Core Principle: Your Fantasy Economy is Bullshit

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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar »

Crissa wrote:However, a fantasy setting has fantasy teleportation, fantasy levitation, fantasy beasts of burden and fantasy means of production. So either it's impossible to compare, and we shouldn't try writing fantasy at all, or we can try to compare, and we can try to write fantasy, eh?
Again, the problem is that is IS impossible to compare but that doesn't preclude discussion, it only precludes shoe-pounding pronouncements about how starvation is common or day laborers earn X. Any fantasy setting with integrated magic is going to be built on a mountain of assumptions. The important part is to think it through and try to imagine what your assumptions are and what they do, not to come up with hard statements derived from the fucking gear cost lists from the DnD PHB.

What kind of campaign has it's world economics defined by a bullshit throwaway table like that? Why would you spend that much intellectual effort on something so obvious pointless?

Again, the important bit is the general discussion and pointed questions about economics and what happens when you have Teleportation Circles, or Shrink Item, or Fabricate, or an open-ended magic system like in DnD. Frank's assertion that an army of wizards doesn't mean shit only means that Frank feels like he has an ironclad set of reasons, but frankly I can't take them seriously when "a mage is just a factory and a factory doesn't change economics" seems to be his fall-back position with respect to magic, when magic is about as open as you want it to be - wish economies, possible obviation of the construction industry, access to immediate mass manufacture of high-end finished goods, and essentially limitless potential define magical possibilities in a fantasy game.

Frank can dictate for his own game and setting, but again - it's built on so many assumptions that it's not portable. That's why the conclusions aren't as important as the questions.
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Post by Alansmithee »

Crissa wrote:However, a fantasy setting has fantasy teleportation, fantasy levitation, fantasy beasts of burden and fantasy means of production. So either it's impossible to compare, and we shouldn't try writing fantasy at all, or we can try to compare, and we can try to write fantasy, eh?

-Crissa
We can't quantify what those things cost. Therefore, we can't compare them. People are trying to take modern-day dollar values of various goods and directly put them into a fantasy setting. What stone costs now has nothing to do with what stone would cost in a fantasy setting (especially considering that the vast majority of people who actually would need stone in a large quantity could either produce/pay to have it produced instantly, from nothing, out of thin air).

Also, from what I gather, one of the points that some people are trying to make is that wizards wouldn't be involved in the economy, so I don't see how on one hand you can say wizards won't bother creating stone/granite because it's not worth their time, but they're going to spend their time instead setting up teleportation chains, levitating, and taming/creating fantastic beasts to move this stone.
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Post by K »

virgileso wrote:All this talk got me fascinated as to the logistics of a wizard going solo.

Castle Construction Employment: http://history.howstuffworks.com/middle ... astle5.htm
Modern Castle Construction w/Schematics: http://www.guedelon.fr/en/the-guedelon- ... re_01.html

It took about twenty minutes, but judging the curtain walls to be three meters thick, the primary tower to be five meters thick, and some other rounding assumptions; the entire castle requires a bit less than 30,000 cubic meters of material.

If a very independent 12th level wizard decided he wanted a stone castle, only occasionally using fabricate to use the trees on location or disintegrate to dig out the moat, it'll take him about 13,550 castings of his two highest level spell slots. He'll still have the spells of 4th level and lower to enjoy life with, & his actual work day isn't even an hour and a half (sleeping like everyone else doesn't count).

From what's they're figuring, it'll take 50 artisans 25 years of labour to construct their castle. It'll take the wizard about six years, by himself, using essentially just wall of stone; though he could reinforce the whole thing with an iron sheath without changing the time frame at all.

EDIT: Now, I have no idea what the time frame would look if the wizard instead hired a bunch of mud farmers with wagons to carry transmuted rock to fill in a wooden mould.
Good work on the math. I love it when math meet fantasy RPGs.

Not to piss in your cheerios, but you could use planar binding to get a dao who can cast wall of stone at will and get the project done over a lazy afternoon.

Wall of Stone merges with existing stone, so as long as you are willing to go overboard on the stonework supports you shouldn't need other spells.
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Post by virgil »

I love it when math meet fantasy RPGs
Hard to tell if you're being factitious or not; especially since I'm usually looked at with derision by the local gamers for doing stuff like this.

Don't worry about the dao pissing in my cheerios. I had considered the idea of binding something that could cast the needed spell at will, but I tend to do much of my math using only the core set of books; and my math shows enough numbers that someone could figure out that it would take three work days (21.7 hours of continual casting) for something like a dao to do the job.

Using the same assumptions and similar math, you could extrapolate construction time with a lyre of building at a good site to build; about 520 cumulative hours of play. The actual time drastically depends on how long one can play before having to stop and then be forced to wait a week. If we assume a work day of 8 hours before fatigue forces a stop, then it'd take a touch less than a year and a half.
Last edited by virgil on Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar »

Considering the cost of a lyre of building, having seven around and a federal bard to do all your constructing seems do-able - he'd do it eight hours a day and swap lyres.

That gets him to two-and-a-half months.
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Post by Danchild »

Use a simulacrum of the bard. Does not need to eat, reast or be paid. Can work non-stop until completion. Also avoids intentional sabotage such as structural weak points or secret passages.

You can then use planar binding to staff your new castle with critters like Djinni, Efreet and Azer. That should take care of your furnishings and upkeep. If they do not agree to work for free...Use simulacrum again.

Fully furnished castle in around 3 and a half weeks. Awesome.
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Post by Fucks »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Matt Riggsby wrote a bunch of articles about low-tech economies and how certain fantasy elements interacted with them. Should I see if I can dig those up?
Yes, please.
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Post by Username17 »

I think enslaving Dao, while possible, is a lot more costly in the long run than drafting peasants.

-Username17
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Post by K »

FrankTrollman wrote:I think enslaving Dao, while possible, is a lot more costly in the long run than drafting peasants.

-Username17
Maybe. I mean, there is an unwritten rule that binding things leads to them trying to kick your ass later, but on the face of it you have one spell for a guy who can cast Wall of Stone at will. A day's work and you have a castle.

The essential problem is not "can wizards out-compete any economic action of the peasant?", but "why would they perform any economic action?"

Selling spells or looting tombs is far more lucrative, and for people who can enslave anyone they want, create anything they want, and basically do anything they want, there is precious little reason for them to help anyone do anything. I mean, if you need money you can cast divination spells to find unguarded treasure or precious metals. If you need women, you can bind succubi or just use the money for whores. If you need power, there isn't much more power than being a mid-level wizard when you can cast a spell and impersonate the king or charm him.

There's no incentive to usher in a golden age for the peasants. Even wizards who are altruistic know that their time is better spent preparing for the inevitable zombie/vampire/shadow/demon/elemental apocalypse, so setting up clean wells and durable clothing and housing is just a pointless exercise when people can do that for themselves.
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Post by MGuy »

K wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:I think enslaving Dao, while possible, is a lot more costly in the long run than drafting peasants.

-Username17
Maybe. I mean, there is an unwritten rule that binding things leads to them trying to kick your ass later, but on the face of it you have one spell for a guy who can cast Wall of Stone at will. A day's work and you have a castle.

The essential problem is not "can wizards out-compete any economic action of the peasant?", but "why would they perform any economic action?"

Selling spells or looting tombs is far more lucrative, and for people who can enslave anyone they want, create anything they want, and basically do anything they want, there is precious little reason for them to help anyone do anything. I mean, if you need money you can cast divination spells to find unguarded treasure or precious metals. If you need women, you can bind succubi or just use the money for whores. If you need power, there isn't much more power than being a mid-level wizard when you can cast a spell and impersonate the king or charm him.

There's no incentive to usher in a golden age for the peasants. Even wizards who are altruistic know that their time is better spent preparing for the inevitable zombie/vampire/shadow/demon/elemental apocalypse, so setting up clean wells and durable clothing and housing is just a pointless exercise when people can do that for themselves.
I disagree with this. The best thing any altruistic wizard can do is to teach as many "worthy" people they can to use magic. With magic being obviously so much better than "Everything else" I cannot fathom a reason that everyone who has even incremental talent in any mental stat to not enroll in Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, or Wizard School. There are settings that have kingdoms that concentrate on having more mages than everyone else. Even with the inclusion of having slaves doing the ion's share of the work there is no reason that the same force that changes the face of War, Belief Systems, and quite likely the ruling class wouldn't have a long running effect on education and economy. We're talking about people who live in a world, know that magic exists, and that the BEST of the BEST know this magic. Why wouldn't everyone that had any power to, merchants, artisans, each and every noble, etc all try to harness it?
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Post by Danchild »

There's no incentive to usher in a golden age for the peasants. Even wizards who are altruistic know that their time is better spent preparing for the inevitable zombie/vampire/shadow/demon/elemental apocalypse, so setting up clean wells and durable clothing and housing is just a pointless exercise when people can do that for themselves.
So they can affect the economy, but they choose not to. Why would they even hang around to defend the world from an apocalypse? They can just plane shift away to an unspoiled world, after all. What is the incentive in risking their lives to save everyone, really?
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Post by Crissa »

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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

K wrote: Selling spells or looting tombs is far more lucrative, and for people who can enslave anyone they want, create anything they want, and basically do anything they want, there is precious little reason for them to help anyone do anything. I mean, if you need money you can cast divination spells to find unguarded treasure or precious metals. If you need women, you can bind succubi or just use the money for whores. If you need power, there isn't much more power than being a mid-level wizard when you can cast a spell and impersonate the king or charm him.
Unguarded treasure? Yeah, right. Cause you see a lot of dragons dying of old age.

Honestly playing with the economy is a good idea for wizards who want to make money. Looting tombs is dangerous, and selling spells requires that you find someone actually willing to buy the spell in question. While it seems easy, waiting around for someone to need a legend lore, and you may be waiting quite a while. And for low level spells people will likely totally go to a low level caster instead, because having a high caster level detect magic cast is totally useless. Selling spells just isn't as profitable as it sounds simply because demand is very sporatic. Most of your time is spent sitting on your ass.

Trying to impersonate the king or charm him is going to be a tough thing to do and probably gets you killed. It's a lot easier to just make money as a merchant selling crap that you know there's a big demand for that can be sold through brokers. I mean you can totally go to the iron merchant who normally buys iron from a mine and say "I'll sell you my iron at a 10% discount" and you've got an easy transaction and the merchant handles the rest.

More importantly, he can become an ongoing client that you refill with iron now and then for a minimal amount of time invested.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Okay, first article:
What Would a Cart-Load of Treasure Do to a Fantasy World?

In a high-fantasy game, the heroes end up hauling back six cartloads of magical treasure and gold. They now currently have something in the order of a few hundred million times the normal wealth of a typical member of the peasantry and they are about to spend a lot of it. How is this going to impact the local economy? Realistically, what impact (if any) would this have on the regional economy? National economy? How much money would be in said economy to purchase the dozen +1 swords they have that they cannot use? This sort of thing.
--K. David Ladage


The presence of magic takes us well beyond "the fields we know," to say nothing of going beyond the accounting practices usually used to value and tax them. However, even mad necromancers and gals in chainmail gotta eat, so just as the politics and society of traditional fantasy games attempt to model, or at least give the impression of, real ancient and Medieval societies, we'll answer the question in terms of the economies of real ancient and Medieval societies. As a starting point, we'll take the conditions as given: assume six carts laden with booty. We'll call that 1,000 pounds of treasure per cart, a reasonable capacity for a modest wain, or 6,000 pounds altogether. What impact that has depends in part on the composition of the treasure, so let's look at what, historically, that much treasure might buy.

At the low end of the treasure scale is a load of pure silver in bullion or coin. Six thousand pounds of silver is, for example, about a tenth of the annual production of the Athenian silver mines at Laurion, the products of which allowed the Athenians to float a sizable war fleet over several years leading up to the Persian invasion of 490 BC, build the Parthenon, and in large part fund the construction of a very small empire. To put it another way, it's a very respectable personal fortune, a nice but small boost to an influential city-state, and pocket change to an empire. Several cartloads of silver coin would be enough to build and furnish a modest castle, purchase a small feudal territory, or buy and equip a few ships. It's enough to set someone up in very nice style, but won't unbalance anything.

If the carts are full of pure gold, they'll contain between a quarter and a half million coins at typical sizes. Your heroes are in possession of immense personal wealth, enough with which to buy a mid-size Medieval kingdom. Based on their income, counties such as those surrounding 12th-century Barcelona or Girona, not including the towns themselves and monastic and church lands, could plausibly be had for 400 pounds of gold; with that much gold, you could buy 15 such territories (at that point, the question becomes whether or not you could find willing sellers). Indeed, that may very well be more gold than many Medieval kingdoms possessed, although it's not quite so much on an ancient imperial scale. For example, the Byzantine emperor Anastasius is said to have amassed over 300,000 pounds of gold in the imperial treasury (although that amount is likely exaggerated), and his successor Justinian bought off the Persians for five years with about as much gold as our heroes are carting off from the dragon hoard. The impact of that much money will depend on how and where it's spent.

One thing to pay attention to is how much of it the PCs get to keep. There may be taxes, pointed requests for loans from royalty, and other not-very-productive drains on the find. The English law of treasure trove, dating back to the 12th century, entitled the crown to a large share of any found riches. Then again, fantasy kingdoms may not have such laws, or they may be unevenly enforced if they do. It's also possible that bandits, nomadic raiders, and underfunded noblemen will decide to take the money by force, requiring the PCs to spend a large chunk of their cash on mercenaries to defend it, essentially destroying the treasure in order to save it. Thieves will appear in direct proportion to rumors of the magnitude of the treasure, but open warfare by more-or-less legitimate rulers to seize the treasure is unlikely, particularly if neighboring countries are relatively large and powerful. Their rulers will compare the likely cost of attacking another country with the likely benefit of seizing the treasure (minus whatever the PCs have already spent, graft and skimming some off the top by the soldiers who actually lay hands on it first) and probably decide against it. Still, they'll shed no tears if some of the money makes its way into their coffers. The Dutch and British, for example, didn't try to wrestle away Spain's lucrative gold and silver mines in the New World, but the massive production of precious metals led to the golden age of piracy. So while large-scale attacks are a moderate possibility for particularly lawless settings, it's unlikely for most historical periods, so let's again assume that they keep most of it.

If they just keep it and decide to live moderately comfortable lives, there's still not going to be much of an impact of any kind. If the money doesn't enter the economy, it may as well not exist. The life of Bilbo Baggins, though fictional, is a reasonable model; despite having gold from Smaug's hoard and a mithril coat worth more than the Shire itself (though he didn't know that), he lived in comfortable semi-retirement with lots of stories being circulated about his wealth but without altering the economy of his surroundings. Even the largest treasure, spent slowly enough, can be absorbed into the economy without having a tremendous effect (in fact, the Medieval European economy needed a steady influx of new gold from Africa and a few local sources to balance a general flow of gold eastward in trade). If the PCs settle in a very isolated region, it's possible that moderately intelligent peasants will take advantage of being the sole suppliers of day-to-day necessities and charge the PCs absurdly inflated prices even if the PCs are trying to economize. Very intelligent peasants will moderate their greed once realize that the people they're trying to gouge got their gold by an aptitude for extreme bloody violence.

But that's boring. What if the PCs want to spend like there's no tomorrow? If they want to spend all their money at once on the most expensive items they can find, they can send off for matching vorpal glaive-guisarme-voulges or what-have-you, but the cash will end up wherever enchanters hang out. Such impact as the treasure will have will be in a region far away, with some of it scraped off by the considerable friction of long-range commerce in a low-tech setting.

If they spend their money on the things that historical rich people have spent their money on (fine clothes, large homes, temples with priests well-disposed towards the people who built them, etc.), the likely local effect is that the PCs will accelerate the pace of economic activity around where they settle, quite possibly transforming the economy of the area. Even if they settle in the countryside, it'll be almost impossible for them to avoid the trappings of urban life. Their demand for luxuries will make their home an attractive place for craftsmen and a destination for merchants, who will in turn need the services of carpenters and laborers to build their homes and temples for their spiritual needs. Increased traffic to the area will encourage the development of ferries or construction of bridges across nearby rivers and the construction of inns and other facilities for permanent and semi-permanent inhabitants, and everyone involved needs to be fed, making the area a large market for peasants to sell their produce. Villages will become towns, and cities will become bigger, wealthier cities. This process can happen even on a small scale: for food and drink alone, masons and laborers building a castle will easily require more supplies than a typical village can provide, at least for the months or years it takes to build it. All of this may lead to political entanglements as nearby overlords squabble over who gets to tax the growing town and eventual collapse should the PCs eventually run out of money.

Then again, if people play their cards right, it might lead to a permanent change in the economy and politics of the region. If the PCs can support a generation of skilled craftsmen, which a quarter million gold pieces can probably do, they may be able to export their products to other areas and sustain their way of life as support from the PCs tapers off over the years. Likewise, if they build temples which can serve as pilgrimage sites, the place they built can remain a center of activity long after they're gone. The latter is particularly probable if the PCs set their mind to it. In the Middle Ages, grand churches could be constructed and stocked with interesting relics quickly given sufficient funding, and three tons of gold more than qualifies.

Deeper effects on the value of currency and on regional economies are not impossible, but depending on the setting, they do seem unlikely. There are a very few instructive historical examples of large amounts of money suddenly being dumped into an economy. Mansa Musa, a king of Mali (a kingdom rich with gold mines), made a famous pilgrimage to Mecca in the 1320s during which he is said to have brought nearly 25,000 pounds of gold, several times what our heroes have plundered. Apparently, he spread most of that gold around Cairo, where he stayed for some time. While there, he not only bought things (food and drink for his very large entourage, lodging, and so on), he also, as a good Muslim, gave a great deal of it away as alms and gifts. It is said that the effects of his spending on gold prices could be felt in Cairo for several years thereafter. Being typically vague on details, our sources don't go into specifics about how much they're felt and how many years, but we can point to some limitations. First, the effect seems to have been local to Cairo and its vicinity, apparently not to Egypt as a whole and certainly not to the entire Medieval world. Second, the effect seems to have been on the price of gold in particular. The sudden huge influx of gold depressed the price of the metal relative to other goods, but didn't unbalance the economy as a whole. Gold, while immensely valuable, has nevertheless been a fairly small part of any ancient economy, with silver being many times more plentiful and non-monetary exchanges being more common still.

About the only global or near-global impact a load of treasure will have is if the PCs come home with wagons full of ultra-rare and ultra-valuable items such as gemstones. The sheer mass of new stones on the market is likely to send prices crashing on a continental scale. Diamonds and rubies won't become worthless overnight, but they do seem likely to be far less valuable than they once were. However, transactions involving precious stones are so uncommon in the greater scheme of things, most people won't notice.

So, then: Any treasure that a party of PCs can carry is unlikely to mean significant changes beyond the local scale because it will still be drops, or at best a single large splash, in an ocean. To compare this to one of the greatest influxes of precious metals into pre-modern Europe, even three tons of gold is a fraction of peak annual production by the Spanish in the New World and a nigh-insignificant sliver of annual silver production. Spanish production of huge quantities of gold and silver meant inflation through Europe and their empire's eventual collapse, but it took decades of mismanagement, rampant spending, and an inevitable decline in production to really bring things to a head.

It's worth pointing out that one thing that won't happen is sudden and sharp inflation, which GMs might feel like imposing as a sort of informal tax on PCs who get too rich. The money the PCs spend doesn't just sit around in the local economy, changing hands in a small, closed circle. If the PCs buy, say, the finest wine available in the area to the great profit of its producers, those vintners will be able to buy more things for themselves, which will either bring new labor into the local economy or require exports from outside, giving that money to still more people who will buy more things for themselves, and so on. In short, rather than staying concentrated in one place and raising prices, the money will move into a wider pool of people, diluting the effects of the new source of cash as it goes. Some inflation is a possibility, of course, but largely as a side-effect of a general increase in economic activity.

And that's a realistic Medieval economy, something with which most fantasy settings are blissfully unburdened. The fiscal basis of most fantasy economies is ludicrous. If the gold piece is standard currency or peasants have enough money to make it worth stealing their purses, you've already left reality far behind. Moreover, these are settings in which this sort of thing seems to happen every day: every wandering critter has a sack of gold, a Noun of Verbing, or a wet-bar full of potions. Every hole in the ground has a sturdy wooden box full of emeralds and rubies. It's hard for a group of reasonably skilled adventurers not to cart a few buckets of treasure home at the end of the day. The implication is an economy with far more wealth moving around than any real economy matching the nominal level of technology. Perhaps the potential effects of adventurers putting more money into circulation are balanced by monsters taking it out.

As for the leftover magic items: The prices of magical items listed in game rules may be far out of line with their practical value and apparent availability. If, for example, the benefit derived from a lightly enchanted weapon is equivalent to that of a few additional months of training or experience and one can be obtained by finding and killing a moderately powerful beastie, it's not going to command a premium several orders of magnitude over the price of a mundane weapon. But even ignoring that, there probably won't be enough money to buy those leftover +1 swords, wands of whatever, and bracers of giant smell. Or, at least, not enough money in the hands of people who want them. And that's okay. Cash is in short supply in most historical economies. It may very well be that, no matter what price your game system lists for a magical item, the PCs won't be able to sell it for money. Barter or a mixture of cash and "in kind" exchange is a traditional way of doing business; feudal obligations, for example, could easily have an underling owing his liege lord grain and livestock and being owed cash with no easy way of reconciling the two. It's both realistic (or, at least, as realistic as you can get with magical items in play) and colorful to trade a flying carpet for a small bag of gold, a jeweled chess set, two amphorae of olives, and a horse.
Mo' Money
To take the idea to a logical extreme, let's briefly consider a treasure so vast the PCs can't carry it, the sort of hoard dragons curl up and sleep on, with a cave floor awash in gold and jewelry. Let's suppose a mass of treasure which would make up a layer 20 yards on a side and a foot deep. That's close to 2,200 tons of gold. Ferdinand Braudel, a prominent economic historian, proposed a very rough estimate of 5,000 tons of gold in circulation in Europe around the end of the Middle Ages. Suddenly increasing available stocks of gold by half will have far-reaching effects. First, the direct economic effects are likely to be a combination of the "renaissance effect," with the PCs becoming a center of economic activity, and a near-simultaneous crash in the price of gold. The PCs will be rich beyond their wildest dreams, but markedly less so than they would have been if they had collected gold already in circulation rather than introducing new gold.

Second, there are tremendous political ramifications. The collapse of gold prices will cause problems at the highest level of government and trade. Feudal obligations, international treaties, trade agreements, and other arrangements of the age had very specific terms of payment, and as already mentioned, there were no traditional legal mechanisms in place to reconcile reciprocal feudal obligations where one party paid money and another paid in kind. Habitually dealing in large sums, rulers and important merchants tended to deal in gold far more often than, say, peasants and craftsmen, so shifts in gold prices will hit the upper classes disproportionately hard. Under these conditions, someone who contracted to sell a pound of pepper for a pound of gold or who expects a sack of gold coins from an underling in return for various feudal privileges would suddenly find himself getting a far worse deal than he expected. Kings and merchant princes will scramble to attempt renegotiation of age-old agreements or simply watch helplessly as their wealth and power collapses. Wealth of that magnitude is also likely to attract unwelcome attention in the form of invading armies after a share of the immense loot. All of this could very well make significant trade too risky to attempt. Given a decade or so for the dust to settle, the end result would likely see the PCs either at the center of an immensely rich new mercantile power or maintaining a stronghold in the center of a chaotic region where all the old arrangements have broken down and piracy, banditry, and border squabbles are rampant.
--Matt Riggsby
...aaand second article:
How Do I Use My Peasants for Really Big Projects?

Imagine a pre-industrial civilization with a major construction project, something on the scale of the Suez Canal or the Palace of Versailles. What percentage of the population could actually work on the 'crash' project, considering that someone has to supply the workers and that moving those supplies to a central location will be a large task by itself? And how long would guys with shovels need to dig a canal or to raise an embankment dam on the scale of the Hoover Dam?

I'm assuming an absolute monarch (think Louis XIV) with enough firepower to handle peasant revolts, but soldiers cannot fight famine or inflation . . .


This is a far less theoretical question that it might seem. Massive, resource-consuming projects are among the great wonders of the ancient world. Just think of the Great Wall of China and the Pyramids. The emperor of China and the Egyptian pharaoh were monarchs to make Louis XIV look like a bit of a softie. Likewise, the Romans managed considerable large works in relatively short periods of time. Hadrian's Wall is the best known, but they also constructed two other walls across northern England and much longer, if much smaller and simpler, defensive structures along parts of their eastern European borders. So how did they manage it?

Labor
As a practical matter, a large proportion of the population had to be involved in the day-to-day work of survival. Just what proportion of society that is varies wildly with technology and local environmental conditions, but before the agricultural revolution of the 18th century, at least three people out of four were busy raising crops, and that number could go above nineteen out of every twenty (pre-state societies probably had even more people involved full-time in subsistence, but seeing as they don't, by definition, have rulers capable of directing such labor, we'll ignore them). At first glance, it would seem that those people simply can't be moved off of their regular work and put onto something else for any significant length of time. If they are, people begin to starve. On the other hand, even peasants did have some down-time, and there was clearly enough spare labor kicking around in ancient societies to build palaces, lay out roads, dig canals, and so on. Indeed, looking at more mundane tasks, many harvests required more than 100% of available labor (something like 110% for two to three weeks), so all of that work had to come from somewhere, if only from working punishingly long hours.

So, then, just how much flexibility is there among the unwashed masses? This varies between societies, of course, but not all of that peasant time is spent on pure subsistence activities. The peasants are feeding the whole of society, which is a task which can't be rescheduled well, but they're also supporting their masters at a far higher standard of living than their own, which is where there's room to maneuver. In extreme cases, a third of a peasant's productive labor might go towards supporting a landlord, local aristocrat, or government, though it was probably far less in most societies.

With a strong enough central government, a sizable chunk of that labor might be spent on big public works projects. There's lots of precedent for taxes paid in labor, so to some extent it's easily convertible. The Romans required some people to help maintain walls, roads, and other bits of civil engineering as part of discharging their tax burden, and Europe's feudal and manorial systems were, at least initially, more about service and labor rather than goods and monetary taxes. Indeed, it might be easier for peasants to dig holes or carry heavy loads than to pay other kinds of taxes. They already have strong backs, and this way they don't have to worry about whether or not grain prices will be sufficient to turn their agricultural produce into the required number of silver pennies or the chickens they're keeping to take up to the lord of the manor will be eaten by foxes.

The downside is that whatever gets spent on the big project doesn't get spent on making statues of the current ruler, paying off his gambling debts, feeding his dozens of pure white chargers, and procuring him milk-and-honey baths and fresh virgins every week. Again, there's vast variability here. Just how much of the productivity of the lower classes is drawn off by the Powers That Be and hence about what they'd be able to redirect to any given purpose, and how much they'd be able to divert to purposes other than maintaining the bare minimum of government functions (a bureaucracy, courts, armies, etc.) can be very different from society to society. As nearly pure speculation, we'll put the ceiling at about a quarter of the government's income, though it's probably rather less in most cases. In many societies, large-scale projects, such as fielding large armies for extended wars, were financed by debt rather than cutting back expenses.

Finally, there's the question of where things are going to happen in relation to the workers in question. Obviously, having to move large numbers of workers and the goods and supplies they'll need is expensive. Very expensive, as it happens. Going straight overland, the cost of supplying a settlement, including a temporary workers' camp, becomes prohibitive after 80 to 100 miles. River transport, which is available in most locations, effectively cuts transportation distances by three to five times, and ocean transport by a similar factor above that. (Though stated in terms of a particular game system, "Building the Low-Tech Landscape Part 2: Overlords and Cities"" provides some idea of the magnitude of transport costs.)

All of this leaves us with a rough formula:

Total labor × Tax rate × Discretionary proportion × Transportation premium

For example, given a kingdom of a million people, 15 percent of whose labor is taken in some for as taxes, 20 percent of which can be redirected to discretionary spending, for work which is to be done effectively at home (for example, a series of local watchtowers or commemorative temples), in the course of a single year, you're looking at 30,000 man-years.


Timing
We should also consider when all of this is going to happen. In most regions, most people are solidly booked two to three months in the spring and again in the fall in order to harvest the previous season's crops and plant for the next. Plowing and planting could conceivably be compressed a bit but no more than a few percentage points, while harvesting usually can't be compressed at all, which means that spring and fall are, in most cases, a bad time for mass mobilizations.

In some societies, peasants do have a lot of down-time, which might, at first glance, appear suitable for co-option for large projects. The winter months in northern Europe were a time of enforced inactivity. Nothing was growing and the ground was often frozen, so there was a lot of tool maintenance, storytelling, and wishing that there was a bit more in the larder. So that's two to three months out of the year when there's some free labor kicking around, right? Certainly, it's when many early Medieval feudal warlords got their fighting in. Not only did they not have to be overseeing their lands, the harder ground was better for armies to travel on.

But is it a good time of year to for the peasants to be out digging canals and building massive palaces for you? Probably not, if you're in a temperate zone. The problem with digging projects is that the very conditions which make it easy to fight make it difficult to excavate: frozen ground is hard, and it's even worse if you're using low-tech tools. It's not a great time for construction, either. Limestone mortar sets badly in frigid conditions. Historically, construction on the Gothic cathedrals stopped during winter for that very reason. Large patches of exposed mortar were insulated with straw and dung to protect them from extreme temperature changes, and everybody went about their regular lives until the next spring.

Warmer climates don't have that problem, of course. The ground around, say, Cairo or Baghdad would never be frozen, opening up both summer and winter as working seasons, though some kinds of labor might be more difficult if monsoon rains are expected. Moreover, that doesn't make Egyptian or Mesopotamian winters pure free time for a ruler to exploit. The warmer climate means better working conditions all around, which means that people there are often doing just as much work as their distant northern cousins are in the summer.

Regardless of the specifics of the schedule, though, the implication is that there is a schedule. Labor is likely to be patchy, with large surges in the summer and winter. During planting and harvest times, a great deal of labor will have to be let go as enough people are sent back to their fields in order to keep everyone fed.


Applications
So assuming that a great deal of labor can be freed up for a grand project, what is the great leader going to do with all those workers? To extrapolate how long it would take a bunch of guys with primitive earth-moving equipment to carry out a massive civil engineering project, we'll look to some of the big projects of antiquity. Because we don't have much in the way of records, we must fall back on vague estimates. It has been speculated that the construction of the Great Pyramid at Giza consumed something on the order of 300,000 man-years of labor over the course of 20 years of construction (that's actually towards the low end of modern estimates; other estimates go as far as two to three times higher, and historical estimates were higher still). It was originally a bit over 146 meters tall and 231 meters on each side, though it's smaller these days since the polished limestone siding has long since been looted. It comes in at about 2.6 million cubic meters of solid stone construction, or 8 2/3 cubic meters per man year, though less generous estimates would drop it down to about 4 cubic meters per man year.

The Great Wall of China (there were several; we'll use the Ming Dynasty one here) may have used 2,000,000 man-years, spread out over something like two centuries. The Great Wall stretches over a bit more than 6700 kilometers. For much of its length, it is made of a stone or brick facing with a rubble core. The height and width vary somewhat, but we'll assume a uniform 5 meters in either dimension, for at total of 167.5 million cubic meters of largely earthen construction, giving us 83.75 cubic meters of construction per man-year.

Of course, these numbers are not directly comparable. First, we're dealing with two very different levels of technology: Bronze Age Egyptians vs. the Ming Dynasty, whose technology was comparable to that of Europe's Renaissance. The Chinese had superior furnaces to bake brick, efficient cranes to lift loads, and technologies the Egyptians hadn't even imagined yet, such as water-driven mills to help cut and polish stone and tools made of iron and steel. The Egyptians, for their part, would have been lucky to have had metal shovels.

Second, the materials involved and where they had to go are very different. The Egyptians had to cut stone to exacting specifications. Early Egyptologists expressed astonishment that relatively primitive people could do such fine work. Investigation of the stonework of other civilizations has indicated that there's nothing particularly remarkable about really fine stonework, but all that polishing is very labor-intensive. Then they had to send it several miles up-river to the construction site. Although some stone and brick was involved in the Great Wall (well under 10% of the wall is masonry), the Chinese for the most part simply had to shovel nearby dirt and gravel.

Third, the Chinese built across, going over a great many miles but not building much farther up than a two story building. The Egyptians built up. They had to shove everything they had to considerable heights and increasing labor considerably as they went. Even with pulley cranes (which they didn't have), that would have been a considerable effort, and since the Egyptians had to rely on elaborate systems of ramps spiraling around the Pyramid as it was being built (which would have taken considerable effort to build as well) and fight ground friction every step of the way, it was even harder.

Fourth, not all man-years are necessarily created equal. Legend holds that countless peasants pressed into building the Great Wall were worked to death. Conversely, the consensus of opinion these days is that the people who built the Pyramid did so more-or-less voluntarily, either as paid laborers or in lieu of paying conventional taxes and tribute. The Chinese figure may in some way indicate what you can achieve if you don't really care how much damage your work force sustains in the process.

That's for construction. Another thing mass mobilizations are good for is digging holes. On a good day, using typical low-tech tools, a laborer can dig out about a cubic meter of very loose dirt. That rate can drop considerably for hard and damp soil and plummet when confronted with rock, particularly for very low-tech civilizations without decent boring technology. It also decreases, though not as fast, for holes more than a meter deep. Because the soil must be lifted higher, it takes about three days to dig a hole two meters deep, six for three meters, and so on. Constructing a simple ditch-and-earthen-wall palisade, such as the Romans constructed along the Danube, can be done very quickly. A thousand men could put up a kilometer of shallow ditch backed by a low wall in a day. Digging canals is slower and takes more careful specialized labor where the new canal meets existing water courses, but can still go fairly quickly.

When it comes to, say, a Versailles, the amount of labor you can mobilize is much less important than the skilled labor you've got to hand and your connection to trade networks. A gallery of mirrors, elaborately painted ceilings, and polished doorknobs at every turn require lots of highly trained professionals, a lot of gold on hand (which your peasants are unlikely to generate for you in short order), or both. But if what you want are big piles of stone or holes in the ground, you can get a lot done.
Send The Marines
It's worth remembering that imperial governments already have a large body of coordinated labor available to them: standing armies. They rarely comprise more than 1% of the available work force, and often much less, but they're already being paid for. The Roman legions, for example, are responsible for a number of major works, including most border fortifications and a great many roads. A ruler is unlikely to spend that labor on vanity projects, such as his own Versailles, but given the importance of water transport, he may very well put them to work on a Suez-like canal.
Counting Calories
One other possible consideration, illustrated by the down-time northern peasants had during the winter, is required additional consumption. Built into that picture of enforced inactivity is the quiet assumption that, since they're less active, they're also consuming less. If they're dragged out of their comfy homes to build roads or palaces, they'll need more food than they're assumed to be consuming in order to do it. Some researchers have suggested that typical peasants, who have periods of inactivity actually consume about 20% less calories than someone who would be active year-round, so mobilizing large bodies of labor makes that body of labor, ipso facto, more expensive.
--Matt Riggsby
Last edited by angelfromanotherpin on Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by K »

MGuy wrote: I disagree with this. The best thing any altruistic wizard can do is to teach as many "worthy" people they can to use magic. With magic being obviously so much better than "Everything else" I cannot fathom a reason that everyone who has even incremental talent in any mental stat to not enroll in Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, or Wizard School. There are settings that have kingdoms that concentrate on having more mages than everyone else. Even with the inclusion of having slaves doing the ion's share of the work there is no reason that the same force that changes the face of War, Belief Systems, and quite likely the ruling class wouldn't have a long running effect on education and economy. We're talking about people who live in a world, know that magic exists, and that the BEST of the BEST know this magic. Why wouldn't everyone that had any power to, merchants, artisans, each and every noble, etc all try to harness it?
Gah, you would never teach people magic. Magic is what will usher in the next culture-destroying event, and teaching people how to use it just ncreases the chances that someone will be the bad egg that does it.

But seriously, every time a dragon dies away from his lair a hoard goes unclaimed. Precious metals and minerals just sit in the earth until someone finds them. There really isn't a problem with getting to the level where you can cast one of the decent divinations, casting it, and getting enough treasure to set yourself up for life.

And an altruist wants to stop suffering, so that's why he grows his own power rather than improving the lives of peasants by taking care of their material needs because the peasants CAN grow their own food and make their own clothes, and they CAN'T stop a lich-king from raising an army of undead capable of murdering their extended family.

Considering this is DnD, lich-kings are a certainty, and any single spell slot you spent making underpants for the masses may be a day that the lack of that spell slot cost some people their lives (possibly you, since as someone who wants to fight things like lich-kings you are the first on his shit list).
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Sounds like K is advocating eternal feudalism/autocracy, where only a select elite of people get Real Ultimate Power and they guide the unwashed masses who would only abuse such power.

Of course, if you were really worried about bad eggs you should probably go all King Herod on children with a magical spark, smash all of the temples, and of course destroy all of the libraries. Banning magical tomes wouldn't be enough, since wizards could still research spells independently. The only way to counter-act that is to completely eliminate literacy at all.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by MGuy »

K wrote:Gah, you would never teach people magic. Magic is what will usher in the next culture-destroying event, and teaching people how to use it just ncreases the chances that someone will be the bad egg that does it.

But seriously, every time a dragon dies away from his lair a hoard goes unclaimed. Precious metals and minerals just sit in the earth until someone finds them. There really isn't a problem with getting to the level where you can cast one of the decent divinations, casting it, and getting enough treasure to set yourself up for life.

And an altruist wants to stop suffering, so that's why he grows his own power rather than improving the lives of peasants by taking care of their material needs because the peasants CAN grow their own food and make their own clothes, and they CAN'T stop a lich-king from raising an army of undead capable of murdering their extended family.

Considering this is DnD, lich-kings are a certainty, and any single spell slot you spent making underpants for the masses may be a day that the lack of that spell slot cost some people their lives (possibly you, since as someone who wants to fight things like lich-kings you are the first on his shit list).
I am a bit confused I didn't think you agreed with Forgotten Realm's idea that if you have a bunch of super powerful people around the good ones balance out the bad ones, which keeps everyone from doomsday. However if you're gonna tell me that this Wizard needs every slot he has on every day of his cushy life just to keep the lich king away I'll have to assume that you believe that by being "ready" a good wizard keeps evil wizards from doing things. Hell the lich king could be animating an ass load of corpses to build his necropolis on a given day, a good wizard can't take downtime as well? Even if its just to feed an ass load of starving unhappy people?
Last edited by MGuy on Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

"Teaching" people magic does not work how you want it to. You can write down precise, step by step instructions for someone that describe exactly what they need to do to cast a wall of stone... and nothing happens. You hand that shit to one of your apprentices and... nothing. They can work at it for twenty years, being told exactly what to do... and nothing happens.

Apprenticeship only takes people to level five. If they want to cast 4th level spells, all the instruction in the world won't do shit for them. They have to wander around the planet finding themselves and fighting Pokemon and collecting badges before any 4th or 5th level casting can happen.

Yes, you can sit around teaching students with promising genetics until they learn to cast shrink item - and that's pretty darn cool. Some people would do that. But again and still, that has absolutely no impact on the 4th or 5th level spell economies.

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Post by RobbyPants »

Wouldn't teaching more people mean there are more casters who can go out, gain a few levels, and then cast 5th level spells?
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

K wrote: But seriously, every time a dragon dies away from his lair a hoard goes unclaimed. Precious metals and minerals just sit in the earth until someone finds them. There really isn't a problem with getting to the level where you can cast one of the decent divinations, casting it, and getting enough treasure to set yourself up for life.
Unclaimed dragon hoards don't last very long. At the very least some hill giants or ogres or whatever will end up claiming the hoard. Yeah I mean I suppose there could be an unclaimed hoard, but to get there first your timing would have to be perfect. I really don't know of any magic that would help with that.

What divination would you even cast? Nothing from the PHB would particularly help.

As far as precious minerals and stuff, sure, but then you're setting up a mine and becoming part of the economy anyway. It's really no difference from conjuring walls of iron to mining mithral. It actually takes you more effort to mine the mithral, though it might be more profitable, assuming you get the proper work force. But in any case, this is interacting with the economy.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MGuy »

FrankTrollman wrote:"Teaching" people magic does not work how you want it to. You can write down precise, step by step instructions for someone that describe exactly what they need to do to cast a wall of stone... and nothing happens. You hand that shit to one of your apprentices and... nothing. They can work at it for twenty years, being told exactly what to do... and nothing happens.

Apprenticeship only takes people to level five. If they want to cast 4th level spells, all the instruction in the world won't do shit for them. They have to wander around the planet finding themselves and fighting Pokemon and collecting badges before any 4th or 5th level casting can happen.

Yes, you can sit around teaching students with promising genetics until they learn to cast shrink item - and that's pretty darn cool. Some people would do that. But again and still, that has absolutely no impact on the 4th or 5th level spell economies.

-Username17
Well that's even better. If you're going to go by the rubric of actually having to grind levels, you can totally have your would be apprentices killing boars in the forest, and when they are big enough, babysit them through a month's work of finding, and defeating encounters. If you're going to think of gaining a level in terms of kill monsters of level X then he can easily get a menagerie, plane shift himself and his students to his own hyperbolic time chamber and be dishing out mages groups at a time.
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Post by Username17 »

RobbyPants wrote:Wouldn't teaching more people mean there are more casters who can go out, gain a few levels, and then cast 5th level spells?
Unless they crowded each other out of adventures and then no one got to cast 5th level spells.

D&D uses the "great artist" model of spellcasting. Unless and until someone figures out a way to crank out wizards or something like wizards in University, powerful magic is never going to filter down to the masses.

You are a powerful wizard and you select a couple of worthy pupils and you set actual days on fire teaching them the basics of magic. And when they hit 5th level they become journeyman mages in your guild and try to break out in the world of art with their own masterpieces. Essentially it's like Baroque Era composers. And while there would be substantial benefits to society to increase the number of great composers who appeared - that simply does not happen. And can't happen within the social model.

It's all well and good to claim that MAGIC IS TECHNOLOGY and somehow you could change the way you did things and teach a fuck tonne of people how to cast powerful spells - but there are no rules for that. And no examples of any D&D settings where anyone does that. There is, in short, no reason at all to believe that the number of wizards in society is any less than the number of wizards society is capable of creating.

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Post by Kaelik »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Unclaimed dragon hoards don't last very long. At the very least some hill giants or ogres or whatever will end up claiming the hoard. Yeah I mean I suppose there could be an unclaimed hoard, but to get there first your timing would have to be perfect. I really don't know of any magic that would help with that.

What divination would you even cast? Nothing from the PHB would particularly help.
Um... The Divination you would cast is called Divination. Or Contact Other Plane. Or Commune.

Any of them really, because none of them prevent you from asking about where and when would be the best time to show up to claim a Dragon Horde.
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Post by MGuy »

FrankTrollman wrote:
RobbyPants wrote:Wouldn't teaching more people mean there are more casters who can go out, gain a few levels, and then cast 5th level spells?
Unless they crowded each other out of adventures and then no one got to cast 5th level spells.

D&D uses the "great artist" model of spellcasting. Unless and until someone figures out a way to crank out wizards or something like wizards in University, powerful magic is never going to filter down to the masses.

You are a powerful wizard and you select a couple of worthy pupils and you set actual days on fire teaching them the basics of magic. And when they hit 5th level they become journeyman mages in your guild and try to break out in the world of art with their own masterpieces. Essentially it's like Baroque Era composers. And while there would be substantial benefits to society to increase the number of great composers who appeared - that simply does not happen. And can't happen within the social model.

It's all well and good to claim that MAGIC IS TECHNOLOGY and somehow you could change the way you did things and teach a fuck tonne of people how to cast powerful spells - but there are no rules for that. And no examples of any D&D settings where anyone does that. There is, in short, no reason at all to believe that the number of wizards in society is any less than the number of wizards society is capable of creating.

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Eberron Campaign Setting Aundair, Forgotten Realms Thane, Dragonlance has a big tower where all the would be casters come for their wizarding license, beyond that fucking ARTIFICERS and their NPC equivalent. Dragonmarked houses turned them into a trade system. In various DnD novels and books there are enclaves of wizards, wizard towers and ACADEMIES where wizards learn their stuff. There may not be hardcore rules behind how a PC can downtime his way to the top but you'd have to be ignoring an awful lot text to say that there isn't anyway to teach this shit. Honestly if you can honestly find a reason to disregard the population charts given by the books, disregard the alignment system because it makes no sense, how can you require the book to tell you people can learn stuff without going around stumping monsters? You are honestly saying that the only way you can learn how to get another rank in knowledge skill is by killing shit.

Edit: THere is also halrua or something in Forgotten Realms, Whatever makes the space ships in Spelljammer, any number of Magic Traps that evidence that it is a bit more than an art. Tomes as to how the universe work. A Knowledge skill for it (because you don't perform casting unless maybe you're a bard) etc etc etc. Oh yes, and art wise, you can totally teach a person to play an instrument without having them go out and kill goblin babies.
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Post by Username17 »

Mguy wrote:Eberron Campaign Setting Aundair, Forgotten Realms Thane, Dragonlance has a big tower where all the would be casters come for their wizarding license, beyond that fucking ARTIFICERS and their NPC equivalent. Dragonmarked houses turned them into a trade system. In various DnD novels and books there are enclaves of wizards, wizard towers and ACADEMIES where wizards learn their stuff. There may not be hardcore rules behind how a PC can downtime his way to the top but you'd have to be ignoring an awful lot text to say that there isn't anyway to teach this shit. Honestly if you can honestly find a reason to disregard the population charts given by the books, disregard the alignment system because it makes no sense, how can you require the book to tell you people can learn stuff without going around stumping monsters? You are honestly saying that the only way you can learn how to get another rank in knowledge skill is by killing shit.
Those examples do not show what you seem to think they show.

There is no evidence, at all, of people getting to higher than 5th level on teaching alone.

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