighter starts getting magic items or an army and can pull off all kinds of crazy shit). But that's an individual character. The class is extremely limited. Paladins an't use bows, Rogues can't use maces, and so on and so forth. The range of characters that any class can manage is extremely limited - in many ways more limited than the AD&D Fighting Men.

Let's consider an incredibly simple set of units, like say those in Wesnoth.There are basically four unit types in the Rogue list: Footpad, Thug, Thief, and Poacher. Of those, only one can be properly represented in the 4e game rules as a "Rogue" (the Thief). The others use a blunt weapon or a bow and therefore cannot be using Sneak Attack. That's kind of silly, but that would totally be OK if, like in Wesnoth, the Thug, Footpad, and Poacher were all given their own classes. And while the Poacher can kind of be run as a Bow Ranger, the Thug and Footpad are simply unsupported. So what would the answer be? Make more classes. Obviously.

If you're going to have a Rogue Class that covers the Wesnoth Thief (and only the Thief off the Rogue Army list), that's actually kind of fine. There is no limit to how many classes you can have. Wesnoth, for example, has a different unit for a horseman with a lance (horseman) and a horseman with a sword (cavalryman). Doing that sort of thing is fine, if you cover all the options people want.

And yet, instead the designers kept turning to build options as if that covered ground. And first of all, it doesn't. Because many of the build options aren't real. The 4e design setup claimed that there were three builds for each class. Now, I know what you're thinking: "No. No there were not." And you're right. But here was the thinking they were using:
  • If you make two builds:
  • Stat A + Stat C
    and
  • Stat B + Stat C
    then you've already automatically created a third build. A hybrid that looks like this:
  • Stat A + Stat B
Or to put it another way, they seriously thought that making a Charisma/Constitution Starlock or a Strength/Charisma Paladin was a viable life choice. And it's not. It's not because if you balanced being a Charisma/Wisdom Grind Paladin and a Strength/Wisdom Tron Paladin then being the hybrid is definitionally underpowered - because if Bolstering Strike was OK laying on 4 temp hit points for the Grindadin it really isn't winning any fucking prizes handing out just 1 or 2 points for the Hybrid Paladin.

And so even before we get to the fact that Artful Dodger Rogues suck monkey ass and Tron Paladins don't even get a Level 9 power - we get to the fact that the number of builds that they thought they were making was just a lot less than the actual number. And when they produce a new build for Your Mom's Power, they may no be covering any new ground at all. And that's because first of all, a lot of those new builds aren't real either (like Virtue's Touch, what the hell is that supposed to accomplish?), but secondly, Ardent Vow and Virtue's Touch aren't any different from the normal build options. You take Ardent Vow as a Grind Paladin if you want to spend slightly more time doing damage and slightly less time healing people. Aside from the fact that the descriptive text inexplicably mis-identifies the characters who care as Tron Paladins, the fact is that your character isn't visibly different when they take Ardent Vow, they are still just a Grind Paladin. They are still armed with a sword and shield, they are still dressed in platemail, they still charge into melee and grind away from the relative safety of Turtle World. You haven't added any of the Wesnoth units to the list of characters that can be played.

So even before we get into the infinity billion magical character concepts that are not covered by the basic rules and call for and allow hundreds upon hundreds of new classes on the Magic side of things, let's just bring up the basic "Sims" view of warrior archetypes that are not covered by the basic rules and really need full classes to fill:
  • Small Character with a Reach Weapon and Heavy Armor
  • Small Character with a Reach Weapon and Light Armor
  • Whip User
  • Armored Archer
  • Crossbow Sniper
  • Armored Crossbow Sniper
  • Lancer
  • Wolf Rider
  • Whip User
  • Wrestler
  • Spear Skirmisher
  • Naked Heavy Weapon Wielder
  • Quarterstaff Fighter
  • Double Knife Fighter
  • Net and Club Fighter
  • Net and Trident Fighter
  • Fill in any exotic or fantastic weapon layout you can imagine (War Fans, Battle Spindles, Kuo-Toan Nutcrackers, whatever).
And so on. Basically any of them could be a 3e "Fighter," "Rogue," or "Fighter/Rogue" and be fine (at least at low levels). But in 4e, it needs a new class each time. And that's why they needed a Classplosion. They needed one because people wanted to play a guy who fought with a net and trident or they wanted to play a halfling with a spear and they couldn't because the 4e people never got around to writing up the extra classes to actually do that. And then people didn't want to play the game or buy the books.

Why a Classplosion would have been easy

Making a class that supports 3 different builds is kind of hard. You're making 3 Dailies at each level, so you have to make sure that each level has exactly one AB, one AC, and one BC power option. And it ends up making classes that generate pretty stale characters. Heck, look through the Bane Guard I put up on the D&D Wiki - it has a Cha/Dex build, a Con/Dex build and a Con/Cha build. So pretty much you get locked into just an option or two at every level once you start down the path. But of course, 4e didn't even do that with its original classes, so there's no reason to pretend that expansion classes should have to either. And when you're just making 2 viable builds, it's not even a problem.

So you make a Gladiator Class. You give it two options, one is Strength/Charisma and will be played by Dragonborn Bullysauruses. The other is Strength/Constitution and will be played by Orcs. And this is fine. You give a Charisma focused class feature package option that triggers off of fighting with a gladius and a shield. And you also give out a Constitution focused class feature package that triggers off of fighting with a trident and a net. And then you write at least one power at each level that each of those characters can use, and then then you write in some other powers, and two days later you are ready to send it to the editor. And you've just caulked two of the basic martial build cracks.

Literally, you could put an eight man dev team on this and get it all waxed out in about two weeks.

Now, that doesn't absolve them from the stupid inexcusable shit that was Paragon Classes. What the fuck, man? They did the Epic Destinies in a properly extensible and basically functional fashion (if woefully unbalanced and kind of boring). Paragon Classes just aren't interesting enough to bother writing four to eight of them for every damn class. It's a waste of time. They should just decouple the Paragons from Classes entirely. They don't give new weapon proficiencies in most instances, so really, who gives a shit? If your Razor Clerics end up wanting to take Pit Fighter, they should just do that. Which means of course that as you write up a half dozen or so Paragons in every book (one that uses each stat in the game as a primary), you have titanic Classplosion in available Paragoning as well. A few books down the line and you could actually look down your nose at the 3e crowd for having a system that limits player options.

So... why didn't that happen?

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Post by Vnonymous »

"Hey, these archetypes aren't covered in the game."
"Sure they are, look, there's a rogue class"
"But that doesn't cover sneaky people who use bows"
"Of course it does! They can use a bow if they want to"
"But if they do that then they're useless to the party"
"But in this edition, you don't need to powergame to have a viable character. Everyone is good enough to contribute."
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Post by Username17 »

So I suppose it is natural to ask what form the Classplosion should have taken. What classes should have been introduced, and where those classes should have been introduced. The answer of course: is all of them and everywhere. But that's just because classes move product and a 4e class is shit simple to write. There should of course be a priority to releasing and concepting classes, and that priority should be: fixing the massing fucking holes left in the PHB classes. And I don't just mean the "I want to play a sneaky guy with a mace, god fucking dammit!" I mean that the game is set up so that each class build uses two stats and each race gives two stat bonuses. Do you see where this is going? I thought you did.

So you'd have thought that with 8 races and 8 classes in the PHB, that they would have arranged it so that each race would be a perfect fit for a build in one class. Or if they were really clever, that each race would be a perfect fit for one build from two different classes. And you'd be wrong, because that would be way too fucking clever. In addition to forgoing obvious synergies (Tieflings excel at being Feylocks and suck at being Inferlocks, despite having supposedly come into existence by inventing Inferlocking as a thing to do), they managed to not even give out synergies to all of the races. And then they wrote up major builds that don't correspond to any of the PHB races. And they wrote up major classes (like Cleric) that only have builds that don't correspond to any of the PHB races, and to rub it in, they made some of those builds overlap on non PHB races!. So the Dualist Ranger, the Glaive Fighter, the Tronadin, and the Razor Cleric all are Strength/Wisdom, which corresponds to fucking shifters and none of the PHB races at all. So what are we left with?
RaceBuilds?
DragonbornHybrid Paladin (fake), Inspiring Warlord
DwarfNone
EladrinWandizard (incomplete)
ElfBow Ranger
Half-ElfStarlock (incomplete, also fake)
HalflingArtful Dodger Rogue (weak)
HumanNone
TieflingFeylock (weak)

What the fuck is that? I'll tell you what it is: it's a mandate to get off your ass and write some more classes so that there are some synergistic class options for Dwarves, that's what it is! They never should have gone live with such an obviously unfinished list, but once they did, the obvious response was obvious. They needed to throw down with some new classes right away that highlighted the abilities of the races they were trying to make Iconic.

Yes, they needed to bolster the Starlock and the Wandizard to be fully realized build options so that the Eladrin had something to do. But mostly they just needed to get off their ass and put new build options out there fast. They needed that Storm Sorcerer to be on the ground and in Halfling hands within a few months. They needed the Druid and Invoker out there in the hands of Dwarves right away. And they needed to make those classes not suck ass, but whatcha gonna do? Within the first three months, they should have had at least one, and preferably two actual respectable class builds in the hands of every single character race from the PHB.

As it happened, the major "rule" books they released in that period were:
  • Adventurer's Vault
  • Forgotten Realms Player's Guide
  • Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
That's slim pickings. But they had a fucking emergency on their hands: an emergency where they forgot to write a fucking reason to have a Dwarf in your party (there are still no Martial classes that synergize with Dwarfiness, a oversight I find puzzling). So what do you do? You write a Con/Wis class and you put it in the fucking Player's Guide! You write a Con/Cha class and you put it in the fucking Adventurer's Vault!

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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Do you really think that the game would've weathered a classplosion?

I don't think it could have, personally. It would've gone nicely the first half of a year, but when they would've started to reach into the realm of Treasure Hunter and Hexwarden and Axanite people would just start not Giving A Shit except for powergamers.

Remember, reading through a 4E class takes a lot of work. If you want to play a Warlock, for example, you have to read through the PHB and the Player's Guide to Faerun and Arcane Power. And probably hunt through Adventurer's Vault I and II along with the Player's Handbook II.

And that's fine and all, people in 3E did that too, but the thing is that in 4E you actually didn't get any system mastery out of looking through all of a class's powers. So when you spend .5-1.0 hours just browsing through Warlock crap only to turn it down, you need to do that again and again until you find a class you like. Now imagine having to do that eight more times.

Only a dedicated powergamer would be willing to do all of that.
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Post by Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp »

Another possible reason there weren't more classes is because of the power creep from each book. If the old classes weren't supported with new material and new material was instead given to new classes, people would find their Fighters, Paladins, Rogues, etc. obsolete.
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Post by Username17 »

Lago wrote:Remember, reading through a 4E class takes a lot of work. If you want to play a Warlock, for example, you have to read through the PHB and the Player's Guide to Faerun and Arcane Power. And probably hunt through Adventurer's Vault I and II along with the Player's Handbook II.
That is exactly why they needed to do a Classplosion instead of what they did. Yes, they needed to write in some extra Paladin and Warlock powers because they didn't actually put enough in to complete the established characters in the basic book. But that's all they needed to have done. There shouldn't have been any more Wizard powers in the PHB2 or Arcane Power, because the Wizard was playable as-is (well, maybe throw in a brief list of Wandizard powers because there weren't enough to make Wandizarding a viable life choice).

Rather than creating a whole set of Illusion keyword Wizard powers and sprinkling them hither and yon into four or five books, they should have just made an Illusionist class and expect Gnomes to go play that. You make new classes and you make them self contained, and that way people can actually use this fucking material.
Lago wrote:Do you really think that the game would've weathered a classplosion?

I don't think it could have, personally. It would've gone nicely the first half of a year, but when they would've started to reach into the realm of Treasure Hunter and Hexwarden and Axanite people would just start not Giving A Shit except for powergamers.
Whether it weathered a Classplosion or not, the fact is that it didn't weather not having a Classplosion. Yes, Classploding would have eventually worn peoples' patience. And people would have stopped buying books eventually. But failing to Classplode left them without covering enough concepts to get people to start buying books in the first place. If they had displaced 3e and sold books to all of the old 3e players and eventually petered out and had to start over that would be a much better position than they are in now. Not only would they have sold a lot more total books, but they'd currently be in a seemingly unassailable position at the top instead of being the potentially displaceable "2nd biggest RPG" that they are now.

But let's consider this from a release schedule and cross marketing standpoint. They wanted to have their big "roles" thing be a distinguishing feature. The idea was that you would be tactically covered if you grabbed someone to fill each role. And that claim doesn't even really matter if you only have 8 or 16 classes. But if you Classplode, you're covered. So let's go back and look at putting out a class for each role in each major book ("core" books and major setting suplements), and see how long it takes before we can figure out something for a class to do. Note: I am not counting repackaging (like the "Deluxe" PHB that came out 4 months after drop date) or the stuff you never fucking heard of like the Mirrorstone Presents series. Although honestly... there probably should have been Classplosion material there too.
BookMonthLeaderDefenderControllerStriker
FRCS2BardWarsmithRed WizardRashemi
Adventurer Vault3ArtificerTreasure HunterBounty HunterAlchemist
FR Player's Guide3Harper(Spellfire) AdeptDruidBarbarian
Martial Power5MedicSkirmisherScoutSniper
Draconomicon 15Dragon ShamanLancerDragoonSorcerer
Manual of the Planes6Planar ChampionGishConjurerSpellthief
Open Grave7NecromancerBane GuardSeerHunter
Dungeondelve8WhipMonitorGeomancerAssassin
PHB29Spirit Shaman
Favored Soul
Monk
Samurai
Archivist
Wu Jen
Duelist
Ninja
Arcane Power10ChannelerHexbladeIllusionistPyromancer
Monster Manual 211TotemistGiant SlayerTrapperAvenger
Eberron Player's Guide12Marked ScionWardenTinkerCorsair
Eberron Campaign Guide13MatriarchWarmasterMagewrightPasser
Divine Power13Rune PriestInquisitorInvokerShugenja
AV214TelepathForsakerGadgeteerSaboteur
DMG215MerchantGuardJesterThug
Primal Power16AugerSeekerEnchanterBeast Master
Draconomicon 217AvatarKnightWar MageThief
Plane Below18HereticSoulbornIncarnateChaos Warrior
Underdark19DefilerSoldierShadowcasterCurseborn
PHB Races: Dragonborn19Flame BrotherDragon SlayerIcharite
Martial Power 220EngineerMyrmidonHearthguardCavalier
PHB 321Battlemind
True Namer
Gladiator
Psychic Warrior
Ardent
Exterminator
Psion
Archer

Edit: Remember, a 4e class isn't equivalent to a 3e Class, or even to a Prestige Class. It's like a 2nd Edition AD&D Kit. If you didn't feel ridiculous having a penitent warrior Paladin Kit, there's no reason to feel at all weird about having a Penitent 4e class.
Last edited by Username17 on Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

I think the classplosion didn't happen for a couple reasons:

1. The designers thought classes were way more flexible than they really are/people don't care about character customization. After all, there are usually few choices in MMOs.

2. The 4rries decided to refluff everything, rather than get new classes. After all, 2d6+int damage isn't too different whether it's coming from a necromancer or a wizard.

3. The system is too damn limited to handle anything cool. Look at the Dark Sun thread, and the discussion of Dragon Kings. Look at the epic destinies - those just fail.
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Post by Orion »

Frank,

Spoilered a really long rant which I now realize is only marginally relevant. The point was that adding more RACES made there be FEWER viable 4E characters, the point being that it was better BEFORE every build had a race that went with it. But of course his point was that every RACE should have a CLASS that went with it, and I didn't and can't demonstrate that adding more CLASSES hurt anything.
The problem is, the PHB actually had more interesting and playable builds than you're giving it credit for--to the point where a lot of the early expansion material caused there to be *fewer* options. You've made the basis for your whole analysis the idea that only a race which adds to your A and B stats is playable, and in the early 4E environment that's just not true.

Expansion material made picking race much more of a no-brainer. They introduced
--more ways to add your prime stat to things, which made giving up a single point even more suicidal
--races which covered the A/B spread for every class
--racial feats in the X power series that threw more benefits to the already optimal races.

But in the PHB environment, none of that held true, and so your options were actually a lot more open. Let's take some case studies:

Wizards: The PHB didn't give you an INT/WIS race or even an INT/CON race for the theoretical staffizard build. It did give you INT/DEX, but wands kinda sucked. However, that didn't make wizards unplayable. They were pretty awesome from day 1, as I recall. So you had options.

--Human Wizard: you can't get an optimal second stat anyway; Wizards were one of the few PHB classes to get more than 2 at-wills you would want to use.
--Eladrin Wizard; the teleport and the free Stealth or Perception, plus wand synergy
--Elf Wizard; trade a -1 to your casting stat for an easier time qualifying for Arcane Reach, a bonus to your Orbing, and Elven Accuracy. This was playable.
--Tiefling Wizard: to-hit bonus with fire spells, against bloody targets, and fire resistance in case you want to walk through your own wall of fire.

Now I'm pretty sure Gnome Phantasmists blow everything out of the water.

Clerics

There was no STR/WIS or CHA/WIS race, but clerics were still awesome.

--Dragonborn Righteous Brand Cleric
--Dwarf Laser Cleric
--Elf Laser Cleric
--If they'd written more at-wills, Human would have worked.

I haven't looked at Kalashtar, but I assume they're now the only worthwhile laser race, since you can whore CHA so much these days.

Fighters:

PHB didn't give you STR/DEX, STR/WIS, or STR/CON. This meant your choices were

--Dragonborn Fighter: The CHA bonus is completely useless, since you'll be putting a 12 or something in WIS. But STR bonus, and the breath weapon synergizes.
--Elf Fighter: Yes, you give up +1 to hit. But you got Elven Accuracy, easier time qualifying for Polearm Gamble and heavy Blade Opportunity, faster movement. Fighters get to-hit bonuses from their class, don't need to hit to mark, and can get miss damage from scimitar dance.
--Dwarf Fighter: Again, you lose the to-hit bonus but get it back on combat challenge. Easier time getting to plate armor, ridiculous buckets of HP, better Hammer Rhythm damage, and protection form forced movement.

Adding more at-wills in martial power might even have made Human viable if they hadn't also dumped free bonuses on dragonborns and then rolled out goliaths and half-orcs. the total number of viable races didn't change though. When all swordmasters stopped being elves and started being half-orcs, the system didn't gain options.
Last edited by Orion on Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lokathor »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Remember, reading through a 4E class takes a lot of work. If you want to play a Warlock, for example, you have to read through the PHB and the Player's Guide to Faerun and Arcane Power. And probably hunt through Adventurer's Vault I and II along with the Player's Handbook II.
It's a lot of work because they were idiots. The AC and BC stat paths are fine, but everyone knows the AB path sucks. So each class is turned down to just two paths. Then, you list a class out and sort the powers into each class path. So you print the entire Tron Paladin path and then you print the entire Grind Paladin path. Make it clearly obvious which levels have 1 power option and which levels have 2 power options. Make it clear that you're locking yourself into mostly just being on a fixed power schedule. Classes become easy to read quickly, and easy to multiclass into and out of.

If each book just has new classes and extra powers for old classes just show up in things like Dragon Magazine, then it's really easy to read through a class and know almost everything you need to know about it just from the class section and the feat section from the same book. If you do want the extra juice, that's why you buy Dragon Magazine and have the DDI and all that. It's a win/win/win.
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Post by Orion »

Continued Frank-Bashing:

Your assertion that the "hybrid" builds are a priori underpowered is false.

A Class like Cleric, Paladin, or Warlock had powers based on A and powers based on B, both with rider effects based on C. You assertion, as I understand it, is that only A/C and B/C are viable, because if you don't crank the riders, you're choosing to do two things poorly instead of one thing well.

First of all, if the things that "A" and "B" powers do are substantially different, the increased flexibility might well be worth some diminishment in the effectiveness of individual moves. I think you could easily tweak things until people wanted to leave home as a STR/WIS cleric so they could have Righteous Brand *and* Sacred Flame. Unfortunately the more splatbooks you have, the more specialized feats, implements, etc. get so you can only do one thing well. But in the PHB I'm pretty sure STR/WIS cleric would be viable if there were a race with that stat spread.

CON/CHA Warlocks would also be viable if you just made CON powers consistently different from CHA powers. It could be as simple as CON powers targeting Reflex and CHA powers targeting Will. You could imagine giving up some rider effects in exchange for better save targeting.

Finally, I'd like to point out that the standard setup for, say, encounter powers are level 7 or whatever was.

--A Power, with C rider
--A power, with no rider
--B power, with C rider
--B power, with no rider

So actually, you have the same number of powers to choose from even if we assume powers with riders are NEVER worth choosing if you haven't maxed out the rider effect.
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Post by Orion »

Also, if you actually want race and class to feel like separate things, you HAVE to design in such a way that picking a race doesn't devolve to just stat mods. Which is a good argument for doing away with stat mods. I don't think anyone minds having races be only good at a limited number of classes, but a class is supposed to feel like a skillset or profession that isn't tied directly to one race.

If ONLY INT/WIS races can be wizards, well, either there's only one wizard race, or, more weirdly, there are multiple race with both Wizards and Monks, and multiple with both Assassins and Warlocks, or whatever, and so each race with the same stat mods fights with the same weapons and appears to share a culture. That's fucked up. So you have two options. If you want to pretend that race and class are conceptually distinct, it's okay for each race to only be good at three classes, but they can't overlap exactly with any race.

So:

Dwarves are allowed to be Barbarians, Clerics, and Artificers
Orcs are allowed to be Barbarians, Assassins, and Sorcerers
Tieflings are allowed to be Artificers, Sorcerers, and Warlocks
Devas are allowed to be Warlocks, Clerics, and Assassins

That kind of thing. I don't know how you'd make that work with 4E rules, but that's the only way you can claim with a straight face that classes and races are distinct.

---

The other alternative is to embrace the race-based paradigm, and merge that with the Roles thing. So The release schedule would look like this:

PHB
Humans: Warlord, Cavalier, Elementalist, Fencer
Elves: Bard, Bladesinger, Druid, Ranger
Dwarves: Runepriest, Defender, Geomancer, Berserker
Tieflings: Necromancer, Hexblade, Enchanter, Warlock

That's 16 playable characters, which is not much worse than the actual 4E PHB.

Then Monster Manual gets

Orcs: Shaman, Barbarian, Seer, Skirmisher
Kobolds: Dragon Shaman, Wrestler, Trapper,Sorcerer

Adventurer's Vault
Warforged: Adjutant, Bodyguard, Artillerist, Scout
Gnome: Artificer, Mole-Rider, Illusionist, Gunslinger

FRCS
Drow: Matriarch, Blademaster, Spidermage, Assassin

Divine Power
Devas: Abjurer, Paladin, Invoker, Monk

That kind of thing.
Last edited by Orion on Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Windjammer »

FrankTrollman wrote:And they wrote up major classes (like Cleric) that only have builds that don't correspond to any of the PHB races, and to rub it in, they made some of those builds overlap on non PHB races!. So the Dualist Ranger, the Glaive Fighter, the Tronadin, and the Razor Cleric all are Strength/Wisdom, which corresponds to fucking shifters and none of the PHB races at all. So what are we left with?
....
What the fuck is that? I'll tell you what it is: it's a mandate to get off your ass and write some more classes so that there are some synergistic class options for Dwarves, that's what it is! They never should have gone live with such an obviously unfinished list, but once they did, the obvious response was obvious. They needed to throw down with some new classes right away that highlighted the abilities of the races they were trying to make Iconic.

.... So what do you do? You write a Con/Wis class and you put it in the fucking Player's Guide! You write a Con/Cha class and you put it in the fucking Adventurer's Vault!
I'm thinking of a houserule to my 4E game. Which is basically that people slap any two +2 stat bonuses they want on whatever race they pick (replacing the extant bonuses that are in the race's book). Yes that's totally out of sync with the base idea that race bonuses are to be explained by god knows what (like, elves are intelligent) and what not. But basically I don't mind pulling some bogus rationale out of my back (like, racial bonuses don't represent racial bonuses but your biological make-up - as in, some specimens of any race are smarter than others, some are stronger, some are agile, and so on...). And I don't want to wait for WotC to write up races and classes that sync up nicely, and what's more, I don't want my players to make racial choice depend on 'favours the class I wish to play'. Short of that, do you think this would do the trick?

To mention something similary I've been thinking of... I want to boil down lots of 4E rules bloat to something shorter. E.g., a generic 'Divine Domain' feat:
Get a +2 to bonus to any one at-will of yours you choose permanently (becomes +3 at level 11 and +4 at 21), and get a +2 bonus on any skill you choose permanently.


Another instance would be all the weapon proficiency and implement choice mess-up, as in Frank's example above. I mean, seriously, why do you want to wait for WotC to write you a rogue variant which can use maces? Couldn't you basically let players pick 1 weapon proficiency at level 1 of their own choice (to replace the one that's written in the class book), and then rework the powers that assume the WotC proficiency with the one the player picked? (I for one never liked kicking all the 3.5 Tome of Battle classes into a narrow list of 'may use weapons on this list: 1, 2, 3, 4.' to begin with. Why are these proficiency restrictions in place AT ALL?)

Reason I mention these three things (racial bonuses to sync with actual class builds; generic divine feats; weapon proficiency choices) is... I'm not waiting for further rules proliferation from WotC. I want some generic ideas and then players do with them what they want. Racial bonuses and divine feats which THEY can configure, instead of that tired 'let's use WotC' drop-down menu to see which options are available/viable'.
Last edited by Windjammer on Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Orion wrote:If ONLY INT/WIS races can be wizards, well, either there's only one wizard race, or, more weirdly, there are multiple race with both Wizards and Monks, and multiple with both Assassins and Warlocks, or whatever, and so each race with the same stat mods fights with the same weapons and appears to share a culture. That's fucked up. So you have two options. If you want to pretend that race and class are conceptually distinct, it's okay for each race to only be good at three classes, but they can't overlap exactly with any race.
The very moment they made secondary stat mandates for class builds, they committed themselves to exactly this path. The fact is that there are only 15 two-stat combinations. By the time you've doubled the original race list, you've pretty much covered the entire possible list of stat modifiers. Or you would have if all the races weren't Dex/Cha.

If you wanted to have racial diversity in class assignment, you'd make each class build use only one attribute, allowing peoples' secondary attribute to be a side gig or baroque multiclass choice. But the fact that they put secondary stat riders into the game, and made the powers with secondary stat riders massively superior to the ones without, meant that there was never any chance of the game settling into any Nash Equilibrium except one in which there was a very short list of "correct" class assignments for any race, and further that the overlap of that list was going to be 100% with every other race with the same stat assignment. This was a foregone conclusion.

And the only way to have stopped that would have been to write new Classes that did not have secondary stat bullshit that added to anything. If they had gone that route from the beginning, then Dwarves would have been great Laser Clerics or Inferlocks; and Humans would be totally playable and respectable in every class. But they didn't. They wrote classes for the basic PHB that each demanded two stats to power any of the decent builds. And that locked them into the path of racism that you (justifiably) despise.

Honestly, I don't think anyone would really mind if writing Tiefling on your character sheet limited you to 1/3 of the playspace (only Charisma classes like Warlock, Bard, Sorcerer, Paladin or Int classes like Wizard, Assassin, Psion, or Warlord). But their intense worship of Dual Attribute Dependence cut it down even further to just 1/15th of the playspace for each race. And that means that even after my proposed Classplosion from 8 classes to 108 classes (with two builds each), a race still only has an average of about 14 class options. And some of them are going to be turkeys like the Artful Dodger or any of the Warlock variations.

DAD (Dual Attribute Dependence) was supposed to make everyone unique. But actually, it just makes everyone the same. And the fact that they never had a Classplosion means that everyone is like really the same.

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Post by ggroy »

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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

FrankTrollman wrote:So I suppose it is natural to ask what form the Classplosion should have taken. What classes should have been introduced, and where those classes should have been introduced. The answer of course: is all of them and everywhere. But that's just because classes move product and a 4e class is shit simple to write.
I'm not so sure that classes are all that marketable. While it's true a lot of people are waiting for a specific class, it's also true that a lot of people already have existing characters, so the introduction of a new class does them no good. If you've already got a sorcerer you like, you didn't give a fuck that Magic of Incarnum or The expanded psionics handbook came out. You are however interested in grabbing the spell compendium to increase your assortment of stuff you can do.

And that's the boat I think most people were in with 4E. I mean while a lot of players were disappointed that there weren't more classes, if they really wanted to play anyway, they just picked one that was available and worked with it. Now I could totally see at the time of launching 4E to have a shitload of class books. But I honestly don't see it as being all that profitable to gradually release them. Mainly because a lot of people are already currently in campaigns at that point and already have a character. About all your marketing to are those players who don't get the concept of a persistent character and want to make a new one every other session to try out the latest flavor of the month.

The problem is that while it's correct that 4E classes are easy to write, they also take up a lot of space. And that's just dead space if nobody wants to play that class. It's the 3E prestige class problem all over again, where you look through books like complete warrior and realize the only thing you give a shit about is the feats and the rest is just pretty much blank pages.

What they'd have been better off doing is having 1 class for each power source, dropping ability scores, and just saying that people can take any power from that source. That way you can totally release a book of martial powers, a book of divine powers and so on. And each book is going to market to at least 1/4 of your players by doing that. The class books just wouldn't have a big enough market to sell in and a powersplosion would be a lot better than a classsplosion.

The other problem with class books is quite simply that they show the shallowness of the 4E system. It's pretty depressing knowing that the bear warrior you took will really never get any new material ever and you will always have those same 4 powers to choose from at 1st level, all the time. A big deal with 4E too is that a lot of people thought that while a lot of classes were boring, that they'd get upgraded in the next "martial power" or whatever.

But 4E was just flawed from the beginning because they made the classes too narrow, and making things narrow has the problem of excluding players. If you're currently playing a cleric, any material that relates to powers of other classes is shit you just don't care about.
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Post by Username17 »

ggroy wrote:Maybe they're starting to run out of viable cookie cutters, for classes and races.

Wonder if they're going to start changing the power structures of classes around, such as exporting the augmented points systems (of some psionic classes) to the martial/arcane/divine/primal classes.
It's basically too late to guess what they will do to martial classes, because there aren't going to be any more of them. The remaining books are:
  • The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea
  • Hammerfast (a 32 page description of a Dwarven town)
  • Dungeon Magazine Annual
  • D&D Player's Strategy Guide
  • Player's Handbook Races: Tieflings (32 pages of Tiefling stuff)
  • Monster Manual 3
  • Vor Rukoth (a 32 page description of a ruined fortress)
  • Demonomicon
  • Psionic Power
  • Dark Sun Campaign Setting
  • Dark Sun Creature Catalog
  • Rules Compendium
  • Player's Handbook Races: Humans (32 pages of human material).
And that's... the end. From September on they aren't doing "D&D Rules Supplements" any more. From that point on they are launching "D&D Essentials" which is a new version that is stand alone. And Gamma World, which is also stand alone. And a series of D&D Boardgames that are also stand alone.

The point is that they are doing a reboot in September from which point the imprint will look like this:
Image
instead of this:
Image

And yes, even basic bullshit is getting ported over to the new imprint:
Image

So the question is not what will they do. That's decided. It's over and they are going to see how far they can drag things out selling intro box sets until they have a real new edition. They discussion is really only what should they have done instead to not get to this point. Or at least, not get to this point so quickly. They stopped soliciting new books for this edition within 15 months of initial release. That's pathetic. And I think the primary answer would have to be "Not released such a fucking trainwreck of disappointment for the main core books." But once they committed themselves to the PHB and DMG they went with, it's possible that they could have dug themselves out via classplosion.

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Post by ggroy »

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Post by Doom »

It's funny they never added a Dwarven feat:

Dwarven wise Strength: You can use your Wisdom modifier instead of Strength modifier for Strength based attacks.

And, just like that, dwarves that didn't mind paying a feat tax could be fighters or whatever.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

That would make for an interesting pit fighter.

[Edit] By "interesting" I mean 'the most powerful'. [/Edit]
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Post by Orca »

My guess is that whatever feedback they were taking note of on the first few extra classes was poor compared to the other stuff released, so Wizards decided to commission more other stuff and less classes.

That's the feedback that whoever was in charge was taking note of, not necessarily all feedback.
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Post by Username17 »

Orca wrote:My guess is that whatever feedback they were taking note of on the first few extra classes was poor compared to the other stuff released, so Wizards decided to commission more other stuff and less classes.

That's the feedback that whoever was in charge was taking note of, not necessarily all feedback.
But by not doing a Classplosion, they guaranteed that this is what they would hear. They released bonus powers for the basic eight classes in Forgotten Realms Player's Guide and again in Martial Power. Actual extra classes weren't released until the PHB2. And when they were released, extra basic powers were granted to the original classes at the same time.

Which means that by the time they got around to writing a single extra class, it was already "short" and had limited diversity of options compared to one of the original standard classes. If instead they had hit the ground running with extra classes hither and yon, then the new classes wouldn't be short, and the fact that the original 8 classes were incredibly poorly written would leave them as the unpopular ones in favor of the new material. Which should be fine for the folks at WotC, because they are actually selling the new material. For money.

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Post by Koumei »

Orion wrote: First of all, if the things that "A" and "B" powers do are substantially different,
I'm sorry, but we are talking about 4E, right?
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Post by Windjammer »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:I'm not so sure that classes are all that marketable. While it's true a lot of people are waiting for a specific class, it's also true that a lot of people already have existing characters, so the introduction of a new class does them no good. If you've already got a sorcerer you like, you didn't give a fuck that Magic of Incarnum or The expanded psionics handbook came out. You are however interested in grabbing the spell compendium to increase your assortment of stuff you can do.
That, and:

WotC are on record for leaving 'new' classes out in the cold soon after release. Check what happened to the new 'core classes' in the 3.5 Completes like the warlock or the wu-jen after their first release. They got rarely something new, and if it happened it happened in dubious places (e.g. Dragon Magic).

In short, classplosion makes impossible demands on a publisher to support all classes equally well. Only by keeping the number of new classes excessively small could a book like Arcane Power work, containing as it did material for all arcane classes, including the first generation (Wizard), second (Swordmage) and third (Bard).
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Post by Orion »

Frank, almost none of the PHB classes work the way you say they do. Let's go in order.

Clerics: Your prediction would be that STR/CHA and WIS/CHA are the only options, but in fact STR/WIS is quite common.

Fighters: doesn't follow the normal 3-stat set up. STR/DEX STR/CON and STR/WIS all get played.

Paladins: The 2 best at-wills don't have WIS riders. Few of the dailies do. And there are some decent enocunter ones that don't. A STR/CHA Paladin could walk out the door at level one with Valiant Strike, Enfeebling Strike, Piercing Smite, and Radiant Judgment feeling perfect fine with himself.

Ranger: STR/DEX is actually more common than STR/WIS, I think, as WIS riders are rare and AC is good to have.

Rogue: The powers that blind, daze, and stun generally don't have stat riders, but obviously you're going DEX/STR or DEX/CHA anyway unless there's some weird multiclass available.

Warlock: Only the encounter powers have INT riders, and not all of them. Star Pact gets actual to-hit bonuses for its pact boon and its paragon path, and several really good powers, making the starlock just as viable as the fiendlock IMHO.

Warlord: Okay, this class does have rider powers so awesome you'd sacrifice STR to get more INT.

Wizard: doesn't follow normal rules, but WIS Orbizards are clearly awesome.

So yeah, like 2 classes work the way you say they do -- maybe 4 if you want to count rogue and warlock.
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