[Tome] Speedened

The homebrew forum

Moderator: Moderators

Rejakor
Master
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:25 pm
Location: Like Wales, but New and South

Post by Rejakor »

The only broken use of shortening casting times on longer than full round spells is Minor Creation (Wooden Cage) and Major Creation (Adamantine Cage). Advanced learning could give them those spells. But to be honest, by the time it does, i'm fine with that.

Bard casting progression covers a multitude of sins, because at the time you can no-save put someone in an easily escapable cage, a wizard can no save maze you or gate in some dragons for good times. At that point, I just plain don't care if the medium BAB MAD class can full attack three times in a round, that isn't even a big issue for me.

Blitz:
+16:
  • You may make a Full Attack action as a Standard
    Action.
The /best/ melee build a speedened can be is Speedened 15/Fighter 5. You lose foil, but you can full attack a whopping 5 times on a move, or 6 times if you're standing next to them. Your BAB is 17, so you have those four attacks, and blitz, and we'll assume you went str and whatnot instead of int for speedened spells or whatever. You have blitz and shiz, so your speedening even works in antimagic fields.

Congratulations, you now dish out enough damage to kill the tarrasque in one round at level 20. Unfortunately, so does the wizard, even without being an incantatrix or using /any/ of the commonly used tricks. I don't even care. You've been a subpar speedened most of your life to set up this trick, and it isn't even a good trick.

I'm okay with a level 4 speedened being able to whirlwind attack twice. He doesn't have the feats or attributes to hit anywhere near as hard as the barbarian or fighter, if he's standing in melee he can get his little taps off and I don't mind.

Also Uber, you're missing the point of Blueshift. It's not to let the speedened do lots of things in a round (he still only has one move, one standard and one swift/immediate until 15th level). It's to let the Speedened do things that take other people a long time really fast. It's not to give him more screen time, it's to make him The Flash. Except in his own comics, The Flash isn't on the screen longer than anyone else in the JLA. But when he is on screen he does things that other people could do, but really fast. Like punching 50 bad guys at once. And that's why he's cool. Cause he does stuff other people take a minute to do, in seconds. And that's what Blueshift is for. Being a speedster. Not being some guy who gets extra actions.


So basically -> Melee builds using the speedster only really work at higher levels due to MAD and BAB. At higher levels I don't care. So i'm fine with Blueshift.

Casting tricks from advanced learning only work at higher levels, due to Bard progression. At higher level wizards have gate, scry, and greater telefrag. Suddenly, I don't care. So i'm fine with Blueshift.
ubernoob
Duke
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 12:30 am

Post by ubernoob »

I'm honestly not seeing a big balance issue (although there is potential for one to happen). My biggest thing is that blue shift requires you to think in odd ways because you basically have to reverse engineer your round. I mean, handing out extra actions does essentially the same thing but is a bit easier to describe.

Really, it's an ease of use issue I'm more concerned about. Blue shift as is requires wonky thinking and could slow down game play. Simply handing out extra actions would be better IMO.

Plus, I think the Speedened should have more "on the enemies' turn" abilities anyways.
User avatar
Vebyast
Knight-Baron
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:44 am

Post by Vebyast »

ubernoob wrote:I'm honestly not seeing a big balance issue (although there is potential for one to happen).
I'm actually really happy that I managed to get the class as well balanced as it looks like I did. I expected that the first four posts would be "There is no way that this is balanced, you need to completely delete half of his class abilities and his spellcasting".
ubernoob wrote:I mean, handing out extra actions does essentially the same thing but is a bit easier to describe.
The problem with handing out extra actions is that it doesn't exactly cover the "does things faster" quality of the character. It only lets you take more actions during a round, and doesn't let you (for example) do things that take minutes in a round. It also doesn't let you translate eventually nearly everything down to immediate actions, which was the entire point of the class. It also doesn't let you do things in combat that you shouldn't be able to do in combat, which was another big point.

For example, one of the original ideas was of a really evil Speedened duplicating Link's bottle fairy shtick using a jarful of pixies, a tiny desecrated altar, and the Dark Sacrifice rules from the BoVD. If the fight starts going really badly, you pull out your jar and your altar, compress the ten-minute ritual down to six seconds, and convert your pixies into an instant Unhallow. Weird crap like that wouldn't fit into the extra-actions-per-round system unless you also included a way to concatenate actions, which would be kind of nightmarish.
ubernoob wrote:My biggest thing is that blue shift requires you to think in odd ways because you basically have to reverse engineer your round.
This class is already going to be really hard to play. Consider the fact that this class has zero effective direct attack options. Your entire point as this character is to dance around back with the enemy's casters, using slide to dodge enraged golems and taking AoOs whenever someone casts. He also requires really creative problem solving and very quick thinking, given that the vast majority of the his task is to disrupt other peoples' actions, and fighters and good archers don't provoke AoOs.
ubernoob wrote:Really, it's an ease of use issue I'm more concerned about. Blue shift as is requires wonky thinking and could slow down game play. Simply handing out extra actions would be better IMO.
I think that extra actions would actually be harder to keep track of, actually. When all you're doing is advancing actions, you just have to remember that you can do stuff faster, and then everything else is as normal. When you actually get more actions, you have to keep track of them. It would be like spells per day, but every single round.
ubernoob wrote:Plus, I think the Speedened should have more "on the enemies' turn" abilities anyways.
Yeah, it would be nice to give it a few more dedicated low-level abilities. At around eighth level, the Speedened starts being able to cast some of his abilities as immediates, he can move as an immediate, and he can slide a useful distance (25'), but before that he's pretty limited.

Some options:
  • Give him Blueshifts per round, and decrease the free, automatic ones. Since it would be less granular, the Speedened could get started earlier, and it would progress more smoothly. Since the Speedened could concentrate his discretionary blueshifts onto a single action instead of having them automatically spread out, this would also let him start doing things as immediate actions a lot sooner (at the expense of doing things faster on his own turn). It would also work out really well with the fatigue system that TarkisFlux proposed. However, the class would get unbalanced at higher levels, and getting everything to agree with the capstone would be somewhat difficult.
  • Give him the ability to use blueshift to fit things into AoOs.
  • Partially or fully restore his slide distance for the round whenever he makes an AoO.
  • Give him the ability to use Speedened spells as AoOs.
Rejakor
Master
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:25 pm
Location: Like Wales, but New and South

Post by Rejakor »

Give him some monkeywrench and 'dodge shit' style abilities.

Pepper the lower levels vigorously with them.

Stuff that you wouldn't use at higher levels except to fill a dead action, but that adds horizontal power to the class.
User avatar
Vebyast
Knight-Baron
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:44 am

Post by Vebyast »

Rejakor wrote:Give him some monkeywrench and 'dodge shit' style abilities.
These would all probably be useful for too long, but some random ideas:
  • Defensive Awareness: When taking a full defense action, you may additionally concentrate on responding more efficiently to threats nearby. Within the square you declared the full defense action in and any squares touching it (edges and corners), any sliding done while taking the full defense action does not count against the distance you can slide during that turn.
  • You Move Like They Do: you may spend a standard action to prepare yourself to to dodge a ranged attack made against you by a single enemy. If that enemy makes any ranged attack action against you, you may expend slide movement to give yourself a +1 to your armor class against that single roll per five feet expended. If you expend all of your slide movement for that round you fall prone after the attack is resolved.
  • Dust Trail: When you take a run action, until the beginning of your next turn, any square bordering the ground that you occupy immediately becomes filled with dust kicked up by your rapid passage. These squares behave as if filled with Obscuring Mist, as the spell. These dust clouds settle in one round per Speedened level.
  • Duck and Weave: By spending a move action and expending all of your remaining slide movement for this turn, you become a confusing blur of impenetrable movement. Until the beginning of your next turn, you gain a miss chance with percentage equal to the amount of of slide movement you expended in this manner.
  • Judo: If you slide immediately following a successful trip attempt, you may take the enemy that you tripped with you, depositing him in any square adjacent to the square you end your slide in.
  • Hey, Over Here!: You attempt to distract enemies, safely provoking attacks of opportunity from them in hopes of catching them off-balance. By expending five feet of slide movement while in a square adjacent to an enemy, you may provoke an attack of opportunity from every enemy that threatens you, all of which automatically miss.
User avatar
Vebyast
Knight-Baron
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:44 am

Post by Vebyast »

More ideas:
  • Snatch: a speedened can attempt to grab spell components, arrows, or similar small objects held by an adjacent target as an immediate action. The target makes a reflex save (DC is 10+speedened's reflex save bonus); if they fail, the speedened ends up holding the item, and the target's action fails.
  • You Missed: Using their speed and reflexes, a Speedened may cause enemies to accidentally hit their allies with ranged attacks when they miss the speedened. Whenever a ranged attack against a Speedened misses, the speedened may use an immediate action to roll a reflex save, the DC of which is the armor class of the new target against the attack. If this save is successful, the attack hits the speedened's target instead of simply missing.
Rejakor
Master
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:25 pm
Location: Like Wales, but New and South

Post by Rejakor »

  • Snatch: a speedened can attempt to grab spell components, arrows, or similar small objects held by an adjacent target as an immediate action. The target makes a reflex save (DC is 10+speedened's reflex save bonus); if they fail, the speedened ends up holding the item, and the target's action fails.
  • Hey, Over Here!: You attempt to distract enemies, safely provoking attacks of opportunity from them in hopes of catching them off-balance. By expending five feet of slide movement while in a square adjacent to an enemy, you may provoke an attack of opportunity from every enemy that threatens you, all of which automatically miss.
These are fine as written. They're useful and thematic and add very little power to the class since they are so situational. Snatch is something they already should have had. It eats an immediate action and the target gets a save. Not to mention that they can already do this using the disarming or pickpocketing rules at higher levels of blueshift - this just writes it into the class.
  • You Missed: Using their speed and reflexes, a Speedened may cause enemies to accidentally hit their allies with ranged attacks when they miss the speedened. Whenever a ranged attack against a Speedened misses, the speedened may use an immediate action to roll a reflex save, the DC of which is the armor class of the new target against the attack. If this save is successful, the attack hits the speedened's target instead of simply missing.
If you want to give Deflect Arrows, give Deflect Arrows. Then turn this into Reverse Arrows, i.e., if the speedened deflects an arrow he can send it at someone using the person who originally fired it's attack and damage bonus (plus any special abilities, if applicable), so basically redirect the attack. Presumably by dodging in front of them as it was fired and then stepping out of the way. Level 8 would be a perfectly reasonable time to get a free Reverse Arrows, and Level 4 would be a perfectly reasonable time to get a free Deflect Arrows. As the feat, though, one per round, no reason to go crazy.
  • Judo: If you slide immediately following a successful trip attempt, you may take the enemy that you tripped with you, depositing him in any square adjacent to the square you end your slide in.
This is useful, I guess. I'd prefer it if you could choose to move or move them, but people won't mind since it looks thematic.

Dust Trail is..interesting, I guess, for roadrunner style smokescreens. Definitely a situational thing. Why have you limited it to the run action? A Speedened zigzagging through a room filling it with dust is exactly the sort of thing we want to see, don't we?

Duck and Weave needs to be at least 3 times slide expended before I ever care about it all, but then it should simply be given as a benefit if you want to give it. If Speedened get a miss chance it should simply be a number given out at a certain level. Giving it out with slide is weird and doesn't really work well.

You Move Like They Do is nice in theory, but in practice is only something you care about if you are a high level speedened who has worked on AC and even then you don't care unless it's a disintegrate, cause that's the only single ranged attack I can think of that I would want to spend my slide and fall prone to dodge. Even then, the bonus is so small, and you have to burn a standard->move->whatever action to ready yourself to dodge anyway. You should be able to whip out a neo-like matrix dodge, but this is not that. I feel like you should be able to burn 5' of slide movement to dodge an arrow or magical touch attack. Just..dodge it. And hell, another 5' of movement to reflect that attack onto someone else. I also feel like the Speedened should get twice the slide movement it does. I don't really have any basis for this, but it feels like it would work.


As is, Speedened can dodge melee attacks, via slide. They can interrupt spellcasting with immediate actions. This is a class built with turn by turn resources that they use up to stay alive, a defensive master built around negating enemy attacks. They need: a way to negate, bypass, or ameloriate, archers. They need: a way to go and stand next to spellcasters (even a speed increase, jesus). You also need to clarify that a speedened can use slide to step out of LoS of an archer to avoid an arrow, but that sliding 5' to an adjacent square also in full view doesn't save them from the arrow shot(if you're sticking to the current slide rules and not turning it into an attack negating resource).
User avatar
Vebyast
Knight-Baron
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:44 am

Post by Vebyast »

Rejakor wrote:
  • Snatch: a speedened can attempt to grab spell components, arrows, or similar small objects held by an adjacent target as an immediate action. The target makes a reflex save (DC is 10+speedened's reflex save bonus); if they fail, the speedened ends up holding the item, and the target's action fails.
  • Hey, Over Here!: You attempt to distract enemies, safely provoking attacks of opportunity from them in hopes of catching them off-balance. By expending five feet of slide movement while in a square adjacent to an enemy, you may provoke an attack of opportunity from every enemy that threatens you, all of which automatically miss.
These are fine as written. They're useful and thematic and add very little power to the class since they are so situational. Snatch is something they already should have had. It eats an immediate action and the target gets a save. Not to mention that they can already do this using the disarming or pickpocketing rules at higher levels of blueshift - this just writes it into the class.
Added.
Rejakor wrote:
  • You Missed: Using their speed and reflexes, a Speedened may cause enemies to accidentally hit their allies with ranged attacks when they miss the speedened. Whenever a ranged attack against a Speedened misses, the speedened may use an immediate action to roll a reflex save, the DC of which is the armor class of the new target against the attack. If this save is successful, the attack hits the speedened's target instead of simply missing.
If you want to give Deflect Arrows, give Deflect Arrows. Then turn this into Reverse Arrows, i.e., if the speedened deflects an arrow he can send it at someone using the person who originally fired it's attack and damage bonus (plus any special abilities, if applicable), so basically redirect the attack. Presumably by dodging in front of them as it was fired and then stepping out of the way. Level 8 would be a perfectly reasonable time to get a free Reverse Arrows, and Level 4 would be a perfectly reasonable time to get a free Deflect Arrows. As the feat, though, one per round, no reason to go crazy.
It's phrased weirdly so that it applies to every ranged attack instead of simply arrows. Since the Speedened's method of "deflecting" arrows is to actually dodge them, it also makes sense that it wouldn't matter what's being "deflected". Also, that would provide a measure of defense against snipers that are using scorching rays rather than arrows, which is the real problem. It doesn't really matter anyway, given that I'm adding the "burn slide to matrix move" feature.
Rejakor wrote:
  • Judo: If you slide immediately following a successful trip attempt, you may take the enemy that you tripped with you, depositing him in any square adjacent to the square you end your slide in.
This is useful, I guess. I'd prefer it if you could choose to move or move them, but people won't mind since it looks thematic.
Yep. One reason to keep it as is is to keep the rules simpler and clearer. Another is, as you say, thematic: the Speedened isn't throwing the guy. The Speedened is tripping him, then using his raw speed to move the guy fifteen feet between him losing his balance and him hitting the ground. Anyway, I've added it as it is here, and if someone else complains I can change it.
Rejakor wrote: Dust Trail is..interesting, I guess, for roadrunner style smokescreens. Definitely a situational thing. Why have you limited it to the run action? A Speedened zigzagging through a room filling it with dust is exactly the sort of thing we want to see, don't we?
Well, once a Speedened starts getting blueshift, he can take that run action and then some move actions, plus any sliding he does during that turn. At higher levels of blueshift the Speedened could take multiple run actions per round, or take one run action to start it and then keep going using more move actions. I've added it, with a slight change: it can be activated by a double move as well as a run.
Rejakor wrote: Duck and Weave needs to be at least 3 times slide expended before I ever care about it all, but then it should simply be given as a benefit if you want to give it. If Speedened get a miss chance it should simply be a number given out at a certain level. Giving it out with slide is weird and doesn't really work well.
Yeah, this one and You Move Like They Do seemed a bit off.
Rejakor wrote: You Move Like They Do is nice in theory, but in practice is only something you care about if you are a high level speedened who has worked on AC and even then you don't care unless it's a disintegrate, cause that's the only single ranged attack I can think of that I would want to spend my slide and fall prone to dodge. Even then, the bonus is so small, and you have to burn a standard->move->whatever action to ready yourself to dodge anyway. You should be able to whip out a neo-like matrix dodge, but this is not that. I feel like you should be able to burn 5' of slide movement to dodge an arrow or magical touch attack. Just..dodge it. And hell, another 5' of movement to reflect that attack onto someone else. I also feel like the Speedened should get twice the slide movement it does. I don't really have any basis for this, but it feels like it would work.
Yeah, I can certainly see that mechanic working (burn slide to just plain dodge stuff). It also feels a lot more Neo-action-hero, which is definitely the intention.

The real problem with the Speedened is that I don't have any ability to playtest it as part of a party. I don't know how well his slide budget is balanced because I can't get a real DM-versus-player interaction going. You've been doing this longer than I have, though, and he always seemed a bit short on slide budget, so I'll trust your intuition.
Rejakor wrote: As is, Speedened can dodge melee attacks, via slide. They can interrupt spellcasting with immediate actions. This is a class built with turn by turn resources that they use up to stay alive, a defensive master built around negating enemy attacks. They need: a way to negate, bypass, or ameloriate, archers. They need: a way to go and stand next to spellcasters (even a speed increase, jesus). You also need to clarify that a speedened can use slide to step out of LoS of an archer to avoid an arrow, but that sliding 5' to an adjacent square also in full view doesn't save them from the arrow shot(if you're sticking to the current slide rules and not turning it into an attack negating resource).
These are very good points.

Negate archers: Agreed. I think I'll add the "burn slide to dodge arrows" feature, and increase the slide budget to 5ft/charlevel.

Standing next to spellcasters: Blueshifted moves to get close, then slide to finish closing the distance. The Speedened is meant to cover an entire group of casters, not just one. The original idea that generated slide was getting into the middle of a unit of casters and then using Slide to move close enough to taken an AoO whenever one of the casters did anything. It would be easy to give out a speed increase, though, and I might end up doing that for theme anyway.

Slide out of LoS: Added.
DSMatticus wrote:There are two things you can learn from the Gaming Den:
1) Good design practices.
2) How to be a zookeeper for hyper-intelligent shit-flinging apes.
Rejakor
Master
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:25 pm
Location: Like Wales, but New and South

Post by Rejakor »

Faster: All of your listed modes of movement improve by 15', and you gain 5' of slide movement per two character levels. This ability may be taken multiple times and its effects are cumulative.

MANDATORY CHOICES ARE BAD.

MANDATORY CHOICES ARE BAD.

MANDATORY CHOICES ARE BAD.


-Rejakor


EDIT: Mandatory choices are bad. :(
Last edited by Rejakor on Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Vebyast
Knight-Baron
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:44 am

Post by Vebyast »

K. Decrease to 10' flat bonus on the slide movement, maybe?
DSMatticus wrote:There are two things you can learn from the Gaming Den:
1) Good design practices.
2) How to be a zookeeper for hyper-intelligent shit-flinging apes.
Rejakor
Master
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:25 pm
Location: Like Wales, but New and South

Post by Rejakor »

a) Give more Speed Tricks, including 2 speed tricks at level 1.

b) What happened to giving 5' of slide movement per character level?

c) "Faster: All of your listed modes of movement improve by 15'" is perfectly fine for Faster.

d) As written, You Move Like They Do and Faster are mandatory choices for all Speed Tricks you get given. Possibly Whoa, at your 4th or 5th Speed Trick slot. Mandatory Choices are bad, and should either be removed, rebalanced, or given as class abilities. You Move Like They Do in my opinion should be a class ability given at level 2. Whoa should be a class ability given at level 4. And you should write more speed tricks.

*cracks whip*
User avatar
Vebyast
Knight-Baron
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:44 am

Post by Vebyast »

a) I'm worried that if I give him too many speed tricks he'll end up overpowered. On the other hand, I look at the the ToV Soldier (take two) thread and I don't worry about being OP any more. The real problem is that I want to have more speed tricks available than I give out, so that Speedened have some variety. Additionally, giving out any speed tricks at first level would make it too good as a dip; a one-level dip into Speedened would then give a Rogue Contrail, for example.

b) That doesn't kick in until integrated slide at 6th level. Before then, the Speedened is still a viable primary melee combatant (his inferior BAB, spellcasting, and hit dice haven't quite kicked in yet), so I was trying to keep his power down until then.

c)

d) Moved Whoa and You Move Like They Do out to actual class features, yeah. Those are kind of important for staying alive. I'm not sure they're balanced for 2nd and 4th, so they're in at slightly higher levels. I'll keep adding speed tricks as I have ideas for them.
DSMatticus wrote:There are two things you can learn from the Gaming Den:
1) Good design practices.
2) How to be a zookeeper for hyper-intelligent shit-flinging apes.
Rejakor
Master
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:25 pm
Location: Like Wales, but New and South

Post by Rejakor »

a one-level dip into Speedened would then give a Rogue Contrail, for example.
And i'm okay with that. Seriously, how is that even overpowered? Rogues need a way to hide. They have needed that for something like eight years. Wizards take out entire rooms of foes from first level, why is a rogue doing 1/3rd level d6 per attack to one target overpowered? Wizards get to be actually invisible from 3rd level, rogues get to make a check against an opposed check so that someone doesn't know where in a dark room they exactly are.

The only problem with speed tricks was that they are supposed to be minor 'tricks' and when you first wrote them up one of them was 'faster'. Contrail and the rest of them aren't overpowered, and most of them use Slide as a resource, which you only get with more levels in the speedened class. This class isn't dippable in the slightest.


I can work with you move like they do at 4th level (serious?) and whoa at 8th. It's not ideal, but I can work with it. However Integrated Slide should be available from level 1, and speed tricks also. Crossbow plinking is lame when you're a caster, and melee plinking is lame when you're a roguelike (which the speedened is). Saying that a class should be plinking for 6 fucking levels is a bit too much to stomach. The speedened should have options and abilities that are useful from level 1, and it should always have options and abilities that are useful, all the way to level 15. Sure you can outgrow level 1 abilities (although true mastery is in making them still situationally useful), but if at any point in it's progression a speedened has nothing to do with it's actions, then you need to rewrite at least that part of the class so it has something to do.

Oh, and I figured out why I thought this class should have ranged shootdodge and missed me! and slide 5'/level - because their spells aren't a resource, they're a nuke. The main focus/resource of the class isn't spells. They're a sideshow. Therefore the only real 'resource' the class has is a round by round resource: slide. So it should a) get decent amounts of slide, enough to do stuff with and b) options to do stuff with slide. a) is currently in integrated slide form and b) is speed tricks. Right now a 1st level speedened gets more AoOs and a couple of cantrips. And that's sad. If a class has a point, it should come online at level 1. Worried about dips? Scaling. It's this magical thing where an ability starts off shit and gets better as you take more levels in a class! Since slide refreshes every round, it gets better the more you have of it. Even though 5'/class level looks linear, it's actually exponential because you're less likely to run out each round the more you have of it. Speed Tricks need to be good enough to make up for using up slide (precious, precious slide) but not so good that they are mandatory takes. They are there as an OFFENSIVE measure. This means that being a speedened is mostly about splitting up slide between offensive and defensive measures, and throwing in spellcasting to shore up gaps, and ALL of this allocation is mitigated by the amount of actions you have in a round, which means this is a highly tactical and 'puzzle-solving' class since it basically turns combat into a puzzle and gives you several tools to dissect it. But to do that you need a) slide and b) speed tricks, which you get basically none of with the way this class is currently written. Furthermore, while some Speed Tricks should be passive, some should also be active, to further emphasize the 'attack/defense/ paradigm of slide.


Also, why do speedened wear leather armour? Why not just give them bardarmour? Is there a problem with them wearing armour?


-Rejakor
User avatar
Vebyast
Knight-Baron
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:44 am

Post by Vebyast »

You make quite a few good points. Enough so that I'm starting to think it's time for a scratchbuild. It's at the point where I would tell another programmer "your codebase is bloated, you need to start over.", so that's probably what I'm going to do.

Current plan:
  • Slide as the central class feature, as you suggest.
  • Possibly switch to limited sphere access instead of casting. I'll have to think about this.
  • Way more speed tricks, hopefully on par with the number of blueprints the gadgeteer has. Suggestions would be awesome if you have any.
DSMatticus wrote:There are two things you can learn from the Gaming Den:
1) Good design practices.
2) How to be a zookeeper for hyper-intelligent shit-flinging apes.
Rejakor
Master
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:25 pm
Location: Like Wales, but New and South

Post by Rejakor »

I actually like the rest of the class. It just clicks when I realize that the spells are a secondary resource, like with the actual Bard class.

Well, there's points for and against rebuilding. If you do rebuild, i'd ask that you keep the bard spellcasting and blueshift in. Possibly force them to prepare spells or make the spells known list slightly smaller, though.


-Rejakor
User avatar
Vebyast
Knight-Baron
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:44 am

Post by Vebyast »

Rejakor wrote:Well, there's points for and against rebuilding. If you do rebuild, i'd ask that you keep the bard spellcasting and blueshift in. Possibly force them to prepare spells or make the spells known list slightly smaller, though.
Yep. I'd be keeping Blueshift exactly as it is and taking one or two spells off the list (things that I'd be duplicating with Speed Tricks). The real point would be to shuffle around all of the minor secondary abilities, like evasion, improved slide, and reflexes, possibly replacing a few of them with slightly more interesting Speed Tricks that do the same thing. For example, I'd replace evasion with a choice between three speed tricks: one that auto-makes the save, one that moves the speedened away from the area, and one that moves the area away from the Speedened.
DSMatticus wrote:There are two things you can learn from the Gaming Den:
1) Good design practices.
2) How to be a zookeeper for hyper-intelligent shit-flinging apes.
Rejakor
Master
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:25 pm
Location: Like Wales, but New and South

Post by Rejakor »

Hmm, I like all of those.

Post up what you have soonest, and i'll gap fill. Gap filling is one of my better talents, and there's no point creating something out of whole cloth if you've already got a bunch written up.
User avatar
Vebyast
Knight-Baron
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:44 am

Post by Vebyast »

Here's what I have so far. I'm leaving the original up so that you can compare them directly.


LevelAbilities
1Opportunism, Spellcasting, Slide Movement, Slide, Speed Tricks
2Advanced Learning
3You Move Like They Do
4Blueshift 1
5Integrated Slide
6Whoa
7Reflexes
8Blueshift 2
9
10Improved Reflexes
11
12Blueshift 3
13
14
15Precognitive Planning



All of the following are Class Features of the Speedened class:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Speedened are proficient with non-exotic light weapons and ranged weapons. Speedened are proficient with light armor and shields. If a Speedened wears heavy armor, they lose all of their class abilities except for their spellcasting. Speedened are subject to arcane spell failure chance if wearing medium or heavy armor.

Opportunism (Ex): Speedened are able to take advantage of any opportunity they see. They make make any number of AoO's per round.

Spellcasting: The Speedened is a spontaneous arcane spellcaster with the same spells per day progression as the Bard. A Speedened casts spells from the Speedened Spell List (below). A Speedened automatically knows every spell on the Speedened spell list, and can cast them without preparing them ahead of time, provided that spell slots of the appropriate level are available and unused. A Speedened cannot cast spells while flat-footed. A Speedened's caster level is equal to his class level.

To cast a Speedened spell, he must have an Intelligence score at least equal to 10 + the Spell level. The DC of the Speedened's spells is Intelligence-based and bonus spells are Intelligence-based.

Slide Movement (Ex): Speedened are so blindingly fast that they can even do things while it is not their turn. A Speedened has a pool of "Slide Movement", which they can expend to interrupt others' actions. Most uses of Slide are free actions at any time; Speedened can even do things like wait until a Wizard declares the target square of his Fireball before choosing how to use his Slide Movement. A Speedened has five feet of Slide Movement per round per Speedened class level; this improves to five feet of Slide Movement per character level when they gain Integrated Slide later. A Speedened's Slide Movement replenishes at the beginning of his turn. Speedened may not expend Slide Movement while flat-footed until they gain the Reflexes ability later.

Note that attack rolls and damage rolls occur simultaneously, so Speedened must choose to use their abilities before attack rolls are resolved.

Slide (Ex): The most basic use of Slide, and the ability from which it takes its name, is the ability to move. By expending 5' of Slide Movement as a free action at any time, a Speedened may move 5' by any means for which they have a listed movement speed. For example, a Speedened with a land speed could expend 10' of Slide Movement to instantly translate 10', moving himself out of the area of a Fireball. Sliding does not allow a Speedened to dodge targeted attacks, but it does allow him to void preconditions such as range, area inclusion, or line of effect. For example, a Speedened being attacked by an archer could not move out of the way once an attack roll has been made, but could move to break line of effect so that the archer could not target him. In general, Speedened may Slide out of areas of effect and may void preconditions, but it's too late once a roll has been made.

A Speedened provokes attacks of opportunity as normal while Sliding, although he may also make tumble checks to suppress attacks of opportunity as normal.

Speed Trick (Ex): At every level, the Speedened gains one ability from the following list:
  • Snatch: a Speedened can attempt to grab spell components, arrows, or similar small objects held by an adjacent target as an immediate action. The target makes a reflex save (DC is 10+Speedened's reflex save bonus); if they fail, the Speedened ends up holding the item, and the target's action fails if it was employing that item.
  • Hey, Over Here!: You attempt to distract enemies, safely provoking attacks of opportunity from them in hopes of catching them off-balance. By expending 5' of Slide Movement while in a square adjacent to an enemy, you may provoke an attack of opportunity from every enemy that threatens you, all of which automatically miss.
  • Contrail: When you begin a run or double move action, until the beginning of your next turn, any square you occupy immediately becomes filled with condensation clouds formed the shock of your passage. These squares behave as if filled with Obscuring Mist. These clouds disperse after one round per Speedened level.
  • Defensive Awareness: When taking a full defense action, you may additionally concentrate on responding more efficiently to threats nearby. When in the square you declared the full defense action in and any squares adjacent to it (edges and corners), you may use your Slide ability without expending Slide Movement.
  • Defensive Mastery: The area affected by Defensive Awareness expands to any square adjacent to its original area (any square touching any square touching your original square).
  • Faster: All of your listed modes of movement improve by 15'.
  • Air Dodge: You may Slide as though you had a perfect fly speed listed. This ability does not allow you to negate falling damage. If you try to do that the DM gets to hurt you (more than the falling already would, that is).
  • Ground Dodge: You may Slide through earth, clay, sand, etc as though you had a burrow speed listed. You do not leave a tunnel behind you. Note that if you end your movement inside, say, a rock, you get what you deserve.
  • Pop: Once per round as a free action, you may spend up to 10' of Slide movement to teleport an equal distance, as Dimension Door. You must be able to cast Dimension Door to take this speed trick.
  • Double Team: Whenever you slide or move out of a space, you threaten enemies as if you were in that space until the beginning of your next turn.
  • Dive for Cover: You may spend 5' of Slide Movement to automatically succeed on any single reflex saving throw against an attack that deals half damage on a successful save. If you have Quicken 2, you may spend an additional 5' of Slide Movement to avoid the attack entirely.
  • Surf the Shockwave: If you are subjected to an area attack which allows a reflex saving throw for half damage, you may spend 10' of Slide Movement to attempt to have the power of the effect carry you to its edge without hurting you. Make a Balance check against the DC of the effect's reflex save. If you succeed, you move to the nearest edge of the effect and you take no damage. If you fail, nothing happens, and you automatically fail the reflex save to avoid half damage.
  • Deflect: If you are within 5' of the origin of a non-conical area of effect, you may expend Slide Movement to deflect the effect. For every 5' of Slide Movement that you spend, you may move the origin of the effect up to 10' in any direction. If you are within 5' of the origin of a conical area of effect, you may expend Slide Movement to change the direction of the cone by 45 degrees per 5' expended.
  • Block: If a line of effect passes within 5' of you, you may choose to block that line of effect with yourself, causing it to hit you or your square instead of its original target. For example, you could intercept an arrow, taking damage as if it had hit its original target, or you could intercept a Fireball, causing it to detonate in your square.
  • Standing Still: Your incredible speed and precision make you able to see through an opponent's dodges and parries as if they didn't exist. You may spend 10' of Slide Movement to make your target flat-footed against one attack you make against them before the end of your next turn.
  • Facestab: Your speed allows you to take perfect opportunities in combat. Whenever you make an attack, you may expend Slide Movement to add bonus damage to the attack at a rate of 1d10 damage per 5' expended. This ability can't be used against things immune to sneak attacks.
  • Keyhole: You have all the time in the world to line up shots. You ignore any concealment less than total, and you may fire into melee without penalty.
  • Mirror Image replacement
  • Produce Flame replacement
  • Gust of Wind replacement
  • Invisibility replacement
  • Spelltrail: Whenever you generate an AoE, you can trail it behind you as you move
  • Judo: If you Slide immediately following a successful trip attempt, you may take the enemy that you tripped with you, depositing him in any square adjacent to the square you end your slide in.
Advanced Learning: At every even-numbered except first, a Speedened may add any single spell to their Speedened spell list. This spell must be of a level he can already cast, and must be from the Cleric, Druid, or Sorcerer/Wizard spell lists.

Blueshift (Ex): Speedened simply move faster in every way. Every action that the Speedened takes may be moved one step to the right in the following list. If an action does not fit cleanly into one of these categories or takes longer than ten minutes, use the DM's best judgment. Something that is already an immediate action remains as an immediate action, although in ludicrous circumstances (an immediate action reduced by four steps, for example) the DM may make a custom ruling.
Ten minutes --> One minute --> Full-round --> Standard action --> Move action --> Swift action --> Immediate action

Blueshift 2 improves this action so that the Speedened may every action by two steps. For example, they could reduce full actions to move actions, allowing them to take two full run actions per round.

Blueshift 3 is an even further improvement, allowing the Speedened to reduce every action by up to three stages. The third stage of reduction is a supernatural ability.

This ability does not apply to spellcasting not gained as part of the Speedened class, nor does it apply to spell-like abilities. You also don't get to try to break the game using Runestaffs or crap like that. If you do, the DM gets to hurt you.

This ability does not work while the Speedened is flat-footed.

Speedened with this ability may converse at length as a free action, although some limits still apply (DM's judgment).

You Move Like They Do (Ex): You may cause a single ranged attack to miss you by spending 5' of Slide Movement. For example, a Speedened could expend 15' of Slide Movement to cause three Scorching Rays to automatically miss.

Integrated Slide (Ex): The Speedened has learned how to integrate his Slide not only to the techniques specially adapted to Speedened combat, but to all of his actions instead. The amount of Slide Movement he gets per round is now based on his character level instead of his class level.

Reflexes (Ex): The Speedened has sped up so much that they can react before they physically should be able to. The Speedened can now expend Slide Movement while flat-footed.

Whoa (Ex): The Speedened moves fast enough that they can trick the eye into misplacing them for a split second, and the Speedened is fast enough that this split second is enough. When a Speedened uses You Move Like They Do to evade a ranged attack, they may expend an additional amount of Slide Movement to cause that ranged attack to retarget itself on something nearby. The Speedened chooses a valid target for the attack within 10' for every 5' of Slide Movement they expended, and the attack is treated as if it had been originally targeted at the new target.

Improved Reflexes (Ex): As their reactions approach physical impossibility, Speedened become able to react to events before they happen. A Speedened with this level of ability is never flat-footed and is never denied their Dexterity bonus.

Precognitive Planning (Su): A Speedened of fifteenth level gains a limited grasp of the immediate future, allowing them to optimize their movements' efficiency as well as their speed. A 15th-level Speedened may make three Swift or Immediate actions per round.


Speedened Spells:
0th level: Daze, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand*, Prestidigitation*, Detect Magic, Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Cure Minor Wounds
1st level: Grease, Sleep, Command, Sanctuary*, Entangle, Obscuring Mist, Produce Flame, Shield*, Summon Monster I, Color Spray, Magic Missile*
2nd level: Hold Person, Pyrotechnics, Suggestion*, Silence, Resist Energy, Gust of Wind*, Protection from Arrows, Fog Cloud, Web, Scorching Ray*, Mirror Image*, Invisibility
3rd level: Dispel Magic*, Protection from Energy, Daylight, Fireball, Wind Wall, Major Image*, Gaseous Form, Blink, Invisibility Purge*, Stone Shape, Sleet Storm, Spike Growth
4th level: Greater Dispel Magic, Dimension Door*, Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Resilient Sphere*, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Rainbow Pattern*, Dimensional Anchor, Dominate Person
5th level: Mislead, Persistent Image, Greater Command, True Seeing*, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud, Dismissal, Wall of Stone, Feeblemind, Wall of Force, Telekinesis*, Control Winds*, Teleport
6th level: Antimagic Field, Disintegrate, Wall of Iron, Banishment, Harm*, Heal*, Irresistible Dance, Project Image*, Greater Shout

*: When cast by a Speedened, this spell is treated as if one step of Blueshift has already been applied to it
DSMatticus wrote:There are two things you can learn from the Gaming Den:
1) Good design practices.
2) How to be a zookeeper for hyper-intelligent shit-flinging apes.
User avatar
Vebyast
Knight-Baron
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:44 am

Post by Vebyast »

Newest version is up. Still only have 23 speed tricks; I'm still trying to come up with ideas for at least 30.

The only thing I'm really unsure about with that one is "Hide in plain speed"; specifically, how much Slide Movement to make it cost.
DSMatticus wrote:There are two things you can learn from the Gaming Den:
1) Good design practices.
2) How to be a zookeeper for hyper-intelligent shit-flinging apes.
Post Reply