The Shadowrun Situation

[Clutch9800]

The fight is not really over whether the company collapses, but when it collapses, and who gets what amount of money while it does.

I have a feeling there is going to be a Deus Ex Machina as far as IMR goes. Don't ask me why, I just do.

Clutch

[crizh]

Interestingly, Kid Chameleon has blamed the previous lawyer for the irregularities with the corporate paperwork over on Dumpshock.

Hard to tell if that is true, KC did compile the 'draws' graph but he's backing Loren now.

[Username17]

Interestingly, Kid Chameleon has blamed the previous lawyer for the irregularities with the corporate paperwork over on Dumpshock.

Hard to tell if that is true, KC did compile the 'draws' graph but he's backing Loren now.

No. The Draws graphs were compiled by Phil deLuca. KC and he have had some public shouting matches at each other. Both of them are assholes, and neither is very bright. But very roughly, KC has been in Loren Coleman's camp the entire time, while mostly Phil DeLuca has been opposed, but in a weird way because he isn't good at making logical arguments.

I have a feeling there is going to be a Deus Ex Machina as far as IMR goes. Don't ask me why, I just do.

That's entirely possible. I mean, let's be real here: IMR's position is awful. They went for a pure electronic printing of Spells & Chrome because they could not afford to rub $5000 together to get a physical printing of it made. Meanwhile, they don't have to pay the royalties on that book for the moment, and as far as I know they aren't doing it. But they are running up a royalty bill, if they ever did print it for real, they'd owe even more money. And they are of course being taken to court for owing WildFire thirty seven thousand dollars that they are delinquent on from last year.

IMR has negative money. By a substantial amount. And the things they are doing to get money now are actually piling up red ink on the "owed" side of the equation even faster.

But let's be real for the moment: for a few hundred thousand dollars, you could pay off all immediately burning debts, print a new run of some decently selling books, and get a couple of new books written up right with brand spanking new art and a sweet layout. That's... not a lot of money for an investor. If anyone out there is a venture capitalist and simply decides to angel invest to save Battletech or save Shadowrun or whatever, they could do so on six figures.

The question is really: why would they want to?

IMR is a corporate shell. Its logo isn't worth anything, most fans don't even know it exists. IMR doesn't own any printing presses or monopolize any distribution channels. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't even own Battletech or Shadowrun. They are seriously in the red. You could just take the same money and make a new corporation and lease the rights from Topps for the products you wanted. Starting up a new company would be cheaper than paying all of IMR's back wages and defaulted contracts. So why wouldn't you do that instead?

-Username17

[mean_liar]

It is illegal to perjure yourself, even in civil cases. So a civil suit could bring out someone lying under oath, which is a criminal offense.

Are you suggesting someone has perjured themselves, or is this just hypothetical?

Did I mention names? Or are you just as asshole?

It remains illegal to perjure yourself, even in civil cases. It is also illegal to shoot a man in the face for no reason...

BUT DID I JUST ENTICE A MAN TO MURDER?!

[A Man In Black]

IMR is a corporate shell. Its logo isn't worth anything, most fans don't even know it exists. IMR doesn't own any printing presses or monopolize any distribution channels. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't even own Battletech or Shadowrun. They are seriously in the red. You could just take the same money and make a new corporation and lease the rights from Topps for the products you wanted. Starting up a new company would be cheaper than paying all of IMR's back wages and defaulted contracts. So why wouldn't you do that instead?

There's more than just the red ink. Coleman et al. is a liability, and the remaining staff is not well-liked among the people you'd need to go out and get to get any new products written. Anyone who was involved in running the company is long gone; you have Coleman's family and friends wearing three hats to get anything done now.

Such an investor would be making an entirely new company under an old name owned by a known crook. Why would any sane person do that?

[Clutch9800]

IMR is a corporate shell. Its logo isn't worth anything, most fans don't even know it exists. IMR doesn't own any printing presses or monopolize any distribution channels. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't even own Battletech or Shadowrun. They are seriously in the red. You could just take the same money and make a new corporation and lease the rights from Topps for the products you wanted. Starting up a new company would be cheaper than paying all of IMR's back wages and defaulted contracts. So why wouldn't you do that instead?

There's more than just the red ink. Coleman et al. is a liability, and the remaining staff is not well-liked among the people you'd need to go out and get to get any new products written. Anyone who was involved in running the company is long gone; you have Coleman's family and friends wearing three hats to get anything done now.

Such an investor would be making an entirely new company under an old name owned by a known crook. Why would any sane person do that?

I respectfully disagree.

There are a lot of people in the Fan-Base that associate the people tthat bring us the games with the games.

Here's what I would hypothetically do.

I will agree with Frank that the IMR brand in and of itself doesn't have any worth. It's also true that they don't actually own the IP's. But they do control the story behind the ip's.

They could go to the fan-base for money by selling things like personal or player character canonizations, unit names, custom BattleMechs, et al.

They could actually put a price on retconning the Jihad out of the BattleTech story-line. That alone could raise a buttload of liquidity from the more "dedicated" (read: obsessed) fans.

They could raffle off an all expense paid trip to GenCon for a lucky fan. Said fan would get to spend the entire time "in the booth" being an "insider".

Remember, a "place in the inner circle" was what got a lot of these initial investors to pony up cash in the first place.

Are all of these things cheesy? Shilling? Borderline un-ethical? Sure. But bear in mind that this is life during wartime. It ain't no party, it ain't no disco, it ain't no fooling around.

Now, granted, they can't do this in the five days left in May, but if they get an extension then the sky is the limit.

Just bear in mind that there are a lot of fans out there who would happily ante up for a chance at being "in the gaming industry".

It just goes back to the leadership principle of "If you treat a loser like a winner, they will do pretty much anything you ask them to."

Ya'll have a great day!

Clutch

[A Man In Black]

I respectfully disagree.

There are a lot of people in the Fan-Base that associate the people tthat bring us the games with the games.

They are generally pliable people. They've weathered such changes before.

The rest of your cockamamie plans to turn the fans' "loyalty" into hard cash are a good laugh, though.

[Centurion13]

...They could raffle off an all expense paid trip to GenCon for a lucky fan. Said fan would get to spend the entire time "in the booth" being an "insider".

Remember, a "place in the inner circle" was what got a lot of these initial investors to pony up cash in the first place.

....Just bear in mind that there are a lot of fans out there who would happily ante up for a chance at being "in the gaming industry".

It just goes back to the leadership principle of "If you treat a loser like a winner, they will do pretty much anything you ask them to."

Clutch

This reminds me of something I posted recently, a quote from CS Lewis:

"Of all passions the passion for the Inner Ring is most skillful in making a man who is not yet a very bad man do very bad things."

What Clutch suggests may very well come to pass. It will burn a lot of bridges - I mean, when you put a price tag on a fan deciding where the story will go, that just wrecks the whole concept of 'canon' - but hell, they've already shown they've got... different priorities... than that of a game company.

[Edit: Wow, Clutch, ya got me. I have no speculation chops at all compared to what you just trotted out. Damn, dude. I got nothin'.]

Cent13

[Panzerfaust 150]

Perfectly plausible, and they may do it anyhow. Lawyers don't come cheap and IMR/CGL/et al. are going to need them in spades, and soon. As someone on the thread already pointed out to me, it all stops when the lawyers stop getting paid. Till then? Who knows.

[Taharqa]

The question is really: why would they want to?

IMR is a corporate shell. Its logo isn't worth anything, most fans don't even know it exists. IMR doesn't own any printing presses or monopolize any distribution channels. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't even own Battletech or Shadowrun. They are seriously in the red. You could just take the same money and make a new corporation and lease the rights from Topps for the products you wanted. Starting up a new company would be cheaper than paying all of IMR's back wages and defaulted contracts. So why wouldn't you do that instead?

-Username17

Are you familiar with the concept of human capital? There are still lots of people at CGL with experience on the production side of things and who have familiarity with the various lines. A smart investor might say, "well these guys can't bookkeep themselves out of a paper bag, but they can quickly produce positive cashflow on my investment, so long as I keep a tight hand on the money bag - and they are so desperate for cash that I can get in cheaply."

Having said that, I don't think the angel investor scenario is that likely, because frankly this business is pretty small potatoes. Nonetheless, the same logic applies to Topps. Your assertions about the impossibility of IMR/CGL getting a license renewal ignore the powerful effect of inertia, particularly in large bureaucratic organizations. IMR/CGL is a known quantity with existing experience in turning the two licenses into products and revenue. Switching the license to another licensee has all kinds of transaction costs for Topps, not the least of which is the inherent risk of uncertainty.

[Taharqa]

It is illegal to perjure yourself, even in civil cases. So a civil suit could bring out someone lying under oath, which is a criminal offense.

Are you suggesting someone has perjured themselves, or is this just hypothetical?

Did I mention names? Or are you just as asshole?

The answers to those two questions are hardly mutually exclusive.

[Username17]

KC is not that clever in his arguments at the best of times. But in his latest bout with Ancient History, he trips himself up pretty badly.

In defending Loren Coleman, he admitted that the ownership papers were never filed, and now claims that tax forms have not been properly sen to the owners in the last... three... years. I have reason to believe very strongly that at least some of the owners have received tax forms, but it certainly wouldn't be any better if Loren Coleman hadn't been giving them tax forms. In fact, that would be even worse!

If people were getting paid on time and in full, and tax forms were going out, and the paperwork hadn't been filed properly for ownership sharing, I honestly would think nothing of it. People screw up paperwork like that all the time. But KC is now claiming that he hasn't been getting paid or treated like an owner in the years since the paperwork was mysteriously not filed.

What gets me is how very much like a Multilevel Marketing Scheme this looks. People buy in to the pyramid as "owners" and then they can get some share of what they help sell, but the glorious leader still keeps all the records and all the receipts. KC has me convinced: he is a sucker.

-Username17

[Taharqa]

In defending Loren Coleman, he admitted that the ownership papers were never filed, and now claims that tax forms have not been properly sen to the owners in the last... three... years. I have reason to believe very strongly that at least some of the owners have received tax forms, but it certainly wouldn't be any better if Loren Coleman hadn't been giving them tax forms. In fact, that would be even worse!

-Username17

Strictly speaking then it didn't matter what KC "tripped up" about. You would have judged him a sucker either way, because in your view either answer means the same thing.

Brilliant!

EDIT: sorry, quoted the wrong part of your statement above. Corrected now.

[Username17]

The point is that if someone says:

"Tax forms have gone out, but no one has filed the paperwork to actually register the ownership with the state."

That implies either gross incompetence or malfeasance. But coming out to deny part of that... and denying that the taxes were done properly? What the hell?! That's denying the part that was a possible positiv feature of the situation and confirming the part that is sketchy as hell.

-Username17

[duo31]

@Frank fix link tags pls

LLC's do allow for non-governing members. but terms of said membership need to be spelled out in the incorporation papers. This would allow for 'silent' members to be brought on board and not have to refile the LLC. They would be separate contracts between the LLC and the second class 'members'.

Whatever happens, I hope that we start to get some good SR books again.

Tarq, keep playing devil's advocate. Makes my day go faster reading all of the fireworks.

[Clutch9800]

Wow, Clutch, ya got me. I have no speculation chops at all compared to what you just trotted out. Damn, dude. I got nothin'.

Whoa there Hombre. I am not speculating on what anyone is going to do, I'm speaking in a purely hypothetical sense as to what eye would do. That said, I'm shallow and self centered, and if I was painted into a corner, and was watching 6 years of absolute screwdriver work spinning down the drain, I'd do whatever it took to keep the company afloat. Notwithstanding the fact that (again hypothetically) eye had been the one that painted myself into that corner.

Are you familiar with the concept of human capital?

As far as I'm concerned, CGL has one piece of human capital. That is Randall Bills. Say what you'd like about him, but the man works like a slave for these games, and has done so since before there even was a CGL. He isn't in this for the money, because if he was he'd have been gone a long time ago. If some take offense that he once used the hyperbole that he was the "Messiah of BattleTech", that's mainly because it's for all intents and purposes true. It has been his guiding vision that has brought the game back from what most folks thought was the grave. Now, he's certainly made some mistakes along the way, and I'm sure that he'd love for the business to be so successful that he could send every one of his kids to Harvard, but that just makes him human, not some Gordan Gecko.

Anyway, enough out of me. I'm going fishing before it gets too dark.

Clutch

[Orion]

Taharga, the amount of human capital IMR has is irrelevant. The new corporate overlords can jolly well hire anybody from IMR they thought was actually good.

[cthulhu]

Are you familiar with the concept of human capital? There are still lots of people at CGL with experience on the production side of things and who have familiarity with the various lines.

Yes, the concept of human capital is well understood - and that's exactly the point. The human capital value has no particular loyalty to IMR and can easily be poached away.

You'd just do that, rather than assuming a messy net of legal liabilities that you don't understand.

[Crissa]

Is there anyone who has an exclusive contract with IMR?

Someone here is claiming that IMR has human capital, and from what I heard, they were using freelancers - which would be pretty much the exact opposite of having human capital.

-Crissa

[Taharqa]

Taharga, the amount of human capital IMR has is irrelevant. The new corporate overlords can jolly well hire anybody from IMR they thought was actually good.

In theory, yeah. In practice, I think its a lot more messy than that. And as Clutch pointed out above, Randall Bills is the most important piece of human capital and his situation is a bit more complicated.

Is there anyone who has an exclusive contract with IMR?

Someone here is claiming that IMR has human capital, and from what I heard, they were using freelancers - which would be pretty much the exact opposite of having human capital.

They have several employees, including two line developers (Herb Beas for Battletech and Jason Hardy for Shadowrun) and an assistant line developer (Ben Rome for Battletech).

[Crissa]

Are those two people indispensable? And do they have exclusive contracts?

-Crissa

[Ganbare Gincun]

In theory, yeah. In practice, I think its a lot more messy than that. And as Clutch pointed out above, Randall Bills is the most important piece of human capital and his situation is a bit more complicated.

What exactly makes Randall Bills the most important piece of human capital? Based on what is transpiring right now, he's either a fraudster, or he's grossly incompetent. What value does a person like that bring to the table? Who the fuck wants to rely on someone like that?

They have several employees, including two line developers (Herb Beas for Battletech and Jason Hardy for Shadowrun) and an assistant line developer (Ben Rome for Battletech).

Randall, Herb, Jason, and Ben make four people. How many freelancers did their company rely on to produce content? And how many do you think that they will be able to hire once the dust settles?

[martian_bob]

Randall, Herb, Jason, and Ben make four people. How many freelancers did their company rely on to produce content? And how many do you think that they will be able to hire once the dust settles?

I think that's the better question. Even if IMR manages to hang on to any of the licenses, what's going to be the quality of the product produced? Some of the (IMHO) best Shadowrun stuff was produced by people who've said either publicly or privately that they won't work with anyone at that company ever again. And how can they attract any decent new talent now that it's widely known that when the going gets tough, the tough apparently don't pay their talent?

[cthulhu]

Taharga, the amount of human capital IMR has is irrelevant. The new corporate overlords can jolly well hire anybody from IMR they thought was actually good.

In theory, yeah. In practice, I think its a lot more messy than that. And as Clutch pointed out above, Randall Bills is the most important piece of human capital and his situation is a bit more complicated.

Is there anyone who has an exclusive contract with IMR?

Someone here is claiming that IMR has human capital, and from what I heard, they were using freelancers - which would be pretty much the exact opposite of having human capital.

They have several employees, including two line developers (Herb Beas for Battletech and Jason Hardy for Shadowrun) and an assistant line developer (Ben Rome for Battletech).

If IMR is liquidated, exclusive contracts are a joke. If the license is not renewed, liquidation is assured. Do these people have any particular loyalty?

It's more risky on the Battletech front where there are stronger personal loyalties, but by all accounts battletech makes less money.

[Blasted]

Really? Given the amount of material they're publishing for battletech (especially the XTROs which smell of "Get us out of this mess") I would have concluded that battletech is their money spinner.

In any case, I don't think that the community would care who publishes, as long as reasonable material is published.