Do we come here because every other forum is a wasteland?

[Orion]

The internet is forever. You seriosuly have no idea who is reading anything you post. The fact that someone has expressed intent to stop posting somewhere doesn't make it acceptable to make bigoted personal attacks.

(Note: by "bigoted" I actually do mean "bigoted" in the sense of using dehumanizing language targeted at a specific group [however we feel about "trap", I very much doubt "it" is acceptable anywhere]. Not just saying mean things about CielingCat's *character* -- which was imperfect, as most people's are, and perhaps more so among people of disadvantaged groups.)

[CatharzGodfoot]

"This is the internet" arguments only go so far. You can stare into the abyss without becoming a monster, and if you do become one you have only yourself to blame for your actions.

I'm pretty sure being snide about CielingCat's gender when she's not even around to see it doesn't fit the "monster" category. If I wanted to be a monster, I could have been.

I don't know who drove the Cat away. At this point it hardly matters. What does matter is that, even months later, at the first mention of her you start making sexist jabs.

If I were one to quibble, I would point out that it was the second mention.

You're always going to be exactly as much of a sexist asshole as you want. Blaming it on the internet gets you nowhere. I'm not going to split hairs with you over degrees of evil.

A person being a bitch to you never justifies sexism against them. No matter what. Michael Richards learned the same lesson about racism. As soon as you devolve into a bigot, you loose any high ground you may have once had.

No, in an ideal world intolerance is never justifiable. Not just sexism or racism. Intolerance.

That's just bullshit moral relativism. Of course intolerance is justifiable. I'm being intolerant of PR's actions right now.

[Zinegata]

"This is the internet" arguments only go so far.

Right. But when it suits the Den its motto is "We'll burn down your house, rape your wife, and say bad things about you. On the Internet."

Why do you think that the only reason I say people should stay is because some people here know how to do the fucking math? The Den has very little else going for it.

[Psychic Robot]

You're always going to be exactly as much of a sexist asshole as you want. Blaming it on the internet gets you nowhere. I'm not going to split hairs with you over degrees of evil.

The internet is forever. You seriosuly have no idea who is reading anything you post. The fact that someone has expressed intent to stop posting somewhere doesn't make it acceptable to make bigoted personal attacks.

Stop fucking whining. Both of you. I made two comments, both of which were somewhat tongue in cheek (notice the "snap"), and you're acting like I wished that CielingCat were the victim of a hate crime. Get over yourselves.

[Prak]

Remember when you guys drove away Cielingcat?

Good times.

I'm never showing anyone this board again. That was easily this board's most shameful moment, on-par with the Arturick shit.

Yeah, that was pretty lame.

In our defense, Cielingcat's demands were wholly unreasonable. Remember that telling her that I was entirely willing to treat her as female and accept her decision to chop her penis off was not enough. She wanted me to agree that she was actually going to change biological sex (rather than apparent morphological sex) and support the idea that sex change operations magically work out all the time and solve all gender dysmorphia. And that's not true.

....jezus, I almost wish I'd actually paid attention to that damn thread...

[ubernoob]

I wish that everyone giving a shit about words written on an internet forum was a victim of a hate crime. At least then you'd have a reason for being such a whiny bitch.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I wish that everyone giving a shit about words written on an internet forum was a victim of a hate crime. At least then you'd have a reason for being such a whiny bitch.

I wish that nobody was ever the victim of a hate crime, because then the world would be a significantly better place.

[Edit] Except for maybe Skip Williams. His crimes against sorcerers were unforgivable. [/Edit]

[Zinegata]

That's just bullshit moral relativism. Of course intolerance is justifiable. I'm being intolerant of PR's actions right now.

Intolerance isn't justifiable. Hitler had his own justifications for being intolerant to Jews, but it doesn't make them right.

[CatharzGodfoot]

That's just bullshit moral relativism. Of course intolerance is justifiable. I'm being intolerant of PR's actions right now.

Intolerance isn't justifiable. Hitler had his own justifications for being intolerant to Jews, but it doesn't make them right.

It wasn't justifiable because his justifications were bullshit, and it takes more than a few made-up diatribes to justify the elimination of an entire culture through murder. That doesn't make intolerance unjustifiable. In fact, it suggests that intolerance of Hitler and his followers was quite justifiable.

[Psychic Robot]

So. Back on topic. Yes, many other forums are a wasteland of failure and PLAY NICE OR ELSE policies.

A refresher on my own experiences with BG.

[Kaelik]

[however we feel about "trap", I very much doubt "it" is acceptable anywhere]

Well it is in one place, you guys just refuse to use it on the one person who would prefer it.

[malak]

Intolerance isn't justifiable. Hitler had his own justifications for being intolerant to Jews, but it doesn't make them right.

So genocide is something that should be tolerated?

[Calibron]

I come here because people here can maintain a mature, if somewhat hostile, atmosphere even when tempers flare and sensitive topics are brought up. ;3

[Zinegata]

Intolerance isn't justifiable. Hitler had his own justifications for being intolerant to Jews, but it doesn't make them right.

So genocide is something that should be tolerated?

Eh? That's the exact opposite of what I said.

Again:

No, in an ideal world intolerance is never justifiable. Not just sexism or racism. Intolerance.

Really. The Den is full of idiots who prefer to re-interpret other people's words just to score brownie points.

[malak]

Intolerance isn't justifiable. Hitler had his own justifications for being intolerant to Jews, but it doesn't make them right.

So genocide is something that should be tolerated?

Eh? That's the exact opposite of what I said.

Again:

No, in an ideal world intolerance is never justifiable. Not just sexism or racism. Intolerance.

Really. The Den is full of idiots who prefer to re-interpret other people's words just to score brownie points.

So your intolerance towards genocide is justifiable?

[Zinegata]

That's just bullshit moral relativism. Of course intolerance is justifiable. I'm being intolerant of PR's actions right now.

Intolerance isn't justifiable. Hitler had his own justifications for being intolerant to Jews, but it doesn't make them right.

It wasn't justifiable because his justifications were bullshit, and it takes more than a few made-up diatribes to justify the elimination of an entire culture through murder. That doesn't make intolerance unjustifiable. In fact, it suggests that intolerance of Hitler and his followers was quite justifiable.

Right. I say that all forms of intolerance is not acceptable. I say intolerance is not justifiable.

And your conclusion is "You support Hitler!"

You're a fucking moron.

In an ideal world, all intolerance is not acceptable. In an ideal world, what PR said is not justifiable. But neither is him being stalked by Ceiling Cat.

But no, you want a world where only the issues you cherry-pick are not justifiable.

I am not speaking of moral relativism. I'm speaking of moral absolutes. You cannot cherry-pick issues if you want to rail against intolerance. All or nothing. Not just sexism because you feel like it. Otherwise you're just an ass and a hypocrite.

And since moral absolutes are impossible to uphold anyway in the face of blatant hypocrisy and assholes everywhere, the simplest philosophy is this: If somebody says "Fuck you" to you, you say "Fuck you" right back.

That's how the Den works.

[Zinegata]

So your intolerance towards genocide is justifiable?

You're not only a moron, you're a troll.

Fuck off. You demonstrate why the Den has devolved into shit.

[A Man In Black]

I haven't read their board in some time. How did that work out? Good?

Last I checked (six-ish months ago?) BG was pretty much a wasteland. A few people who obviously knew each other chatting, 3/4 completely abandoned boards.

[malak]

So your intolerance towards genocide is justifiable?

You're not only a moron, you're a troll.

Best of both worlds.

Still, you didn't answer the question. I do not agree with your original statement. Intolerance is justifiable. There are limits to tolerance as any reasonably intelligent human should understand, and when those are reached, it's ok to say no, or no more.

If tolerance is a moral imperative, it implies that you have to be tolerant towards groups of people that preach and plan genocide or maybe force women to wear burkas.

Fuck off. You demonstrate why the Den has devolved into shit.

Thanks. I happily fulfill the role of the paragon of forum devolution. Hurray!

[Zinegata]

Malak->

Gee, finally, some justification for your positions instead of trying to be snarky and score brownie points.

You say intolerance is justifiable. Therefore, Hitler's intolerance is justifiable. So you're actually the one who's saying it's totally cool for Hitler to hate Jews .

Because morality is in fact relative. Modern-day people may think genocide is horrible and all, but the Romans saw it as good national policy.

------------------

Also, you claim that my position leads to... "You should be tolerant to people who commit genocide".

That fails utterly for a simple reason:

My position is that intolerance is never justified.

Genocide is an extreme form of intolerance.

Therefore genocide is not a justified action. Ever. That comes with moral absolutes.

[malak]

You say intolerance is justifiable. Therefore, Hitler's intolerance is justifiable. So you're actually the one who's saying it's totally cool for Hitler to hate Jews .

Of course. It is(was) his decision whom to hate or not. However, since I'm ok with intolerance, I can be very intolerant towards his world view and it's perfectly ok and consistent.

Because morality is in fact relative. Modern-day people may think genocide is horrible and all, but the Romans saw it as good national policy.

Exactly.

Also, you claim that my position leads to... "You should be tolerant to people who commit genocide".

That fails utterly for a simple reason:

My position is that intolerance is never justified.

Genocide is an extreme form of intolerance.

Therefore genocide is not a justified action. Ever. That comes with moral absolutes.

So you are intolerant towards intolerance. And it's justified. Don't you see the problem here?

[DragonChild]

I wish that everyone giving a shit about words written on an internet forum was a victim of a hate crime. At least then you'd have a reason for being such a whiny bitch.

I've seen the "Oh, it's just an internet, I can make fun of transgendered people as much as I want" stuff turn into direct, personal stalking leading to attempts to ruin a person's life and drive them to suicide.

So no. "Words on the internet" are just how someone really feels when there are no consequences, and can easily lead to "real" actions. And shouldn't just be dismissed.

[magnuskn]

It's fun watching all the raging egos clash. I am probably not even the right person for this messageboard, since I actually like Pathfinder and am not too troubled with the minor technicalities of that or another rule. But, eh, it's fun talking a bit with Stahlseele, Clutch and Centurion in the BattleTech thread and leaving the occasional comment in other threads.

[Zinegata]

So you are intolerant towards intolerance. And it's justified. Don't you see the problem here?

I was wondering if you'd actually hit upon the paradox. Good one. You're not a moron then .

However, you're still unobservant, because note my position: "In an ideal world, intolerance is not justified."

So intolerance shouldn't even exist - if the conditions of the ideal world are met.

If you had also read my whole original post as opposed to merely nitpicking "In an ideal world intolerance is never justified", you'd see that I do actually say what in the real world, intolerance is rampant. And that people cherry-pick what they want to be intolerant about (which is synonymous with relative morality).

Which makes the Den suck, because rather than welcoming people with different views, people here go "RAR" all the time, and fosters an environment where it's totally okay to be intolerant. Everyone's just cherry-picking anyway.

My response? Shoot back when people shoot at you. It's the way of the Den.

[Roy]

It amuses me greatly that many of the very things Zinegata is claiming drive people away from the Den he is either the only one, or the primary one doing here.

Even so, I'm actually going to post something on topic.

Yes, the Den has been devolving a bit for a while. Too much yelling at each other and not enough REASONS for yelling at each other. So instead of 'fuck your idea, it sucks and this is how you make it not suck' it's more like 'Fuck you' and that's the end of the story.

Even so, it remains the only place you can go to and actually get a decent answer to questions, instead of plebian mouth breathing bullshit like 'no, doing 4d6 a round at level 8 is totally contributing to the team' and 'you should have a party of cleric/wizard/fighter/rogue/monk instead of cleric/druid/wizard/wizard/artificer because it is better able to deal with encounters and you'll need those front liners to do anything. The actual wording was significantly less intelligent than this, but I translated from failspeak to English. There are many other examples of course, but that would turn this into a fail thread.