From Arizona to Pacific Asian American History

[violence in the media]

The problem with 'path to citizenship' is it instantly makes all of these workers useless. The only way these guys get useful work is because no one has to provide minimum wage, taxes, workman's comp and other insurance, social security benefits and the like AND businesses get to make money and pay a little tax on the side. Make them all citizens and you have an instant underclass that is no more useful to America than the millions on the government dole right now in cities across the country. I know of people in Texas that would fire (tomorrow) their landscapers and housekeepers if they had to pay minimum wage + expenses to some company. Some of my family is in construction there and while they do not have any workers/laborers (they are in design, not actual labor), they see that ALL the construction companies there hire illegals, no one even speaks English on the job site. This works ONLY because the labor is cheap. Make all these people citizens and you have a huge underclass that is not employed. "Path to citizenship" is a boondoggle that might as well be "path to unemployment" which is a very short path to "vote Left!!11!!" so that benefits continue to flow long after the people are useful to society. Hence my point about entitlement programs going broke.

Here's an idea: if your ability to employ someone, or run a business, is contingent on paying slave wages, then maybe you shouldn't be in business or you should get off your ass and mow your own fucking yard.

[Username17]

Neeek's assessment is Not an Exaggeration. The Federal Budget stays afloat because it is soaking New Jersey, California, Illinois, and New York. We're in financial trouble at all, because the South exists yet refuses to pay taxes or not suck - conditions I believe to be related.

Yeah, the fact we lose Federal money on forward bases like Alaska and Hawaii isn't super surprising, but what the fuck is Mississippi's excuse? Or Virginia's? They aren't even a border to protect, they fucking suck at economics.

But that's not even the most completely wrong part of Lich Loved's tirade. The most wrong is this creeping back-door American Exceptionalism that he has here:

Norway seriously has a population of a middling US city and vast natural resource wealth. You might as well mention Kwuait or some other tiny country with disproportionate resources, landmass and population figures. And wikipedia points out there there as many Norwegians living in the US as there are in Norway (wonder what that signifies) and if they should all return to their prosperous homeland, it would cut the GDP per capita in half, placing it well below the US. Nah, Norway isn't a very good example. Try another big country comparible to ours in landmass, resources, population and mixed ethnicity, like China or Russia. Maybe the entire EU might be an example, but then again, they are not doing so well at the moment financially.

This is of course a No True Scotsman fallacy. And a bunch of other things to. The historicity of why people fled Norway during the various bouts with poverty, monarchy, and wars that it had in previous generations is not a secret by any means. Let's be real here, 70 years ago, Norway looked like this while it was being invaded by the Nazis:


And of course there's the simple fact that Norwegians in the United States have property and bank accounts and skills and shit. Per capita, they have almost as much GDP as Norwegians in modern Norway. If they sold off their property and moved to Oslo, the per capita GDP of Norway wouldn't halve, it would only dip slightly.

But even that isn't the point. The point is that if you refuse to compare countries on the grounds that they have differences, then you're implicitly refusing to do research or make informed policy decisions at all. Don't want to compare the US to any European country because they have less people? Well how about comparing the US to its own fucking past, when it had less people? Germany ad Japan of today have more people than the US did at the turn of the last century. If we can't compare those countries, we can't learn from history at all.

The fact is that different countries try different things. The United States, for example, is the only major industrialized country that tried "not having all its major cities bombed during World War 2" - and that turned out to be quite a winning move. China, India, and Russia on the other hand tried the whole "entering the 20th century under the harsh rule of sword wielding aristocratic warlords" thing, and I think it's pretty clear that didn't work out. However, you have to accept that different plans carry different consequences, and that results vary wildly in effectiveness.

You can't expect to be taken seriously when you find out that your country has the 23rd happiest people, the 37th best healthcare system, the 38th best life expectancy, and the 6th highest GDP per capita, and claim that none of the countries that come in better by any rubric count. Of course they count! They are countries, and in on or more fashion they are doing better than the US, and you would be wise to emulate them or at least attempt to understand why they are winning those races and see what you can do.

Even within the country you have different states that are doing more and less well in different areas, and you're damn right that you should be considering the why and the how and improving the ones that aren't doing as well. Some of the answers won't be simple. California has a University system that churns out a tremendous number of very skilled people, but it's highschool graduation rate (68%) is only marginally better than a shit hole like Mississippi (61%). The graduation rate for Blacks is unfortunately the same (55%). Clearly there's a disconnect there, and we as Californians should look at some of the things that maybe Connecticut (79% overall, 63% Blacks) or New Jersey (82% overall, 67% Black) are doing. And emulate them, or make a new plan based on a model of why we think their plans work better than ours.

The correct response is not to say that California is a bigger state and therefore has nothing to learn from any smaller state, whether it is doing better or worse in primary education. That is just fucking insane.

Yeah, there are all kinds of differences between countries and regions inside the country. And you can't claim correlation equals causation for any two of them in isolation. I am willing to bet real money that Sweden's high consumption of fish paste on a per capita basis has virtually nothing to do with why it beats the pants off of the US in healthcare and overall satisfaction. But I am also completely unwilling to take a bullshit imperialist stance that the US has nothing to learn from any other country simply because the United States is different on some scale or another from every other country.

-Username17

[cthulhu]

Neeek's assessment is

And of course there's the simple fact that Norwegians in the United States have property and bank accounts and skills and shit. Per capita, they have almost as much GDP as Norwegians in modern Norway. If they sold off their property and moved to Oslo, the per capita GDP of Norway wouldn't halve, it would only dip slightly.

As a rule, on average immigrants are more productive than the donor populations they leave behind.

[mean_liar]

CBO report on illegal immigration's effects on state and local governments:
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711 ... ration.pdf

Illegal immigration in the US functionally appears to be a net-zero. Illegal immigration takes in more resources than it pays to government, but the private-sector economic impact isn't part of that assessment.

There's a very real impact to lower classes and benefit to middle- and upper-classes, as the illegals are working cheaper than Americans. This disproportionately hits black Americans, manifesting in lower wages, higher unemployment and (allegedly) higher rates of incarceration
http://www.nber.org/digest/may07/w12518.html

Forcibly deporting illegal immigrants by an environment of fear is morally repulsive but might garner positive native American results for lower classes, but the law enforcement requirements would mean that it's likely that you wouldn't reduce state/local expenditures unless you really terrorized the shit out of your target populations sufficient to severely curtail future immigration, which is unlikely. In the end the costs would be justified under the same rationale that other, similar police-state wastes of funds are and America will be worse for it.

A functioning migrant worker program or naturalization process would increase the tax revenues and lessen impacts from immigration and probably turn them net-positive, but at the same time you're still contributing to undercutting lower class Americans for the benefit of the middle- and upper-classes.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Or Virginia's? They aren't even a border to protect, they fucking suck at economics.

Virginia's problem is that we have an amendment to the state constitution that says that we have to balance our budget every year or it can't be brought to a vote. Which means that our state economy declines just a little bit every year. Not to mention that we're practically teabagger central here, and even when convinced that having socialized medicine would be cheaper in the end, Virginians are for the most part happy to pay more to make sure that single mother over there doesn't get to have any.

Saying we "fucking suck at economics" is technically accurate but doesn't really describe the depths to which we Virginians suck on a collective scale.

[Orca]

But even that isn't the point. The point is that if you refuse to compare countries on the grounds that they have differences, then you're implicitly refusing to do research or make informed policy decisions at all. Don't want to compare the US to any European country because they have less people? Well how about comparing the US to its own fucking past, when it had less people? Germany ad Japan of today have more people than the US did at the turn of the last century. If we can't compare those countries, we can't learn from history at all.

I had more or less this argument with another american right-winger on another board. He refused to accept comparisons between any two countries on the basis that they couldn't be directly comparable, therefore he could rely on economics without being informed by history.

I have no idea where he thought economics comes from.

[Crissa]

If you compare states to other countries - on the case they're similar sizes - California comes out 7th in the world and most of the red states are not happy at all somewhere in the middle east.

-Crissa

[Ganbare Gincun]

Moar racist shit:

U.S. Representative Backs Deportation Of Illegal Immigrants' U.S. Kids

My favorite quote from the article:

"And we're not being mean. We're just saying it takes more than walking across the border to become an American citizen," he said. "It's what's in our souls."

Only snowy-white souls allowed to immigrate to our country, thanks! More news from Arizona:

Terry Goddard Leads In Arizona Polls

And finally, a sneak peek on which states filled with scared, crazy white people will enlist the help of the Immigration Reform Law Institute to turn their states into Jim Crow territory:

Following Passage Of Arizona Law, At Least Seven States Contemplate Anti-Immigrant Legislation

[Neeeek]

Moar racist shit:

U.S. Representative Backs Deportation Of Illegal Immigrants' U.S. Kids

My favorite quote from the article:

"And we're not being mean. We're just saying it takes more than walking across the border to become an American citizen," he said. "It's what's in our souls."

Only snowy-white souls allowed to immigrate to our country, thanks!

It's like they haven't read the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.

[Maxus]

Moar racist shit:

U.S. Representative Backs Deportation Of Illegal Immigrants' U.S. Kids

My favorite quote from the article:

"And we're not being mean. We're just saying it takes more than walking across the border to become an American citizen," he said. "It's what's in our souls."

Only snowy-white souls allowed to immigrate to our country, thanks!

It's like they haven't read the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.

That shuts down deporting. It's right there. If you're born in the U.S., you're a citizen. BAM.

[Koumei]

It's like they haven't read the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.

Don't be silly, there's only one part of the Constitution any of them care about: the right to bear arms.

[Cielingcat]

One congressman actually supports repealing the 17th amendment, and a lot of them seem to be banking on repeal of the 15th to stay in office (or they just think they can so thoroughly disenfranchise non-whites as to make them not vote at all), as well as some Republicans not even believing in the 14th, so yeah, Koumei's exaggeration isn't such an exaggeration.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Thank god race doesn't have anything to do with it: Arizona Legislature Bans Ethnic-Studies Programs. And the reason?

The bill forbids Arizona schools from using any curriculum that promotes "the overthrow of the United States government" or "resentment toward a race or class of people." It also disallows any curriculum that's "designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group" or that seeks to "advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals."

Arizona's superintendent for public instruction, Tom Horne, has said he's backing the measure because ethnic-studies programs encourage "ethnic chauvinism"; he's also suggested that such programs could breed secessionist sentiment among Hispanic students.

Hilarious. Oh, you can't have a "funny accent" either: Arizona Grades Teachers on Fluency

The Arizona Department of Education recently began telling school districts that teachers whose spoken English it deems to be heavily accented or ungrammatical must be removed from classes for students still learning English.

What next, Arizona? Gonna roll out Jim Crow?

[Kaelik]

Ganbare, could you tone back the crazy somewhat? I would rather learn French from someone who speaks French than someone who speaks Quebecois.

If you have ability to do so, go ahead.

And you'll note that the ethnic studies groups are being cancelled for the exact reason black only schools are. It may not be a wise choice. It may not be an informed choice. But to cast it as racist is only a symptom of your paranoia.

[Crissa]

Kaelik, Arizona has a population that is one in three hispanic. It always has. They have a goodly number of people who speak spanish in their homes. This law is about shutting up minorities.

How are you supposed to learn english from someone with a southern accent? I doubt they'll be firing those teachers.

-Crissa

[Koumei]

How are you supposed to learn english from someone with a southern accent? I doubt they'll be firing those teachers.

No kidding. Pick your favourite TV seedy Mexican "Ceeeee, señor, iiis sheee your siiista?" accent, it's still easier to understand than a southern drawl.

[Cynic]

Kaelik: black only schools were banned not because they would teach person to be anti-american. ethnic programs are being cancelled because apparently they teach people to be anti american. ~_~

[CatharzGodfoot]

If 1 in three Arizonies really are Hispanic, why is all this crap being put into law? Aren't they a strong enough voting bloc?

Also, these people elected John McCain senator, and can't even keep their highways open all day. Don't expect a lot from Arizonies.

[Crissa]

Like I said, Jan Brewer cancelled 100,000 voter registrations in 2008. The majority of which were in Democratic districts or Latino. A federal attorney was fired by the Bushies because he wouldn't start up voter fraud charges because he couldn't find any to prosecute.

They've always been marginalized by the rich people in power.

-Crissa

[Ganbare Gincun]

Ganbare, could you tone back the crazy somewhat?

The only craziness that's going on here is in Arizona, and I believe that my links - and the the comments by the informed posters here - bear that reality out. So why don't you stop drinking the Fox News Kool-Aid and have a cool, refreshing glass of shut the fuck up for a change, hmm?

I would rather learn French from someone who speaks French than someone who speaks Quebecois.

So tell me, Kaelik - who should I be learning English from? Someone in Texas? Someone from Minnesota? A Brit? A Scot? A Welshmen? Who amongst these people has the "proper accent" that will allow me to learn "proper English"?

Having a pronounced accent is not a valid criteria for disqualifing someone from teaching a language.

And you'll note that the ethnic studies groups are being cancelled for the exact reason black only schools are. It may not be a wise choice. It may not be an informed choice. But to cast it as racist is only a symptom of your paranoia.

*rolls eyes*

[Koumei]

So tell me, Kaelik - who should I be learning English from? Someone in Texas? Someone from Minnesota? A Brit? A Scot? A Welshmen? Who amongst these people has the "proper accent" that will allow me to learn "proper English"?

Anyone with a Cambridge graduate British accent. Preferably Stephen Fry. Basically, everyone should learn to speak from Stephen Fry.

[CatharzGodfoot]

They've always been marginalized by the rich people in power.

An interesting tidbit form that:

[By the way, no one elected Brewer. Weirdly, Barack Obama placed her in office last year when, for reasons known only to the Devil and Rahm Emanuel, the President appointed Arizona's Democratic Governor Janet Napolitano to his cabinet, which automatically moved Republican Brewer into the Governor's office.]

[Ganbare Gincun]

If 1 in three Arizonies really are Hispanic, why is all this crap being put into law? Aren't they a strong enough voting bloc?

Although the Republican Party would lead you to believe that all Hispanics everywhere are Democratic voters, there are some areas of the country where Hispanic voters lean significantly to the Right. Texas and Arizona are two states where this happens to be the case. Hispanic voters in these states are typically fairly politically and socially conservative, and they therefore will occasionally be inclined to cast their votes for Republican politicians that share their values, just like anyone else.

And back before the Republican Party completely lost its mind, both Karl Rove and John McCain attempted to draft legislation to try and resolve the thorny issue of illegal immigration in America. They had the wisdom to realize that they needed to get some traction on this issue in order to not only secure their own Hispanic voting blocs for the indefinite future, but to also lay a foundation to gain ground in areas like California and New York where Hispanics are predominately Democratic. Unfortunately for them, the rest of the Party shot these efforts down faster then you can say "Sarah Palin" because, frankly, the base doesn't like non-whites, and the companies that hire illegal immigrants in the first place didn't care to have John McCain shitting in their curry and slicing into their profit margins. That didn't go over very well with Hispanic voters, needless to say.

In Arizona, the Republicans managed to fuck things up even more by dropping 100,000 Hispanic voters from their rolls in the Great Brown-Out. Let me tell you, nothing gets a demographic to your side quicker then taking away their voting rights! Even Michael Steele will back me up on this fact. That also pissed a lot of Hispanic voters off.

The Republican Party could have scored some easy points with Hispanic voters if they hadn't acted like a bunch of jackasses during Sotomayor's nomination process. Instead, they decided to appeal to their old, crazy, rapidly diminishing white racist base.

But the fact of the matter is that the GOP can shit all over Hispanics in Arizona all they want because they vote against their own interests for the same reasons that poor white voters in Red States do - because they are more interested in religious bullshit then aligning themselves with political leaders that will actually do something on their behalf in exchange for their votes. To quote the Arizona Hispanic Republicans:

Hispanics are more aligned with Republican values because of our social conservative values and our belief in the Creator; and if Hispanics want to make a real change to help change the face of our Party to bring it back to the Party of Abraham Lincoln, then I call upon all Latinos (Democrat and Independent) to register themselves as Republicans in order to bring it back to those roots.

Good luck with that, guys. You know what they say: wish in one hand and crap in the other, and see which one piles up first.

Basically, everyone in Arizona is retarded. You have White Racists on one side, and Hispanic Jesus Freaks on the other side, and the Jesus Freaks aren't willing to flex their political muscle to save themselves from "The Party Of Lincoln" just yet. The chances are good that the Hispanic Jesus Freaks are eventually going to come around to the Democratic Party, much like Hispanics and Latinos have in most other states. You can only get kicked in the balls so many times before you get sick of it, after all, and that has the Republicans quaking in their boots.

[Cielingcat]

The only craziness that's going on here is in Arizona, and I believe that my links - and the the comments by the informed posters here - bear that reality out. So why don't you stop drinking the Fox News Kool-Aid and have a cool, refreshing glass of shut the fuck up for a change, hmm?

Kaelik isn't a right wing moron, he just seems to have the idea that minorities should just shut the fuck up and that racism (as well as sexism, and basically any form of discrimination) doesn't exist, even in the most obvious ways possible. Every time he posts on a related topic, it's the same shit with the words replaced.

In this thread, we have "calling out racism is paranoia." In the book thread, he supports removing mention of the genocide of Native Americans from textbooks, because they weren't perfect and the fact that the noble savage myth is a myth means things are totally one for one. In another thread, his justification for abortion being wrong is "Because stupid people are bad."

So while he sometimes seems to support left wing causes, in the end, the only thing consistent is that he's discovered the joy of being TOTALLY EDGY and internet superior.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik isn't a right wing moron, he just seems to have the idea that minorities should just shut the fuck up and that racism (as well as sexism, and basically any form of discrimination) doesn't exist, even in the most obvious ways possible. Every time he posts on a related topic, it's the same shit with the words replaced.

In this thread, we have "calling out racism is paranoia." In the book thread, he supports removing mention of the genocide of Native Americans from textbooks, because they weren't perfect and the fact that the noble savage myth is a myth means things are totally one for one. In another thread, his justification for abortion being wrong is "Because stupid people are bad."

So while he sometimes seems to support left wing causes, in the end, the only thing consistent is that he's discovered the joy of being TOTALLY EDGY and internet superior.

Oh look, Ceiling Cat is all butthurt because I called his transexual desires equivalent to a tattoo or any other cosmetic feelings, instead of his "soul's inner desire" so now he's lying about shit to discredit me on the internet. How cute.

No Ceiling Cat. In this thread, calling out racism whenever you disagree with a policy designed to combat racism is paranoia. Just like calling out mistakes in judgment made by US forces as racism is paranoia. Just like every time Ganbare ever posts anything it's to decry the evil racists who dare to disagree with him on any issue at all.

Because Ganbare has only one toggle, and it goes from "Agrees with me 100%" to "Racist" with no in between, and so the very act of him calling someone racist makes me believe that person is not racist.

But go ahead and lie. Claim that I have even once said we shouldn't talk about the Native American Genocide. Frankly, I don't think Jews are smarter and better than everyone else, but that doesn't make the Holocaust less of a genocide. I made no claims about what we should teach whatsoever, only what we do teach, but if I were going to suggest a change, it would be to stop lying about how great the NAs were, and just admit they were probably assholes, but still quite a bit less assholes than the people who murdered them. I don't have to pretend someone is perfect to care about their death.

But sure, lie about abortion in the most hilarious way possible, because everyone on this forum has at one time or another seen me defend abortion as completely right and fucking mandatory. Just tell everyone that I oppose abortion, no one will actually remember and/or read what I have posted in the past or future and catch you on your lie.

And have fun with your continued butthurt because I still won't treat your desire to look like a women and be treated like one as superior to my desire to have sex or eat food or paint my wall blue.

The only craziness that's going on here is in Arizona, and I believe that my links - and the the comments by the informed posters here - bear that reality out. So why don't you stop drinking the Fox News Kool-Aid and have a cool, refreshing glass of shut the fuck up for a change, hmm?

No, what your links and the comments of the "informed posters" have demonstrated is that there is a racial problem in Arizona. And that races in Arizona are segregated, and that they hate each other.

Great. Now how about, for once in your life you accept that there exist people with good intentions who have noticed this curious feature, and have decided that segregation causes racial hatred. But because they are generally stupid and incompetent and powerless, they choose to attempt to force integration on the wrong end, because they can't force integration on the right end.

So tell me, Kaelik - who should I be learning English from? Someone in Texas? Someone from Minnesota? A Brit? A Scot? A Welshmen? Who amongst these people has the "proper accent" that will allow me to learn "proper English"?

Having a pronounced accent is not a valid criteria for disqualifing someone from teaching a language.

Well, if you happen to be in Arizona for whatever reason, you should learn english from those people who have learned english well enough to not have a pronounced accent. Those people are almost certainly all hispanic, because people who learned english in Arizona as a native language usually have an Arizonan accent, whatever the fuck that is.