Clarification on Two-weapon fighting.
Moderator: Moderators
Clarification on Two-weapon fighting.
Say I have a hand crossbow in my main hand, and a longsword in my off-hand, and I have TWF (the Tome one, duh) and Rapid Shot. I Rapid shot with my hand crossbow to get an extra attack. Since I got an extra attack with my hand crossbow, I'll be getting an extra attack with the sword too, right?
Rapid Shot wrote:You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
While you would have to use a full-round action to do this, according to the RAW, yes, you would get an extra sword attack. While I consider this kinda weird, that's what happens when you mix your metaphors by using Tome feats together with non-Tome ones.Tome TWF wrote:When you make an attack or full attack, you may make a number of attacks with your off-hand weapon equal to the number of attacks you are afforded with your primary weapon.
Everything I learned about DnD, I learned from Frank Trollman.
Kaelik wrote:You are so full of Strawmen that I can only assume you actually shit actual straw.
souran wrote:...uber, nerd-rage-inducing, minutia-devoted, pointless blithering shit.
Schwarzkopf wrote:The Den, your one-stop shop for in-depth analysis of Dungeons & Dragons and distressingly credible threats of oral rape.
DSM wrote:Apparently, The GM's Going To Punch You in Your Goddamned Face edition of D&D is getting more traction than I expected. Well, it beats playing 4th. Probably 5th, too.
Frank Trollman wrote:Giving someone a mouth full of cock is a standard action.
PoliteNewb wrote:If size means anything, it's what position you have to get in to give a BJ.
![Image](http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/12.jpg)
Given that most of the Core Feats and quite a few from the splatbooks were incorporated into the [Combat] feats, is there a game balance reason that the Rapid Shot - Manyshot chain was not converted? Looking at Two Weapon Fighting it's apparent that multiple attacks aren't seen as a problem, so was there some other reason that multiple ranged attacks was seen as undesirable?
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
The +1, +6, and +16 abilities of the blitz feat work with ranged attacks, and the +16 ability simulates Manyshot. Point Blank Shot has a "whirlwind" style option at +16. It seems that only Rapid Shot itself isn't available. Maybe they just don't like the "flurry" style effect as much? Or you could just take Rapid Shot and bulk it up into a Combat feat.
- Judging__Eagle
- Prince
- Posts: 4671
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada
Could you elaborate a little? I have a player who wants to take this Feat and I'd like to know if its likely to cause a problem.
Do you mean you can already do a Full attack to get more attacks? Before lvl 6 I can't see any way for a bow user to get additional attacks per round
Do you mean you can already do a Full attack to get more attacks? Before lvl 6 I can't see any way for a bow user to get additional attacks per round
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
- CatharzGodfoot
- King
- Posts: 5668
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: North Carolina
You can take any 3.5e feat you like in a Tome campaign (subject to any other house rules, of course). That's pretty much the biggest selling point of the series. The worst outcome is that you'll end up with a crappy feat like Weapon Focus rather than something kickass like Combat School.
So yeah, that means that you can take Rapid Shot. And by the wording of Two Weapon Fighting, you could use a ranged weapon as your primary attack to get an additional melee (or ranged) offhand attack. The basic ability of TWFing is pretty much the exact wording of Epic Two-Weapon Fighting from the D&D Joke Book.
Much like with Blitz, I might house rule my house rules (they're fucking house rules, do what you want with them). Tome TWFing + PBS + core Rapid Shot is hardcore, but I doubt it's actually borkn.
I still with Frank and K were a little more forthcoming with errata for 'obvious' things.
So yeah, that means that you can take Rapid Shot. And by the wording of Two Weapon Fighting, you could use a ranged weapon as your primary attack to get an additional melee (or ranged) offhand attack. The basic ability of TWFing is pretty much the exact wording of Epic Two-Weapon Fighting from the D&D Joke Book.
Much like with Blitz, I might house rule my house rules (they're fucking house rules, do what you want with them). Tome TWFing + PBS + core Rapid Shot is hardcore, but I doubt it's actually borkn.
I still with Frank and K were a little more forthcoming with errata for 'obvious' things.
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
If I'm not mistaken, there's generally distaste for flurry-type abilities because having to make extra attack rolls slows down the game. Frank has noted before that he's of the opinion that TWF should probably just give a to-hit bonus, but I'm not sure if that's the general consensus around here.
I think a flurry-type ability for bows is kind of logical, though, since you can't actually TWF bows and the -2 penalty for an extra attack as part of your routine is exactly the same as you'd get from appropriate use of TWF.
Also, how are you using rapid shot with a hand crossbow? You can't even full attack with a hand crossbow unless you have some way to reload it as a free action (which you can do with rapid reload, but you still need a hand free, and you don't have one if you've got a short sword in the other hand).
I think a flurry-type ability for bows is kind of logical, though, since you can't actually TWF bows and the -2 penalty for an extra attack as part of your routine is exactly the same as you'd get from appropriate use of TWF.
Also, how are you using rapid shot with a hand crossbow? You can't even full attack with a hand crossbow unless you have some way to reload it as a free action (which you can do with rapid reload, but you still need a hand free, and you don't have one if you've got a short sword in the other hand).
P.C. Hodgell wrote:That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
shadzar wrote:i think the apostrophe is an outdated idea such as is hyphenation.
Rapid shot is a bad thing because it's such a no-brainer. There's almost no situation you wouldn't use it, it's so powerful every archer has to take it, and it incentives stationary full attacks which make the game boring.
Furthermore, ranged attacks in Races of War are already doing just fine themselves. Rapid Shot was necessary in 3.5 to correct for the crushing inferiority of ranged attacks over melee. There just wasn't any way to get enough damage bonuses on your bows to stack up against a greatsword, and therefore there wasn't enough damage for bows to make rapid shot problematic.
Tome, however, gives substantial to hit and damage bonuses to PBS, introduces Blitz and Knight's Challenge as damage boosters, Monk Styles for ranged status infliction, and more. Rapid Shot is unnecessary and detrimental to the Tome environment.
Furthermore, ranged attacks in Races of War are already doing just fine themselves. Rapid Shot was necessary in 3.5 to correct for the crushing inferiority of ranged attacks over melee. There just wasn't any way to get enough damage bonuses on your bows to stack up against a greatsword, and therefore there wasn't enough damage for bows to make rapid shot problematic.
Tome, however, gives substantial to hit and damage bonuses to PBS, introduces Blitz and Knight's Challenge as damage boosters, Monk Styles for ranged status infliction, and more. Rapid Shot is unnecessary and detrimental to the Tome environment.
Self-Loading is a +1 magic ability.Archmage wrote:Also, how are you using rapid shot with a hand crossbow? You can't even full attack with a hand crossbow unless you have some way to reload it as a free action (which you can do with rapid reload, but you still need a hand free, and you don't have one if you've got a short sword in the other hand).
There's a problem with someone getting slammed inna face with a four-pound chunk of edged (but not very sharp) steel is likely to be injured more than someone poked with a four-ounce sharpened stick? If I had to pick between those two options, I think I know which I'd prefer.Orion wrote:Rapid shot is a bad thing because it's such a no-brainer. There's almost no situation you wouldn't use it, it's so powerful every archer has to take it, and it incentives stationary full attacks which make the game boring.
Furthermore, ranged attacks in Races of War are already doing just fine themselves. Rapid Shot was necessary in 3.5 to correct for the crushing inferiority of ranged attacks over melee. There just wasn't any way to get enough damage bonuses on your bows to stack up against a greatsword, and therefore there wasn't enough damage for bows to make rapid shot problematic.
Add in that the guy with the greatsword has to get within reach of the guy he's trying to disassemble, rather than hang back with the horses and the little children and whatnot, I saw no reason why Rapid Shot was needed for balance (though that may have been the stated purpose).
The archer may have felt small in the pants because he usually[1] did a little less damage per round than the guy with the balls to wade in and dish it out. He gets to hang back where it's safe, it seems a reasonable trade. Giving him damage dealing capacity close to -- or better, I've seen it -- the bastard with the fuckoff big sword swings things the other way.
At least in my experience; I haven't found many players willing to run PCs that wade in and deal death at close range if staying back and doing as much damage is an option.
[1] crits brought things a fair bit closer, at least until Str bonuses got really big
Keith
- angelfromanotherpin
- Overlord
- Posts: 9745
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
How about a quarter-ounce of dull soft lead, genius? Would you prefer that?kjdavies wrote:There's a problem with someone getting slammed inna face with a four-pound chunk of edged (but not very sharp) steel is likely to be injured more than someone poked with a four-ounce sharpened stick? If I had to pick between those two options, I think I know which I'd prefer.
Mass x Velocity squared; the velocity part counts for more. In pre-industrial society, high-velocity sharpened sticks killed more armored men than four-pound chunks of steel ever did.
I guess PBS does give a nice damage boost with its +1 ability. I was under the impression the +1 ability of Blitz was only supposed to work with Melee attacks, as the downside isn't a downside for ranged attacks and the +1 of PBS already does this. Won't it be a bit powerful to be able to stack PBS and Blitz?
Is there a similar reason that Spirited Charge doesn't have a Tome analogue? The +D6 damage from Blitz is kinda in the same vein but it doesn't enable Ubercharger builds like Spirited Charge.
Is there a similar reason that Spirited Charge doesn't have a Tome analogue? The +D6 damage from Blitz is kinda in the same vein but it doesn't enable Ubercharger builds like Spirited Charge.
- CatharzGodfoot
- King
- Posts: 5668
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: North Carolina
That's the reasonable interpretation of the rules, but it's not the only (or possibly even intended) one.Red_Rob wrote:I guess PBS does give a nice damage boost with its +1 ability. I was under the impression the +1 ability of Blitz was only supposed to work with Melee attacks, as the downside isn't a downside for ranged attacks and the +1 of PBS already does this. Won't it be a bit powerful to be able to stack PBS and Blitz?
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
Honestly? Probably the bullet. Unless it hits something critical, it's relatively unlikely to kill me. There's all sorts of places I could be shot without being killed. It'll hurt, but being hit at all solidly by a greatsword would probably fuck me up something fierce.angelfromanotherpin wrote:How about a quarter-ounce of dull soft lead, genius? Would you prefer that?kjdavies wrote:There's a problem with someone getting slammed inna face with a four-pound chunk of edged (but not very sharp) steel is likely to be injured more than someone poked with a four-ounce sharpened stick? If I had to pick between those two options, I think I know which I'd prefer.
Sure, if you can drop someone at a distance of course it's better and more effective and safer. That's why it's preferred. I would expect that as this became effective (bows got good enough) that it would come to outnumber the sword-inna-face kills. I don't see that this is necessarily because the bows do more damage per unit time (all else being equal), but that the bows get to do damage long before swords can be brought into play.angelfromanotherpin wrote:Mass x Velocity squared; the velocity part counts for more. In pre-industrial society, high-velocity sharpened sticks killed more armored men than four-pound chunks of steel ever did.
Keith
This is true. However, I understand that it's relatively difficult for a bullet to hit them because of the size of the wound channel (though with modern weapons it's easy to get a *lot* of wound channels, and with unmodern weapons you're unlikely to have access to good medical care).Crissa wrote:Strangely, humans are filled with critical parts.
-Crissa
Yes, a bullet can go right through your heart and kill you. A sword going into the chest at all is likely to do the same thing. Shoot someone in the arm he's got some problems; smash him with a heavy sword and he's likely to have very much worse problems. A bullet *might* break a bone, a heavy sword almost certainly will, or skid down the bone and try to peel some muscle off.
I'm not saying bows and arrows (or guns and bullets) aren't dangerous. They are in the long run even more dangerous than the heavy melee weapons because they can be used at range, without inviting the heavy attacks back (and you can usually get at least partial cover against the return fire).
However, I think 3.5 (even without Rapid Shot) has a decent model. The big melee weapons hit hard and tend to do some biggish damage (and may have more frequent crits, in the case of swords), while the ranged weapons do lower base damage but have a better critical modifier. They *can* do comparable damage, but the ranged guy hiding behind the tree doesn't need to be able to hit as hard each round -- unless the fight starts at immediate range, he gets to attack on more rounds anyway while the tank gets to the fight.
Even without Rapid Shot, 3.5 suits my sense of reality. With Rapid Shot, the tank gets the pleasure of feeling small in the pants because he's slower, pays more for his gear to get his AC up (heavy armor precludes Dex bonus, archer-dude gets Dex to attack *and* AC... including touch attacks, which the tank doesn't get to apply his armor to), and generally does comparable damage. In the event he finds someone to play with, he's probably going to be outnumbered in his position and get gangraped by the enemy because he's all by himself. And from a gamist perspective he deserves it because he chose a horribly suboptimal build (he should have pumped Dex and gotten a bow instead... and this leaves out the Int-or-Cha-and-cast-spells option which is an even better-known path to success).
Keith