This is the internet

[Kaelik]

You don't get to choose what is and isn't gender-neutral. You don't get to choose what is and isn't a racist or sexist framing. This happens outside of you.

Yes, it happens when a bunch of people use the word in a way, sort of like a democracy. And so I cast my vote for "bitch is not gender specific" as did most people who voiced an opinion in the other thread.

As do the vast majority of people under 30.

Stop being old.

FYI: I did a quick poll of my various female friends real quick over the last couple days.

Then I separated by age. Obviously this is b no means statistical analysis, I don't even have a control group of men or equal each gender or whatever, not even to mention the selection bias from being my friend, or the way I worded the question (which wasn't even standardized across the numbers.)

Over 30: 66% thought it was gendered when used as a direct name calling insult (several made exceptions for "bitching" the verb, as not gendered others did not)

Under 30: 85% did not think it was gendered in use today.

Conclusion: Crissa is old.

[Kaelik]

If you want to actually look at the numbers, here's what they are:
5609 up, 1801 down for the guy.
4334 up, 1930 down for the top definition pertaining to women.

More people think that a bitch is a man than think is a woman. Seriously.

Actually Uber, you aren't taking into account things like multiple definitions that are female and up voting multiple definitions and committed people who upvote one definition multiple times.

Of course, we can't really figure out how all that would affect it: For example, if someone votes up a male definition and a female definition, they could just not consider it a gendered insult, which is back to one. But they could also be a sexist dickhead that thinks bitch is an insult for "guys who act like girls" and "women who act like guys" which would make it not actually a gendered insult at all, but still sexist.

[IGTN]

Anecdotally, I've heard the gendered sense out of the mouths of twelve-year-olds, one of whom I know didn't pick it up at home. It's not like it's gone from the younger generation. It has a gendered meaning to me, and I'm only barely old enough to legally drink. So there is a counterexample to the idea that to young people, it is not a gendered slur.

Also, since so many people here have spoken up, it's pretty clear that in English as it is understood by Denizens "bitch" is a sexist slur. If you know this and insist on using it, you are deliberately using a sexist slur. The sense you mean a word in is irrelevant, all that matters is what actually gets across, and thinking otherwise justifies the people who get angry when they go to non-English-speaking countries and find that people don't speak English. If you don't want people to think of you as the kind of person who deliberately uses sexist slurs, don't say things that you know come across as sexist slurs. It's that simple.

Alternately, if you don't want to argue about it, own your sexism. Say "I know you hear it as a sexist slur, and I don't care. I'll call you a bitch if I want to.". I can promise that I won't think less of you for saying that than I do now.

[Zinegata]

Anecdotally, I've heard the gendered sense out of the mouths of twelve-year-olds, one of whom I know didn't pick it up at home. It's not like it's gone from the younger generation. It has a gendered meaning to me, and I'm only barely old enough to legally drink. So there is a counterexample to the idea that to young people, it is not a gendered slur.

Also, since so many people here have spoken up, it's pretty clear that in English as it is understood by Denizens "bitch" is a sexist slur. If you know this and insist on using it, you are deliberately using a sexist slur. The sense you mean a word in is irrelevant, all that matters is what actually gets across, and thinking otherwise justifies the people who get angry when they go to non-English-speaking countries and find that people don't speak English. If you don't want people to think of you as the kind of person who deliberately uses sexist slurs, don't say things that you know come across as sexist slurs. It's that simple.

Alternately, if you don't want to argue about it, own your sexism. Say "I know you hear it as a sexist slur, and I don't care. I'll call you a bitch if I want to.". I can promise that I won't think less of you for saying that than I do now.

I am beginning to find it hugely ironic that Kaelik keeps getting hit with the sexism card when I was probably the first one to call Crissa a bitch recently.

On the other hand, lots of people use it here. And I keep saying it's a dig against Crissa and not other people anyway.

[ubernoob]

Anecdotally, I've heard the gendered sense out of the mouths of twelve-year-olds, one of whom I know didn't pick it up at home. It's not like it's gone from the younger generation. It has a gendered meaning to me, and I'm only barely old enough to legally drink. So there is a counterexample to the idea that to young people, it is not a gendered slur.

Also, since so many people here have spoken up, it's pretty clear that in English as it is understood by Denizens "bitch" is a sexist slur. If you know this and insist on using it, you are deliberately using a sexist slur. The sense you mean a word in is irrelevant, all that matters is what actually gets across, and thinking otherwise justifies the people who get angry when they go to non-English-speaking countries and find that people don't speak English. If you don't want people to think of you as the kind of person who deliberately uses sexist slurs, don't say things that you know come across as sexist slurs. It's that simple.

Alternately, if you don't want to argue about it, own your sexism. Say "I know you hear it as a sexist slur, and I don't care. I'll call you a bitch if I want to.". I can promise that I won't think less of you for saying that than I do now.

I don't think you get it. I am so for equal rights for women that I don't even use gender specific insults. Like, ever. That's why I'm pissed. You're calling me sexist when I'm actually a better example of a feminist than Crissa. The fact that Crissa does feminism wrong is the real problem here, not the word bitch.

[IGTN]

I don't think you get it. I am so for equal rights for women that I don't even use gender specific insults. Like, ever. That's why I'm pissed. You're calling me sexist when I'm actually a better example of a feminist than Crissa. The fact that Crissa does feminism wrong is the real problem here, not the word bitch.

I'll believe that you're a feminist when I see it.

[Crissa]

There's a difference, Zinegata. You didn't post a screed against feminism, and you're merely an idiot.

The fact that you can't understand the difference between a minor use of a sexist insult vs actually bringing in sexist arguments against equality is just one of your minor failings. It's not like it's particularly notable about you; you seem to misunderstand anything that is a sliding scale, as anything in the real world is.

-Crissa

[ubernoob]

I don't think you get it. I am so for equal rights for women that I don't even use gender specific insults. Like, ever. That's why I'm pissed. You're calling me sexist when I'm actually a better example of a feminist than Crissa. The fact that Crissa does feminism wrong is the real problem here, not the word bitch.

I'll believe that you're a feminist when I see it.

Cite one instance of me saying anything ever that deviates from the belief that men and women are equal. If you can't, I'm a feminist because the feminist movement is about treating women equally with men. Now, there are some women (Crissa for example) that seem to think that means all the privileges of being a male and all the benefits historically associated with being a woman, and frankly those people are retards that need to die because they set back equality by making the whole movement look bad. Remember, feminism is about equality and if you get treated different for anything, you are not equal.

Yeah, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Actual feminists are ok with that. Actual feminists happen to not bring up the word feminism very often in the modern day because for the most part, men and women are treated equally and there's no reason to bring it up because the goal is being accomplished.

So yeah, [Citation needed].

[Crissa]

It's a minor point, but an online poll has several problems: It's positive reporting only; so only those who have a reason to vote do so. And words have multiple meanings: You can't call a person a term and then say 'well I didn't mean it that way'. If you don't mean it that way, don't say it that way.

Maybe you really did mean to call that guy a stick of fuel for the fire; but that's really immaterial, now isn't it?

'I didn't mean to steal the car, only the loose change in the seats, officer.'

-Crissa

[IGTN]

A feminist isn't someone who holds "the belief that men and women are [should be treated] equal[ly]". A feminist is an activist who works to oppose cases where women are being mistreated for being women, and often when men are being mistreated for being men, too. Being a feminist is not some neutral, natural state; it's an action.

Feminism is, also, very much alive today, with people who identify as feminist and are out fighting, for instance, the pay gap, casual sexist atmospheres driving women out of high-paying disciplines like engineering, and the cultural idea that a woman who only acts to protect herself at a bar or a (male) friend's home or on the street as much as a man would was "asking for it" if a man rapes her.

Show me the activism, and I'll believe you.

Also, you don't get to say "cite one instance where I did X" where one of the subjects under contention is whether or not one thing you did falls under X.

[ubernoob]

A feminist isn't someone who holds "the belief that men and women are [should be treated] equal[ly]". A feminist is an activist who works to oppose cases where women are being mistreated for being women, and often when men are being mistreated for being men, too. Being a feminist is not some neutral, natural state; it's an action.

Feminism is, also, very much alive today, with people who identify as feminist and are out fighting, for instance, the pay gap, casual sexist atmospheres driving women out of high-paying disciplines like engineering, and the cultural idea that a woman who only acts to protect herself at a bar or a (male) friend's home or on the street as much as a man would was "asking for it" if a man rapes her.

Show me the activism, and I'll believe you.

Also, you don't get to say "cite one instance where I did X" where one of the subjects under contention is whether or not one thing you did falls under X.

Right, I'm not an activist. I'm just a guy that happens to be a feminist. Demanding that someone be an activist in order to fall under an umbrella is retarded because being a feminist is just like being a democrat or republican; it's a set of beliefs. Don't be retarded.

[IGTN]

A belief means nothing unless it's turned into action. Unless you have some action, something to point to where you took time out of your day or money out of your wallet to promote feminism, you have no credibility to say that complaining about being called a bitch makes someone a worse feminist than you.

Not being overtly sexist only makes you not overtly sexist. It does not make you feminist, only being feminist does that.

[ubernoob]

A belief means nothing unless it's turned into action. Unless you have some action, something to point to where you took time out of your day or money out of your wallet to promote feminism, you have no credibility to say that complaining about being called a bitch makes someone a worse feminist than you.

Not being overtly sexist only makes you not overtly sexist. It does not make you feminist, only being feminist does that.

Right. I can't prove that I'm a feminist, and you can't prove I'm not, and you also can't prove that I'm sexist. Thus, the complaint at the accusation. Keep up, man.

[IGTN]

I'm keeping up just fine.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that you're a feminist, just like the burden of proof is on everyone else to prove you're a misogynist. Calling Crissa a bitch after she says that it comes across as sexist. That's the point under contention here. You're arguing that it's not because Crissa is a bad feminist to be complaining about it. But you haven't presented any evidence (personal experience, study, or anything) to prove that you would know a good feminist if she threw your drink in your face. You haven't claimed to have actually done anything feminist, you haven't claimed to have been involved in feminist communities, or anything.

So if you can't prove that you know anything about modern feminism as actually practiced by people who aren't you, that you know anything about who get together and do feminist activism, then you aren't actually in a position to know whether Crissa is (or I am) doing feminism wrong, so your argument that she's doing feminism wrong by complaining about being called a bitch after she said that it came off as sexist falls, and the argument that calling someone a bitch after they've said it comes off as sexist is a deliberately sexist act stands. Have I retraced the argument accurately?

Honestly, since this evidence is stuff that's hard to prove, just tell your stories, if you have any. How do you know modern feminism? Yes, I have expanded my requirements from what I asked earlier, since you said haven't done any feminist activism. Now I'm asking you if you know anyone who does well enough to have learned feminism from them.

[ubernoob]

I'm keeping up just fine.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that you're a feminist, just like the burden of proof is on everyone else to prove you're a misogynist. Calling Crissa a bitch after she says that it comes across as sexist. That's the point under contention here. You're arguing that it's not because Crissa is a bad feminist to be complaining about it. But you haven't presented any evidence (personal experience, study, or anything) to prove that you would know a good feminist if she threw your drink in your face. You haven't claimed to have actually done anything feminist, you haven't claimed to have been involved in feminist communities, or anything.

I claimed that I was a better feminist than Crissa, and that I can pretty easily prove. Here's the gist:
1) Crissa appears to bring up the issue of sex far too often.
2) Because of fact 1, Crissa is perceived to have a persecution complex, and as a result I disregard the majority of what she says as unbased crap.
3) Crissa claims to be a feminist. This makes me disrespect the movement.

You'll note that Crissa harmed the movement. I could quite literally never do anything and be a better feminist than Crissa.

So if you can't prove that you know anything about modern feminism as actually practiced by people who aren't you, that you know anything about who get together and do feminist activism, then you aren't actually in a position to know whether Crissa is (or I am) doing feminism wrong, so your argument that she's doing feminism wrong by complaining about being called a bitch after she said that it came off as sexist falls, and the argument that calling someone a bitch after they've said it comes off as sexist is a deliberately sexist act stands. Have I retraced the argument accurately?

Honestly, since this evidence is stuff that's hard to prove, just tell your stories, if you have any. How do you know modern feminism? Yes, I have expanded my requirements from what I asked earlier, since you said haven't done any feminist activism. Now I'm asking you if you know anyone who does well enough to have learned feminism from them.

Aside from treating women equal to men consistently and chewing the shit out of anyone that says actual sexist statements, I don't do a whole lot, really. I'm a broke college kid, so my influence is pretty limited to people I actually run into. Suffice to say, I've made many people angry when I've chewed them out for saying things like "Women need to know when to shut up." I do the same sort of actions whenever anyone says something anti-gay or racist, because I believe *everyone* should be treated equally until they prove that they need to die in a fire.

[Kaelik]

@Uber. You are wrong about feminism in a way that is painful, and also makes the conversation with IGTN worse:

Feminism is not about men being equal to women. Feminism is a) whatever feminists say it is, and b) Based on that, it is a movement to improve females place in the world relative to males.

Since females have mostly been worse off in 90% percent of locations throughout history it is a good thing in general to support up to a point. But many feminist think women are better than men, and so it's not always about equality.

That said, it is a movement, not activism, and not beliefs, so you can be a feminist without participating in activism, just by doing what you can as you live. But likewise, a mere set of beliefs about female equality does not make you a feminist. In fact, it may make you not a feminist, depending on which feminist you are talking to.

@Crissa. PAIN IN MY BRAIN!

Why don't you actually address my "tirade" against "equality" where I point out that famous feminist authors become famous often through arguing that other famous feminist authors are doing feminism wrong, and so obviously, claiming that some people do feminism wrong doesn't actually make you a sexist.

Also, since so many people here have spoken up, it's pretty clear that in English as it is understood by Denizens "bitch" is a sexist slur. If you know this and insist on using it, you are deliberately using a sexist slur.

Hey IGTN, you are the dumbest person alive.

People who have said that bitch is a sexist slur: You, Ganbare.

People who probably believe you but haven't said it yet, or who have decided to pass on the issue: Crissa, Ceiling Cat, maybe Robby Pants.

People who have stated it is not sexist: Maj, myself, Uber, Mean Liar.

You haven't even gotten a majority on people who have actually commented, much less "so many people."

[Zinegata]

And continuing the Crissa-style right wing bible-thumping debate as in the other thread...

Crissa->

How dare you be such a sexist! All CeilingCat wants is to be called a "she" rather than a "he". Can you not be polite?!

God works in mysterious ways, and we should not condemn people just because they are transgendered.

Your constant attacks on the rights of the transgendered can only be considered sexist.

Repent your sins. Save your immortal soul!

[violence in the media]

You know, red-faced defenses of one's integrity usually don't achieve the stated (desired?) effect. If you have to tell people that you're not an -ist of some form, as opposed to simply demonstrating that through your actions, then you might want to review what you consider an -ist to be. It's not all Klan meetings and spousal abuse.

And if your refuge against charges of -isms is the presentation of a general pattern of misanthropic or sociopathic tendencies, then you might want to review your humanity. And up your fucking dosage.

[ubernoob]

You know, red-faced defenses of one's integrity usually don't achieve the stated (desired?) effect. If you have to tell people that you're not an -ist of some form, as opposed to simply demonstrating that through your actions, then you might want to review what you consider an -ist to be. It's not all Klan meetings and spousal abuse.

And if your refuge against charges of -isms is the presentation of a general pattern of misanthropic or sociopathic tendencies, then you might want to review your humanity. And up your fucking dosage.

Who is this addressed to?

[Kaelik]

You know, red-faced defenses of one's integrity usually don't achieve the stated (desired?) effect. If you have to tell people that you're not an -ist of some form, as opposed to simply demonstrating that through your actions, then you might want to review what you consider an -ist to be. It's not all Klan meetings and spousal abuse.

And if your refuge against charges of -isms is the presentation of a general pattern of misanthropic or sociopathic tendencies, then you might want to review your humanity. And up your fucking dosage.

You do realize that this shit happened because I was gang banged by a bunch of posters who all just started making completely baseless accusations of sexism and racism with absolutely nothing to back them up whatsoever, that was then followed by me demanding examples and being faced with nothing but more accusations without examples (finally culminating in "you used the word bitch once" and "you disagree with people")?

I mean, hypothetically, if, since it just happened to be only four posters with the baseless lying, Uber, myself, Zinegata, and some fourth aggreived party just started making posts like this:

Guys, the thing you have to understand about Vitm, is that he's a 12 year old Nazi bastard.

The reason he gave for killing all the Jews being a good thing is because "review your fucking humanity."

He also said Kike once. [Two posts later, without ever admitting that you never said Kike, or that the mass murder part is a blatant lie, I will resort to pointing to an instance where you accidentally assumed I was not a Jew for a post, and how that proves you hate Jews.]

Would you then bring it on yourself to review what Nazism actually is and blame yourself for you actions not demonstrating that you are not a Nazi? Or maybe, just maybe, you might want to try to, when reading Crissa's bullshit, actually find a single fucking post where what she claims I said actually reflects what I actually said.

[CatharzGodfoot]

@Uber. You are wrong about feminism in a way that is painful, and also makes the conversation with IGTN worse:

Feminism is not about men being equal to women. Feminism is a) whatever feminists say it is, and b) Based on that, it is a movement to improve females place in the world relative to males.

How do you know that somebody isn't a feminist if feminism is whatever feminists claim it is? Is this some sort of 'no true feminist' fallacy?

Or are you claiming that you alone get to define feminism (which would imply that you're the 'one true feminist')?

If we take a look a sources other than Kaelik, a different (and much wider) set of definitions emerges:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
http://www.conservapedia.com/Feminism

[violence in the media]

Guys, the thing you have to understand about Vitm, is that he's a 12 year old Nazi bastard.

The reason he gave for killing all the Jews being a good thing is because "review your fucking humanity."

He also said Kike once. [Two posts later, without ever admitting that you never said Kike, or that the mass murder part is a blatant lie, I will resort to pointing to an instance where you accidentally assumed I was not a Jew for a post, and how that proves you hate Jews.]

Would you then bring it on yourself to review what Nazism actually is and blame yourself for you actions not demonstrating that you are not a Nazi? Or maybe, just maybe, you might want to try to, when reading Crissa's bullshit, actually find a single fucking post where what she claims I said actually reflects what I actually said.

I'm trying hard not to laugh, and largely failing. I'm sorry, Kaelik. Look, I get what you're saying with your example here, and I might actually care if my TGD rep impacted my life in any meaningful way, but as it is, I really can't get that worked up about it.

If you wanted to go on some extended smear campaign against me, that would be annoying, but ultimately meaningless as well. Unless you could get fbmf to random-ban me for some trumped up reason, I would still be able to derive value from TGD from the insights it provides on gaming and, occasionally, other subjects.

Look, people will perceive us as they will perceive us. With luck (and effort) they will perceive us at our best.

[Crissa]

Ya know, I never called out anyone for using the word 'bitch'.

-Crissa

[Kaelik]

Ya know, I never called out anyone for using the word 'bitch'.

Not sure what exactly you are talking about, but as for my random "Lying like Crissa and Ceiling Cat" it was mostly just modeled after specific Ceiling Cat post.

[Kaelik]

@Uber. You are wrong about feminism in a way that is painful, and also makes the conversation with IGTN worse:

Feminism is not about men being equal to women. Feminism is a) whatever feminists say it is, and b) Based on that, it is a movement to improve females place in the world relative to males.

How do you know that somebody isn't a feminist if feminism is whatever feminists claim it is? Is this some sort of 'no true feminist' fallacy?

Or are you claiming that you alone get to define feminism (which would imply that you're the 'one true feminist')?

If we take a look a sources other than Kaelik, a different (and much wider) set of definitions emerges:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
http://www.conservapedia.com/Feminism

I'm saying that Feminism, like everything else means what people agree it means. I don't hold any more weight than anyone else in that respect, except that I probably talk about feminism more often than most people.

Unspoken premise is that people who aren't feminists don't really care what feminism means.

The point being that feminism wasn't named feminism because it was about both sex/genders. It was named feminism because it deals primarily with the state of the female ones.