The World of Warcraft hate thread.

[Zinegata]

WoW isn't actually that addictive. It's not like people being addicted to it were shining stars getting more people to follow them or something better was being done.

My point was that complaining about WoW is even worse than playing it. But it's not the first time a point has gone over your head...

-Crissa

And you're complaining about people complaining about WoW. Hence, "ironic".

Shouldn't you be off "creating" something instead of ranting like you said BTW?

[Judging__Eagle]

For anyone who once played it, and is hasn't played in a while. It's decidedly different. A player can seriously grind raid-level gear, by getting badges from every single one of the "normal" bosses in the 5-man dungoens. Gone are the days where only a 10-man group was the way to upgrade your gear past a certain point.

Now, a character can be geared well enough to deal with even the end-game raids; without really having to have done a lot of raiding on their own.

I've noticed this while playing my Druid off and on over the last 3 months. Some weeks I'd play, some weeks I wouldn't. My gear might be a 'bit' better if I had played more, but w/e, I have my caster gear high enough to join guilds that raid the end-game stuff (as well as everything else lower tier).

The feeling of going into a raid that you have never been to before, and being disappointed at the Raid Boss loot is freaking weird.

It's like killing a dragon, and finding out that the magical boots you got by trading in the souls of murdered lower end boss monsters are better than this giant dragon's treasure drop boots.

Honestly, I'm glad about it. It makes being able to progress at your own pace really easy. You don't need to be in a raiding guild, to be able to improve your own gear at your own pace. A raiding guild just makes it faster. I greatly prefer this method, over the previous method of "if you aren't raiding, you aren't going to get better PvE gear after a certain point, tough shit".

On leveling up to 80 from level 1. Well... XP needed to get to 60 was reduced in the last expansion that introduced a level cap of 70. With the cap raised to 80; the amount of XP needed to go from 1 to 70 got reduced. As well, the rewards from quests got increased. Of course, some players (who have lvl 55+ characters), can just 'get' a level 55 character right off the bat, a Death Knight.

Personally, I find WoW to be good research into what makes a game entertaining, or not.

[Kaelik]

People are complaining about how "playing WoW doesn't create"? That's news to me. It seems the thread is just complaining about WoW being addictive. Only Jilocasin mentioned anything regarding WoW not creating anything of value.

And Crissa going "Haha I'm gonna create stuff while you people rant!", when she's a self-proclaimed analyst as opposed to designer. You know, someone who analyzes stuff as opposed to creating them.

This whole creation business is honestly a weird and ironic tangent.

Dude, Jilocasin complained about the lack of tangible progress, and Count talked about those losers who pursue progress in a videogame instead of territory, which is apparently cool unlike that loser fun shit.

There is a definite byline to the conversation about how it's a waste of time.

I'm calling bullshit on that. If you don't want to talk about WoW being a waste of time, then good for you, I'm not talking to you. But since it does exist, in this very thread, this seems like the most obvious place to counter these assertions.

[TheWorid]

Whether or not WoW is creative is immaterial, because the salient point is that it is boring. I cannot fathom how one could become "addicted" to it without having serious mental issues to begin with. It is the same basic tripe dispensed by every MMO out there: Grind rats -> Grind dragons, with the only significant difference being that the numbers are higher.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I have played both World of Warcraft (a friend convinced me to spend a few hours making and playing a character on their account) and Ginormo Sword. Ginormo Sword is better, and I spent more time on it before losing interest.

It is also a free Flash game with more compelling tactical play.

http://playthisthing.com/ginormo-sword

[Count Arioch the 28th]

WoW does do things that make you want to play that doesn't directly invole making the game fun.

That being said, if you are weak enough to allow a game to dictate your life, I don't care. That's one less male I have to compete with for mates and territory. And if someone chooses a game over the well-being of those in their life, fuck THEM in the eye, not the game.

Because your pursuit of territory and mates leads directly to fun doesn't it...

It does if you find the right person to pursue. Everything changed the day I said "I don't deserve to be treated like this by ANYONE" and actually meant it.

Back on topic: My biggest beef with WoW is the Endgame. I played WoW to 60 (I made level 60 the month before the level cap got raised to 70 and I had literally been playing since the fist month it was released, if that tells you anything about how casual I played. I'm disappointed that I lost the screenshot I took when I hit 60, that actually was a moment of some pride for me)

And to be honest, I had fun. I had made a couple in-game friends, I enjoyed the in-game lore and history, and I loved how every zone looked different. Never mind the grinding and the BS, I legitimately enjoyed the game.

Level 60 changed everything. Back on those days, places like Scholomance and Stratholme and the one in the volcano where you climbgthe chain (can't for the life of me think of the zone) were raid-level dungeons and required a good amount of coordination and numbers to beat (gear was worse, in many cases certain classes were still being tweaked, several classes like Warlock and Warrior got complete revisions, etc.). i.e., no pickup groups back in "the day". At least, not on my server of Hellscream.

I had to join a guild. (I was leader and sole member of a joke guild, but it's hard to run a raid with your own alts). Joining the guild was less of a process back in those days, but still was pretty aruduous. You would have to run Molten Core repeatedly, dozens of times. You weren't allowed loot, you weren't allowed recompense for things you used to aid the rest of the party, you had to do that. Several times a week at minimum, every day if you seriously wanted to beat out those who could.

It is perhaps my own quirk, but I hate doing any one thing every day. I crave variety. I also hate working hard so someone else can take it.

But that's what you had to do, and I heard nowadays it's far worse.

I tried playing other characters (Got a really cute female dwarf warrior up to 40), but really I had done most of this stuff already, and it lost its charm the second time around.

[Cielingcat]

Joining a guild isn't anything like that nowadays. You just apply with some proof of your ability, and then you get accepted (or denied if they don't want you). Most guilds have loot systems designed to be as fair to everyone as possible.

The process I used to get into the guild I'm in for raiding was seriously asking the name of their website and filling out an application, then waiting for the officers to read it.


Honestly, modern WoW is only a grind if you're grinding things solo. If you actually do endgame stuff-which is raiding and arenas-there is far less grinding. You still have to do the same things a lot, but the things are actually challenging (for the most part), and the only grind is because you don't get everything the first time you win.

[Surgo]

Is there a MMO that's done "right"?

I started playing Guild Wars lately. I like it a lot. No monthly subscription fees. Doesn't appear to be that much grind. And best of all, they let you freely change your skills and stats and whatnot at just about any point you want to -- no penalty at all.

And if you want to play PvP, you can seriously just make a PvP character and deck him out however you want to. No nonsense, no bullshit. That's pretty admirable.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Joining a guild isn't anything like that nowadays. You just apply with some proof of your ability, and then you get accepted (or denied if they don't want you). Most guilds have loot systems designed to be as fair to everyone as possible.

The process I used to get into the guild I'm in for raiding was seriously asking the name of their website and filling out an application, then waiting for the officers to read it.


Honestly, modern WoW is only a grind if you're grinding things solo. If you actually do endgame stuff-which is raiding and arenas-there is far less grinding. You still have to do the same things a lot, but the things are actually challenging (for the most part), and the only grind is because you don't get everything the first time you win.

That's a point in WoW's favor, I just don't feel like leveling a character up again. (Or gearing up the nekkid level 60 Troll Mage I have parked in Orgrimmar)

[NineInchNall]

Is there a MMO that's done "right"?

I started playing Guild Wars lately. I like it a lot.

Guild Wars is about as close as we've seen to a mainstream MMO done right. I'm tempted to reinstall it right now, actually ...

[Zinegata]

People are complaining about how "playing WoW doesn't create"? That's news to me. It seems the thread is just complaining about WoW being addictive. Only Jilocasin mentioned anything regarding WoW not creating anything of value.

And Crissa going "Haha I'm gonna create stuff while you people rant!", when she's a self-proclaimed analyst as opposed to designer. You know, someone who analyzes stuff as opposed to creating them.

This whole creation business is honestly a weird and ironic tangent.

Dude, Jilocasin complained about the lack of tangible progress, and Count talked about those losers who pursue progress in a videogame instead of territory, which is apparently cool unlike that loser fun shit.

There is a definite byline to the conversation about how it's a waste of time.

I'm calling bullshit on that. If you don't want to talk about WoW being a waste of time, then good for you, I'm not talking to you. But since it does exist, in this very thread, this seems like the most obvious place to counter these assertions.

Ok.

[RandomCasualty2]

Is there a MMO that's done "right"?

EVE is kinda okay in that it captures the whole massive multiplayer thing pretty well, and there are meaningful gains and losses. The gameplay is still MMO boring though, but what can you expect from a MMORPG.

Going beyond RPGs, Planetside was actually a really awesome game at one time. That was an MMOFPS. They totally fucked it to all hell by adding giant robots, but it was a great game before that.

[Jilocasin]

Alright alright, fine. It's no more a waste of time than anything else anyone does to keep from going insane. I dislike that many aspects of it are designed to reinforce addictive behavior, but I freely admit that most people are fully capable of keeping in touch with reality. I was rambling because, yes, I hate wow.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I've actually gotten people off WoW using The Book of Dread as a stepping stone.

[Wesley Street]

I am not against MMORPGs. I find the concept intriguing. Hell, build a holodeck or the Metaverse and I'll hang out in it. However, I've never found an MMORPG that I actually wanted to play as I find the traditional fantasy genre dull and the sci-fi entries to the online multi-player arena are lackluster.

I hate WoW for the following, simple, reasons:

1) Due to the limits of technology, in terms of the actual game, a player can't actually DO anything in it but gather items and kill things. I can't negotiate treaties between warring nation-states to change the political landscape, I can't lead an army of 10,000 screaming barbarians across the plains to rape and pillage... I can't even save a princess, bang her brains out, and raise a family on a farm. I'd rather play Bejewled while on the toilet than grind away to get better armor when, in the end, I haven't shaped anything significant in the in-game universe. It's like Shadowrun... no matter what I do I can't effect the outcome of the big-players (though in SR it's sorta charming and kind of the point of the [post]cyberpunk sub-genre).

2) I have friends who would rather play WoW than play RPGs with me. They prefer to sit alone, in a dark room, with cans of Mt. Dew and a microphone, chatting with some teenager in Korea and yell "buff me, n00b!" than actually socialize, face-to-face with people they know and creatively world build. Like with imaginations and stuff. And actually crunching numbers in their head to stave off the Alzheimer's. "Wesley," you say. "It's not WoW's fault. You're just an asshole and nobody likes you." To which I reply: "Of course I'm an asshole, I'm a Game Master." But on the occasions that I actually got my WoW-playing brethren to sit at the table with me and play, say, D&D (which I think would be an easy mental transition) they say they don't like it because it's "too much like WoW" and they'd rather be playing WoW. I'd argue that the whole underlying principle of WoW is based on D&D and other class-based fantasy RPGs... to which I would receive a shrug.

I'm not anti-video game. I love Grand Theft Auto. Make something like THAT into an MMORPG. I'm playing Batman: Arkham Asylum and I've been fiddling around with Sims games since the original Sim City (talk about never-ending). The most recent Civilization looks interesting.

But WoW can eat a dick. If people are just using WoW as a social lubricant there are healthier ways to meet people.

[Murtak]

1. Love has player-alterable worlds. Unfortunately the graphics give me splitting headaches. But the technology is there. No big games are using them yet, but they will eventually.

2. Don't confuse WoW with RPGs. WoW (and before it Everquest) is a tactical cooperative hack and slash. I used to play Everquest because I could play whenever I wanted to (which as often as not, was in the dead of night), because it was tactically interesting and because I could chat with (online friends). I can't speak for your friends of course, but I suspect they play for similar reasons, even if it may not be clear to them. And you can't do any of that in a tabletop RPG. You have to coordinate a regular time to meet, you do have interesting tactical choices, but no time pressure and chatting actually detracts from the game.

TL;DR: MMOGs and tabletop RPGs may share trolls, dragons, strength scores and fireballs but they are actually diametrically opposed. Basketball and WoW have more in common than DnD and WoW.

[Psychic Robot]

I love Grand Theft Auto. Make something like THAT into an MMORPG.

You rang?

[Calibron]

I've actually gotten people off WoW using The Book of Dread as a stepping stone.

That's fucking awesome. Kudos to you. In fact, Huzzah and Kudos!

[Maxus]

I've actually gotten people off WoW using The Book of Dread as a stepping stone.

That's fucking awesome. Kudos to you. In fact, Huzzah and Kudos!

Yes, it's what 4e should be. Graphics and point-and-click interface.

[Crissa]

The APB dev guy is a raging asshole, ugh. Went to his demo a couple years ago... Bleah.

I remember getting to the point that I could solo segments of top-level dungeons at 60. That was kinda cool.

-Crissa

[Wesley Street]

I love Grand Theft Auto. Make something like THAT into an MMORPG.

You rang?

If that game delivers what its promising, I'll definitely play.

[Judging__Eagle]

The APB dev guy is a raging asshole, ugh. Went to his demo a couple years ago... Bleah.

I remember getting to the point that I could solo segments of top-level dungeons at 60. That was kinda cool.

-Crissa

The game has gotten to the point where single, well-geared, characters can solo level 80, 5-man, Heroic Dungeons. Granted, they're Death Knights (a pretty OP class), but you do need a certain degree of skill to manage the monsters that are in a dungeon if you're on your own.

Three-manning what used to be level 60 40-player raids, solely for the appearance of the loot is interesting and funny.

Seriously, if MMO's just had scaling gear, then every dungeon would suddenly make more sense to enter. Players will seriously grind a place b/c the gear looks good.

[Maxus]

Is there a MMO that's done "right"?

I started playing Guild Wars lately. I like it a lot.

Guild Wars is about as close as we've seen to a mainstream MMO done right. I'm tempted to reinstall it right now, actually ...

My aunt and three of her kids (all grown, all living in different houses) play the Star Wars Galaxies MMO and it seems like it has a few things going for it. It looks like the player economy is pretty strong. You can't grind up artifact-level gear by doing the same dungeons over and over again--you have to go through a player who can improve weapons and armor.

The PvP boils down to Imperial vs. Rebel and there seems to be a lot of it. These being Star Wars nerds playing it, they identify more strongly with whichever side they pick.

There's also a dogfight which means you're now playing Rogue Squadron: the MMO.

[Aktariel]

Funny story; I'm actually reinstalling WoW right now as a result of this thread reminding me it existed. I played the original beta, dropped it when it went paid, picked it back up briefly on a private server two or so years ago, dropped it again, picked it back up last July playing on a different private server, dropped it because I was QA testing for EA at the time and wanted to go home and play a game that wasn't buggy, broke up with my GF and stopped playing WoW at the same time, took a break, and am now going back to playing on a completely different server - still private.

I have never paid for WoW and don't intend to do so; private servers do me just fine - they hit the sweet spot in terms of leveling for me, just enough to keep me going but not fast enough that I get bored. I have also never really gotten addicted - it was just another game that I played.

I enjoy it, but I don't play it anymore than any other game that I get into, or a book that I read. It's reasonably well balanced and it runs on Mac (which is important to me).

[Crissa]

I'm sitting on an offer for a few week of play.

I figure my friend will drag me back to play for a day or something.

-Crissa