[Tome feat] Mystic Dilettante

[For Valor]

No. Fuck you. Buffs fucking SCALE. So having [LOTS] of them with a single feat is fucking retarded. That's retarded for EXACTLY the same reason taking leadership to get a buffmonkey to follow you around is retarded.

Oh no... scaling buffs...

a) If you don't like this, Leadership is not a good idea either. You obviously don't like either option, so do me a favor and piss off.
b) When I think "scaling buffs", I think Greater Magic Weapon and its friends. Everybody having access to that stuff sounds pretty good to me...

No, you are a retard. Feats give options. Buffs give scaling bonuses on top of your base numbers above and beyond what you already have. That means that scaling actually is guaranteed to rape the RNG because you're scaling on top of things that already scale at the right rate.

For example, let's look at what you can have at level six with this feat(keep in mind that you're a full BAB character with combat feats on top of this):
Menacing Tentacles(PH2): +4 circumstance (bullshit) bonus to grapple checks; immediate action cast time.
Wraithstrike(SC): Because fuck you
Truestrike: Because fuck you

Are you not seeing how personal buffs are better than regular buffs? Because they are objectively better. Seriously, you need to spend two whole feats in dungeonomicon to get wraithstrike and something else you don't care about. That's one spell. Two feats for just that spell. The feat on the first page gives that out for a single feat in addition to everything else you want on the sorc/wiz list.

Yes, you are retarded. Please go play in traffic.

OH SHIT! IT'S LIKE EVERY OTHER COMBO IN THE GAME!!

Except now, instead of being available to only Batman and his buddies, it goes on everybody... I don't see a problem. If you allow Leadership, you allow this. If you don't like Leadership is a good idea (thank you, Ice9), then you don't allow this. They're equally as Broken, and handing this to a character at level 8 (minimum level he can use it) is no worse than handing the goddamn spells you listed to a fucking Wizard at level five.

Oh, and I hate to tell you this, but the tooth fairy doesn't exist either. Grow up.

[ubernoob]

Oh no... scaling buffs...

a) If you don't like this, Leadership is not a good idea either. You obviously don't like either option, so do me a favor and piss off.
b) When I think "scaling buffs", I think Greater Magic Weapon and its friends. Everybody having access to that stuff sounds pretty good to me...

No, you are a retard. Feats give options. Buffs give scaling bonuses on top of your base numbers above and beyond what you already have. That means that scaling actually is guaranteed to rape the RNG because you're scaling on top of things that already scale at the right rate.

For example, let's look at what you can have at level six with this feat(keep in mind that you're a full BAB character with combat feats on top of this):
Menacing Tentacles(PH2): +4 circumstance (bullshit) bonus to grapple checks; immediate action cast time.
Wraithstrike(SC): Because fuck you
Truestrike: Because fuck you

Are you not seeing how personal buffs are better than regular buffs? Because they are objectively better. Seriously, you need to spend two whole feats in dungeonomicon to get wraithstrike and something else you don't care about. That's one spell. Two feats for just that spell. The feat on the first page gives that out for a single feat in addition to everything else you want on the sorc/wiz list.

Yes, you are retarded. Please go play in traffic.

OH SHIT! IT'S LIKE EVERY OTHER COMBO IN THE GAME!!

Except now, instead of being available to only Batman and his buddies, it goes on everybody... I don't see a problem. If you allow Leadership, you allow this. If you don't like Leadership is a good idea (thank you, Ice9), then you don't allow this. They're equally as Broken, and handing this to a character at level 8 (minimum level he can use it) is no worse than handing the goddamn spells you listed to a fucking Wizard at level five.

Oh, and I hate to tell you this, but the tooth fairy doesn't exist either. Grow up.

BAB: 2
HP: 5d4+Con*5
AC: X
Saves: X

BAB: 5
HP: 5d10+Con*5
AC: Better than X
Saves: Better than X

Please, go play in traffic. The offense/defense slider is *fine* as long as you don't decide that someone gets to have both the best offense and defense at the same time (which this feat does).

[For Valor]

BAB: 2
HP: 5d4+Con*5
AC: X
Saves: X

BAB: 5
HP: 5d10+Con*5
AC: Better than X
Saves: Better than X

Please, go play in traffic. The offense/defense slider is *fine* as long as you don't decide that someone gets to have both the best offense and defense at the same time (which this feat does).

At level 5, the guy w/d10 HD can't cast those spells. You'd need him to be at level 8. Now, at level 8, a wizard can do all that, or throw down iceweb... or phantasmal killer... or solid fog or fear... or, y'know, something superior. If he took the damn feat himself (or Leadershipped to get a cohort doing it), he'd be even more annoying.

And you still didn't address "if you like Leadership, this is OK."

I'm not arguing for this feat being a fantastic idea... I'm arguing for it being on par with Leadership. You might notice that's in the [Tome] pdf.

[ubernoob]

At level 5, the guy w/d10 HD can't cast those spells.

Above you stated that it's equally bad as a wizard getting them at level five.

no worse than handing the goddamn spells you listed to a fucking Wizard at level five.

Here's the actual feat that we're talking about, for reference:
[quote="Avoraciopoctules"Mystic Dilettante [General]
For you, magic is a hobby.
Prerequisite: Level 3 or higher
Benefit: You can cast spells as a PHB Sorcerer of your level-2, with a few changes. You may choose any mental ability score as your casting stat and may pick spells from any nonspecialized (So no domains or Beguiler spells) list. You may swap out spells on your list of Known Spells with a day of downtime and access to a scroll of the spell you want to learn.[/quote]

And as for leadership being in the tomes, it's just like it's in the PHB. Show me a game that's actually used it and you have a compelling argument that it should exist anywhere.

[Kaelik]

OH SHIT! IT'S LIKE EVERY OTHER COMBO IN THE GAME!!

Except now, instead of being available to only Batman and his buddies, it goes on everybody... I don't see a problem. If you allow Leadership, you allow this. If you don't like Leadership is a good idea (thank you, Ice9), then you don't allow this. They're equally as Broken, and handing this to a character at level 8 (minimum level he can use it) is no worse than handing the goddamn spells you listed to a fucking Wizard at level five.

Oh, and I hate to tell you this, but the tooth fairy doesn't exist either. Grow up.

Spells that buff fighting for Wizards that are personal only are always better than ones that are not, and are always not as good for the Wizard as the Fighter. So in fact, it's not like any other combo in the game.

This feat gives you buffs, which scale by themselves. And it gives you more and better buffs as you level. So it's not like other feats, it's like a freaking class, mostly because it is like taking a feat for a class.

I mean, how do you feel about this feat:

Fighterererer [General]

You get a bonus combat feat every other level, all of a Fighter's class features two levels later, and your BAB is never less than CL -2.

That would be dumb and obscenely broken.

Yes, this feat is only as terrible as Leadership. Why you think that statement means anything other than "Only as evil as Hitler" is beyond me.

[Korwin]

And as for leadership being in the tomes, it's just like it's in the PHB. Show me a game that's actually used it and you have a compelling argument that it should exist anywhere.

The group I'm playing in is using Leadership.
One is an Intelligent Magic Item. (The GM ruled [IMHO unwise], that the Item uses the body of the wearer to cast, so personel buff spells are in [as is Wings of Cover]. Maybe he will change this rule after seeing it in effect.)
The other (mine) will be an Cheater of Mystra (who stays at home).
(Used for free Resurection, etc.)

[ubernoob]

And as for leadership being in the tomes, it's just like it's in the PHB. Show me a game that's actually used it and you have a compelling argument that it should exist anywhere.

The group I'm playing in is using Leadership.
One is an Intelligent Magic Item. (The GM ruled [IMHO unwise], that the Item uses the body of the wearer to cast, so personel buff spells are in [as is Wings of Cover]. Maybe he will change this rule after seeing it in effect.)
The other (mine) will be an Cheater of Mystra (who stays at home).
(Used for free Resurection, etc.)

Obviously your group prefers invulnerable (Free resurrection from TPK all the time forever) superheroes (cheater of mystra, personal buffs from an item at no action cost). Now, that's totally a fun way to play the game, but you're doing mostly magic tea party at that point since the dice don't actually matter. Thus, for your personal group the rules can totally be broken on their heads because they don't matter. For most groups, it's not wise to break the rules on their heads.

[Korwin]

And as for leadership being in the tomes, it's just like it's in the PHB. Show me a game that's actually used it and you have a compelling argument that it should exist anywhere.

The group I'm playing in is using Leadership.
One is an Intelligent Magic Item. (The GM ruled [IMHO unwise], that the Item uses the body of the wearer to cast, so personel buff spells are in [as is Wings of Cover]. Maybe he will change this rule after seeing it in effect.)
The other (mine) will be an Cheater of Mystra (who stays at home).
(Used for free Resurection, etc.)

Obviously your group prefers invulnerable (Free resurrection from TPK all the time forever) superheroes (cheater of mystra, personal buffs from an item at no action cost). Now, that's totally a fun way to play the game, but you're doing mostly magic tea party at that point since the dice don't actually matter. Thus, for your personal group the rules can totally be broken on their heads because they don't matter. For most groups, it's not wise to break the rules on their heads.

Well you asked...
And there is an action cost (DM rule), but I think he made an mistake in this case.
Action cost is there, but personell buffs are in (is an net plus)

As to playing superheroes etc.
What the hell, we are playing Tome, shure we want powerfull Chars. Otherwise we would play Core-Fighters.

Edit: To be honest if I would GM, I dont think I would allow the Cohorts part of Leadership.

[Kaelik]

As to playing superheroes etc.
What the hell, we are playing Tome, shure we want powerfull Chars. Otherwise we would play Core-Fighters.

This is just you being a lying idiot.

The Cheater of Mystra literally cannot die to any Monster in any Monster Manual except the one that has Game Disjunction at will.

If someone is playing that, your entire game stops being a game of D&D, because every fight can be handled by the Cheater saying "I attack it with this mace with no buffs, while being invulnerable. Please don't make us roll 200 dice for an assured win."

That's not Tome. At no point in the Tomes does it advocate just writing "I win no matter what, so why bother rolling dice" on your character sheet.

[For Valor]

OH SHIT! IT'S LIKE EVERY OTHER COMBO IN THE GAME!!

Except now, instead of being available to only Batman and his buddies, it goes on everybody... I don't see a problem. If you allow Leadership, you allow this. If you don't like Leadership is a good idea (thank you, Ice9), then you don't allow this. They're equally as Broken, and handing this to a character at level 8 (minimum level he can use it) is no worse than handing the goddamn spells you listed to a fucking Wizard at level five.

Oh, and I hate to tell you this, but the tooth fairy doesn't exist either. Grow up.

Spells that buff fighting for Wizards that are personal only are always better than ones that are not, and are always not as good for the Wizard as the Fighter. So in fact, it's not like any other combo in the game.

This feat gives you buffs, which scale by themselves. And it gives you more and better buffs as you level. So it's not like other feats, it's like a freaking class, mostly because it is like taking a feat for a class.

I mean, how do you feel about this feat:

Fighterererer [General]

You get a bonus combat feat every other level, all of a Fighter's class features two levels later, and your BAB is never less than CL -2.

That would be dumb and obscenely broken.

Yes, this feat is only as terrible as Leadership. Why you think that statement means anything other than "Only as evil as Hitler" is beyond me.

Jesus Christ, you and ubernoob are idiots.

My Argument: "It's the equivalent of Leadership."
Anti-Argument: "Leadership SUCKS!!!... hurr"

Seriously, I get it. You don't. Like. Leadership. But do I give a damn? No. Leadership is just the balance point used for this feat.

-*ahem*-

IF LEADERSHIP IS ALLOWED IN A GAME, THIS FEAT SHOULD BE ALLOWED AS WELL.

Any questions? Do I have to explain it again? Maybe slower for you ingrates?

[Kaelik]

IF LEADERSHIP IS ALLOWED IN A GAME, THIS FEAT SHOULD BE ALLOWED AS WELL.

IF YOU WANT TO RUIN YOUR GAME, THIS FEAT SHOULD BE ALLOWED, BECAUSE IT RUINS THE GAME!

Yes. This feat is like Leadership. That does not refute the point that Leadership is a terrible feat that should never be allowed, and this feat is also a terrible feat that should never be allowed.

You can't refute the argument Hitler killed Jews by claiming that you like Jew killing. That's not a refutation of what is being claimed.

[angelfromanotherpin]

[Leadership] feats are handed out as class features in the Tome base classes, and indeed the Tome material contains a variety of [Leadership]-related material. They are a part of the game as written and as generally played, even post-Tome fixes.

So, you can not like [Leadership] feats, but objecting to their existence is not a critique, and it's certainly not constructive. You disapprove, the point is made, move on.

[For Valor]

IF LEADERSHIP IS ALLOWED IN A GAME, THIS FEAT SHOULD BE ALLOWED AS WELL.

IF YOU WANT TO RUIN YOUR GAME, THIS FEAT SHOULD BE ALLOWED, BECAUSE IT RUINS THE GAME!

Yes. This feat is like Leadership. That does not refute the point that Leadership is a terrible feat that should never be allowed, and this feat is also a terrible feat that should never be allowed.

You can't refute the argument Hitler killed Jews by claiming that you like Jew killing. That's not a refutation of what is being claimed.

Fantastic. You don't like Leadership. Now, if you had read my damn post above, you would have realized that no one cares. You don't like Leadership? Great, fantastic, go away. You don't need to try and piss all over the thread yelling about how bad of a feat Leadership is. It's like someone making a class balanced to the SRD Monk and you running around saying "THE MONK IS A TERRIBLE CLASS!!!!" I mean, we know you have an opinion (obvious from the way you salivate all over the thread when you talk), but what we want is relevant criticism that discusses how closely something relates to a balance point, instead of how bad that balance point is.

TL;DR version--Go away. Please.

[Kaelik]

How bad the balance point is, is relevant criticism that needs to be taken into account.

Leadership is a terrible balance point, and everyone knows it, which is why the first feat was scraped for being ass, because Leadership was not the balance point being aimed for by anyone, including the actual creator.

So how about you go away and stop shitting on a thread that is about feats not balanced at Leadership level, and instead, you make your own damn thread for your own damn feat if you want a Leadership level feat.

[For Valor]

How bad the balance point is, is relevant criticism that needs to be taken into account.

Leadership is a terrible balance point, and everyone knows it, which is why the first feat was scraped for being ass, because Leadership was not the balance point being aimed for by anyone, including the actual creator.

So how about you go away and stop shitting on a thread that is about feats not balanced at Leadership level, and instead, you make your own damn thread for your own damn feat if you want a Leadership level feat.

Ahh, the classic "I don't like this, therefore it should not exist."

How old are you?

But whatever. Obviously, you can't cope with things not being exactly as you want them to. I'll leave you to screw around in your happy place.

[Mask_De_H]

You're not helping For Valor; Kaelik is pretty much always a dick, but you're being a right twat in response.

What he's trying to say outside of the gibbering and rage is that Leadership is a force multiplier for a character, straight up. And it can be taken on top of Leadership, which can do a similar thing. And it gives you access to bullshit spell lists, which leads to tears. This feat alone makes you essentially two characters, without the money drain from outfitting a cohort. If you have a cohort, you're on the fast track to making yourself a one man party.

That is far and away better than pretty much any Tome feat ever conceived from the word go, outside of carefully breeding beasties from the Tome of Necromancy feats. And you can take those feats too, this is a [Magic] feat, not a [Leadership] feat. This is a really easy way to get into Crazytown, and that is the exact opposite aim for the Tomes.

If you want to waive your mechanical dick in the GM's face, just sack up and drop trou. Don't pervert the essence of the Tome series because you don't want people to work hard for their real ultimate power.

[Korwin]

As to playing superheroes etc.
What the hell, we are playing Tome, shure we want powerfull Chars. Otherwise we would play Core-Fighters.

This is just you being a lying idiot.

The Cheater of Mystra literally cannot die to any Monster in any Monster Manual except the one that has Game Disjunction at will.

Hmm, interesting.
How can I be lying in this case?
(Even if its out of context from the rest of my post).

If we look at the single sentence you quoted:
We are playing Tome, we want powerfull Chars. Otherwise we would play Core-Fighters.

One its own, I cant see how I did (or even can) lie.


If you wanted to quote it in context, I said in my first post:

The other (mine) will be an Cheater of Mystra (who stays at home).
(Used for free Resurection, etc.)

Ie. used for things which some Tome classes get for free (Sohei, Soulborn)
So no invulnerable Cohort beating enemies of the party to dead*. (Btw. how?)

* Yeah, that an self-limitation (But I did write, I wouldnt allow Leadership myself)

---

To recap, I only posted because:

And as for leadership being in the tomes, it's just like it's in the PHB. Show me a game that's actually used it and you have a compelling argument that it should exist anywhere.

Leadership was/is used in a group I play with. Thats my whole point.
(And its totally irrelevant what the specific Cohorts are. Apparently I made an mistake of providing examples.)

[Kaelik]

Hmm, interesting.
How can I be lying in this case?

You are lying by setting up a false dichotomy of powerful characters and Core fighters, when in fact, those are not the only two possibilities.

You are lying when you imply that Tomes games create characters balanced at a Leadership and Cheater of Mystra level and that having those things in the game constitutes a Tome level game even though they very explicitly don't.

[Korwin]

You are lying by setting up a false dichotomy of powerful characters and Core fighters, when in fact, those are not the only two possibilities.

I'll modify my statement:

Code: Select all

Otherwise we would play Core-Fighters [b]or Commoners or other underpowered stuff[/b]

Better?

You are lying when you imply that Tomes games create characters balanced at a Leadership and Cheater of Mystra level and that having those things in the game constitutes a Tome level game even though they very explicitly don't.

Huh, who is lying now? Since Leadership is in the Tomes...

Call the Horde (Ex): An 11th level Barbarian becomes a hero of his people. He gains the Command feat as
a bonus feat, but his followers must be Barbarians. In campaigns that do not use Leadership feats, he instead
gains a +2 unnamed bonus to all saves.

Leadership: At 6th level, a Marshall gains a Leadership feat that he qualifies for as an additional feat.

Eternal Revolution: A 19th level Soulborn has a literal army of petitioners to call upon, and gains the Army
of Demons [Leadership] feat as a bonus feat

And thats only the Base-Classes.

---

Yes, there is the option to play without Leadership.
I would even say its the sane, playable option. But its not the only option.

And if Leadership is in the game, I would allow the Magical Diletante feat.
(But not both on the same PC)

[Kaelik]

You are lying by setting up a false dichotomy of powerful characters and Core fighters, when in fact, those are not the only two possibilities.

I'll modify my statement:

Code: Select all

Otherwise we would play Core-Fighters [b]or Commoners or other underpowered stuff[/b]

Better?

I'll modify my statement:

You are a lying asshole. Stop lying.

[Korwin]

Yeah, throw that stone in your glass house.

[Goldor]

<.< So because you provided an example like he asked your a lying asshole? Yeah that makes lots of sense there.

[Korwin]

ninja'ed

[Kaelik]

<.< So because you provided an example like he asked your a lying asshole? Yeah that makes lots of sense there.

I think you are confused. I never asked for an example of someone being stupid, because I know that people are stupid.

I called him a liar because he was specifically attempting to deceive people by lying that Cheaters of Mystra are Tome level, and not way above that, and that the only two possible power levels are Cheater of Mystra with Leadership and Core Fighter.

Which is completely untrue, because for example, the things that are weaker than Leadership but stronger than Core fighters include Every spellcasting class and every Tome class that anyone has ever played ever.

So then he decided to amend his lie to be more of a lie, by claiming that the only possible power levels are Cheater of Mystra with Leadership, Core Fighter, and Commoner.

So yes, he's a fucking liar. He is flatly telling everyone in the universe that the Wizard class doesn't even exist.

That's fucking retarded. And you are fucking retarded for believing that his excluded middle fallacy is a legitimate argument.

EDIT: Korwin, he's taking your side. He's saying that you aren't a lying asshole because you did what uber asked. He's just illiterate and thinks that uber was me.

[Kaelik]

<.< If you wanted it to be an example in a specific power range thats on you for not stating that, it has nothing to do with what he provided...

No, when I don't ask for an example at all, and instead point out that he's deceiving people by specifically setting up a dichotomy that doesn't exist and excluding that wide range of things that exist between those things incredibly weak and those things that win the game with magic tea party, then, when someone decides to say "Yeah, there's nothing in the middle of that, only things weaker than too weak and game breakingly tea party. Nothing else exists."

You would have to be more retarded than a fucking monkey to see a fallacy of the excluded middle called out as exactly that, and then think that the fallacy is addressed by continuing to exclude the middle, but admit that there exist other things that also aren't in the middle.