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malak
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Post by malak »

Zinegata wrote:
malak wrote:So you are intolerant towards intolerance. And it's justified. Don't you see the problem here?
I was wondering if you'd actually hit upon the paradox. Good one. You're not a moron then :P.
So it was a social experiment?
Zinegata wrote: If you had also read my whole original post as opposed to merely nitpicking "In an ideal world intolerance is never justified", you'd see that I do actually say what in the real world, intolerance is rampant. And that people cherry-pick what they want to be intolerant about (which is synonymous with relative morality).
There is absolute morality? Defined by whom? You? :)

Zinegata wrote: Which makes the Den suck, because rather than welcoming people with different views, people here go "RAR" all the time, and fosters an environment where it's totally okay to be intolerant. Everyone's just cherry-picking anyway.

My response? Shoot back when people shoot at you. It's the way of the Den.
Which makes the den so interesting. It is totally okay to be intolerant. In the den as well in the real world.

Open exchange of opinion > political correctness.

I'm new here, but what I noticed is that at least intolerance towards displays of stupidity seems to be widely practised here. It's a good thing.
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Post by violence in the media »

Well, now that you guys have touched on the paradox of tolerance, I just want to add that I'm rather refreshed by the Den's liberal bias. Like talk radio, private gaming websites are often havens of conservative thought. You think you have it bad here, Zinegata? Try advocating a liberal point of view on a conservative board that shares the Den's moderating policy. :tongue:
Last edited by violence in the media on Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DragonChild
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Post by DragonChild »

Try advocating a liberal point of view on a conservative board that shares the Den's moderating policy.
I've been harassed on a major roleplaying game website for daring to believe in the big bang and quantum mechanics. Not just "mocked", but openly, repeatedly harassed, every time I went into the chatroom.

Reality has a liberal bias.
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malak
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Post by malak »

DragonChild wrote:
Try advocating a liberal point of view on a conservative board that shares the Den's moderating policy.
I've been harassed on a major roleplaying game website for daring to believe in the big bang and quantum mechanics. Not just "mocked", but openly, repeatedly harassed, every time I went into the chatroom.

Reality has a liberal bias.
Wow. This sounds fun. Care to provide a link to said website?
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Post by DragonChild »

Wow. This sounds fun. Care to provide a link to said website?
No. I'm not Roy or Psychic Robot.

I will, however, say that they nominated to the Ennies this year for best website. Boy, do I fucking hate the Ennies.

And you might counter "Oh, that's just the users, but not the moderators".

Well, at one point, some idiot had come in after I had a long day. And he did the usual spew about 4e is bad because it gives fighters unrealistic things, is obviously an MMO, etc, etc. Now, I greatly dislike 4e. But I dislike it for rational reasons. But then he dropped the major bomb.

He claimed that 4e did not have any playtesters, because all of the playtesters and designers were working on DDO. And he knew this because a friend told him so.

Now, I know 4e had playtesters, and I know the playtesting was done BADLY because of how WOTC collected reports. But "All the playtesters and designers went to DDO" ? Seriously? So I asked for a cite. He told me it was obvious and everywhere. So I pointed out - the wikipedia article listed none of this, and had no names that were recognizable as WOTC employes. Their promotional material had nothing about D&D designers, which you think would be pretty big. Etc. Things got heated, and I basically said - you had no proof to your claim, except "a friend told me", and if you continue at this point, you're basically lying. He then yelled at me for "having the burden of proof and not providing it." I told ihm that he was wrong, burden of proof was on him, and if he wasn't actually going to participate in debates and listen to other people, he should just leave.

The moderators banned me for that, making two comments - telling people to "just leave" was wrong, and that I cared too much about" burden of proof". I have an actual PM from one of the moderators claiming that I was wrong about the burden of proof, and that's why I was banned. When I sent this PM to the owner of the website, and pointed out that BURDEN OF PROOF DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY, he said it "wasn't part of the decision".

Despite the fact that it was the only reason mentioned in the PM why I was banned.
Last edited by DragonChild on Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Zinegata »

Roy wrote:It amuses me greatly that many of the very things Zinegata is claiming drive people away from the Den he is either the only one, or the primary one doing here.
.
Wow. Somebody gets called a Trap behind her back but I'm the only bad guy here.
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Post by Zinegata »

violence in the media wrote:Well, now that you guys have touched on the paradox of tolerance, I just want to add that I'm rather refreshed by the Den's liberal bias. Like talk radio, private gaming websites are often havens of conservative thought. You think you have it bad here, Zinegata? Try advocating a liberal point of view on a conservative board that shares the Den's moderating policy. :tongue:
I didn't say that the Den has a liberal bias. I said it is a haven for people who are so far-left that they make Jon Stewart look conservative. :P

Many very vocal Den people think that everyone who has a neutral position is a conservative. You, in fact, are one of them as you constantly attribute me to conservative political positions I never even expressed.

So I'm not surprised your accusing gaming websites as having a conservative school of thought.
Last edited by Zinegata on Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DragonChild »

So I'm not surprised your accusing gaming websites as having a conservative school of thought.
Or that, you know, he's seen different gaming websites than you. While I can't speak for ENWorld or RPG.net, I've seen plenty, like the one I just mentioned, and another where one of the moderators openly talks about how minorities are the cause of all crimes and all atheists are evil, that run obviously conservative.
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Post by Zinegata »

malak wrote:Which makes the den so interesting. It is totally okay to be intolerant. In the den as well in the real world.

Open exchange of opinion > political correctness.

I'm new here, but what I noticed is that at least intolerance towards displays of stupidity seems to be widely practised here. It's a good thing.
I apologize if I was snippy earlier. This is a good position to hold, and I would ask that you continue communicating in this concise but comprehensive manner as it does contribute to a better Den.
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Post by Zinegata »

DragonChild wrote:
So I'm not surprised your accusing gaming websites as having a conservative school of thought.
Or that, you know, he's seen different gaming websites than you. While I can't speak for ENWorld or RPG.net, I've seen plenty, like the one I just mentioned, and another where one of the moderators openly talks about how minorities are the cause of all crimes and all atheists are evil, that run obviously conservative.
WoTC, Enworld, and RPG.net are the three biggest forums that I know of, dwarfing most of the rest. None of them have any real political bias and attempt to avoid politics and focus on gaming.

So that's hardly demonstrating that gaming websites as being right-wing.

The most right-wing gaming website I know of are Wargamer, Consim World and Grongard, but given the player demographic that's to be expected (mostly old wargamers in their 50s). And these are pretty niche markets anyway.

Besides which, I find it hilarious that right-wing D&D sites even exist. D&D - the game that promotes devil worship - has fansites run by bible-thumpers?

Hilarious! :rofl:
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

DragonChild wrote:
ubernoob wrote:I wish that everyone giving a shit about words written on an internet forum was a victim of a hate crime. At least then you'd have a reason for being such a whiny bitch.
I've seen the "Oh, it's just an internet, I can make fun of transgendered people as much as I want" stuff turn into direct, personal stalking leading to attempts to ruin a person's life and drive them to suicide.

So no. "Words on the internet" are just how someone really feels when there are no consequences, and can easily lead to "real" actions. And shouldn't just be dismissed.
I wanted to quote this, because I've had it happen to me on a number of occasions. I am not trying to act sweet an innocent here, I admit that some days I have a hair trigger and I've said a LOT of really stupid things because I was pissed and didn't think about it. By no means am I trying to act like an angel here.

HOWEVER

There have been many times where people on the internet took it upon themselves to "punish" me for things I may or may not have said or done. Some of which actually made threats in real life. Shadowviper has made it his mission to let everyone know that I supposedly closed down the mature forums "to show everyone how juvenile I am" (Note: Assuming that he's not lying through his goddamn teeth, how is harping about a forum that closed 5-6 years ago not juvenile?). Although no one here has made accusations like that, every forum I've been to decided that me snapping at someone means I need to be punished and they are the ones to do it.

And to be honest, if I wasn't used to high school, where kids would get off the bus at my stop and throw rocks through my windows demanding I come out so they "could beat my [EDITED] ass", and having 5-6 guys hold me down while one threatens to rape me, and having every girl I asked out recoil in disgust because everyone though I had HIV, I'd probably have killed myself. I'm pretty much used to the idea that I can't be nice and polite enough to keep people from wanting to get even with me somehow and accept it.
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Post by violence in the media »

Zinegata wrote: I didn't say that the Den has a liberal bias. I said it is a haven for people who are so far-left that they make Jon Stewart look conservative. :P
Pardon me for not transcribing you literally. :P
Many very vocal Den people think that everyone who has a neutral position is a conservative.
That sword cuts both ways.
You, in fact, are one of them as you constantly attribute me to conservative political positions I never even expressed.

So I'm not surprised your accusing gaming websites as having a conservative school of thought.
I am a very liberal person, thanks for noticing.

Now, in regards to my attribution of positions to you, do you have to explicitly express a position in order to hold it? Is it somehow wrong of me to guess at your views on something based upon the ways you've presented yourself in the past? If I've guessed wrong, go ahead and correct me--I'll change my view. But I think you too strenuously insist on literalism and maintaining a blank slate in regards to areas where you haven't provided any input or information.

As an analogy: If you tell me that you dislike fantasy fiction, and that you think R.A. Salvatore is a terrible person, then it is not unreasonable for me to conclude that you dislike the Icewind Dale trilogy and operate from that assumption. If you actually somehow love the Icewind Dale trilogy, I can be surprised and file that as an exception to your policy of anti-fantasy fiction, anti-Salvatore. However, if you DO actually dislike the Icewind Dale trilogy, it's kind of silly to get angry at people for assuming it, even if you never explicitly said it.
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Post by Zinegata »

But your guesses are very often wrong.

And these "guesses" in fact do little but strengthen the impression that lots of Den people that are extreme-left wing nuts who demonize even neutral people as conservatives because they're so rooted in ideology they can no longer see the world in any other terms except left-wing or right-wing.

I tell somebody that poverty is much worse outside of the United States. Your conclusion is that I believe poor people only have themselves to blame - a real stupid conservative talking point.

Yet there is no link or causality between the two. That's just a knee jerk reaction because I had the temerity not to blindly repeat the liberal talking point of "The reason why there are poor in America is because corporations are EVIL".

Real, thinking, people do not base their lives on one set of political talking points.
Last edited by Zinegata on Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DMReckless
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Post by DMReckless »

Just something I noticed.
[irony]
Crissa, often when you postulate things are being conspired by "priveleged" white males, you use the derogatory term "boys". Yet, when speaking of females, you use the term "women". Your meaning is obviously derogatory and dismissive, and makes you appear biggoted and sexist. Please stop using the term "boy", it is offensive.

Refer to us as "men" or "male" as these are more nuetral, accepted, and less offensive term.

[/irony]
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Remember when you guys drove away Cielingcat?

Good times.

I'm never showing anyone this board again. That was easily this board's most shameful moment, on-par with the Arturick shit.
I have made the mistake of sharing this board. I will not bother repeating it.

I stay because the mechanical discussions on gaming are useful tools for personal game design and the OT discussions are occasionally mind-flexing.
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Post by violence in the media »

Zinegata wrote:But your guesses are very often wrong.

And these "guesses" in fact do little but strengthen the impression that lots of Den people that are extreme-left wing nuts who demonize even neutral people as conservatives because they're so rooted in ideology they can no longer see the world in any other terms except left-wing or right-wing.

I tell somebody that poverty is much worse outside of the United States. Your conclusion is that I believe poor people only have themselves to blame - a real stupid conservative talking point.

Yet there is no link or causality between the two. That's just a knee jerk reaction because I had the temerity not to blindly repeat the liberal talking point of "The reason why there are poor in America is because corporations are EVIL".
Hey, I'm okay with being wrong. What's your beef exactly with this board being a collection of "extreme-left wing nuts who demonize even neutral people as conservatives because they're so rooted in ideology they can no longer see the world in any other terms except left-wing or right-wing."?

You mentioned star destroyer (in the Star Trek thread) as having a perceptibly conservative bias, but being a better board overall because it tolerated opposing points of view in a superior manner to the Den somehow. If it's as tolerant and inclusive as you claim, how'd you even notice the conservative bias? Do they mistake you for a liberal over there, on account of your neutrality in the face of that conservative bias? Or is your neutrality more of the American Independent variety, where someone claims independence and doesn't declare themselves aligned with a party, yet votes for that party in every election for decades?
Real, thinking, people do not base their lives on one set of political talking points.
I hope the Den doesn't qualify as anyone's life. Still, I'm curious: what do True Scotsmen base their lives on?
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Post by Maj »

Violence in the Media wrote:Like talk radio, private gaming websites are often havens of conservative thought.
Really? Why do you suppose this is the case?
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Post by Psychic Robot »

You mentioned star destroyer (in the Star Trek thread) as having a perceptibly conservative bias, but being a better board overall because it tolerated opposing points of view in a superior manner to the Den somehow. If it's as tolerant and inclusive as you claim, how'd you even notice the conservative bias? Do they mistake you for a liberal over there, on account of your neutrality in the face of that conservative bias? Or is your neutrality more of the American Independent variety, where someone claims independence and doesn't declare themselves aligned with a party, yet votes for that party in every election for decades?
You mad. If you're so emotionally invested in this that you need to rant about how it's impossible that a forum can have a conservative bias and yet be more tolerant than TGD, then perhaps you need to step back from the computer and take a breather.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
violence in the media
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Post by violence in the media »

Maj wrote:
Violence in the Media wrote:Like talk radio, private gaming websites are often havens of conservative thought.
Really? Why do you suppose this is the case?
I honestly don't know. It's curious because, as Zinegata already mentioned, it seems weirdly incongruent and I just don't get it. Maybe it's entirely my perception? ::shrug::

edit: @PR--That's funny, I don't feel mad.
Last edited by violence in the media on Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I know a couple conservatives that are pretty open-minded people, and are open to discussion on things liberals want. They just want to make sure everything is paid for before we try anything social. (Note that all of them consider the Tea Party to be lunatics.)
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Post by Kaelik »

Psychic Robot wrote:
You mentioned star destroyer (in the Star Trek thread) as having a perceptibly conservative bias, but being a better board overall because it tolerated opposing points of view in a superior manner to the Den somehow. If it's as tolerant and inclusive as you claim, how'd you even notice the conservative bias? Do they mistake you for a liberal over there, on account of your neutrality in the face of that conservative bias? Or is your neutrality more of the American Independent variety, where someone claims independence and doesn't declare themselves aligned with a party, yet votes for that party in every election for decades?
You mad. If you're so emotionally invested in this that you need to rant about how it's impossible that a forum can have a conservative bias and yet be more tolerant than TGD, then perhaps you need to step back from the computer and take a breather.
PR, don't be stupid. He's not ranting about how it's impossible. He's calling out Zine on his various claims of tolerance/evil liberal bias/other shit that I don't care about. Even if you think he's doing a bad job, that doesn't mean he's claiming it's impossible for a conservative bias to be more tolerant that TGD. If anything, he's saying that tolerance should make it impossible for Zine to detect the bias.

@Zine you are kinda railing at the wrong thing. Lots of people who are really liberal here, like myself and Frank and Crissa are more liberal than the rest of the board like vitm, but we don't demonize people as conservative, we call them wrong, irrespective of conservative/liberal, because we have different conceptions of what are important than most people, even other liberals.

TGD is an extreme place, and an extremely liberal place, but all the extremists are not extreme versions of conventional liberalism.

They are differet types of liberalism, and no one is taking their positions because they were told to by the hive mind. I advocate murdering feti because it's something I care about, Crissa advocates sexism because it's what she cares about, and Frank advocates socialized medicine because that's his thing.
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Post by Zinegata »

violence in the media wrote:You mentioned star destroyer (in the Star Trek thread) as having a perceptibly conservative bias, but being a better board overall because it tolerated opposing points of view in a superior manner to the Den somehow. If it's as tolerant and inclusive as you claim, how'd you even notice the conservative bias? Do they mistake you for a liberal over there, on account of your neutrality in the face of that conservative bias? Or is your neutrality more of the American Independent variety, where someone claims independence and doesn't declare themselves aligned with a party, yet votes for that party in every election for decades?
No, they don't mistake me for anything.

The admin of SD.net may hate communism, and he's pretty right-wing. And the place hosts fanfics like Salvation War which depicts Bush as a hero.

But when somebody posts a thread saying Israelis are asses to the Palestinians, nobody calls them a liberal pro-Iranian holocause denier. It's more of "Yeah, sure. That's a valid belief".

Here in the Den? Nope. You've got people accusing others of being Teabaggers just for saying "Dude, the Healthcare bill is crazy expensive".
I hope the Den doesn't qualify as anyone's life.
No, but they sure like to make judgements entirely based on scattered posts they read from the Den alone.
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Post by Zinegata »

Kaelik wrote:He's calling out Zine on his various claims of tolerance/evil liberal bias/other shit that I don't care about. Even if you think he's doing a bad job, that doesn't mean he's claiming it's impossible for a conservative bias to be more tolerant that TGD. If anything, he's saying that tolerance should make it impossible for Zine to detect the bias.
Except I just showed how the admin is rather right-wing biased. He is vehemently against communism. His forum hosts the Salvation War. Where George W. Bush is a genius hero.

OTOH, Wong is also an ardent opponent of Creationist Theory, hates racism in all its forms, and thinks religion is silly. But none of those contradict an anti left-wing bent. They do however, very much NOT make him an extreme bible-thumper.

And again, despite this, the board is rather even-handed. The only thing they do not tolerate are people who lie, who refuse to cite sources, and people who use racial, homophobic, or sexual slurs. Because decent people do not need to call each other names to have a direct conversation.
@Zine you are kinda railing at the wrong thing. Lots of people who are really liberal here, like myself and Frank and Crissa are more liberal than the rest of the board like vitm, but we don't demonize people as conservative, we call them wrong, irrespective of conservative/liberal, because we have different conceptions of what are important than most people, even other liberals.

TGD is an extreme place, and an extremely liberal place, but all the extremists are not extreme versions of conventional liberalism.

They are differet types of liberalism, and no one is taking their positions because they were told to by the hive mind. I advocate murdering feti because it's something I care about, Crissa advocates sexism because it's what she cares about, and Frank advocates socialized medicine because that's his thing.
Bullshit. The fact is extremists in this board take pride in driving away anybody who isn't left-wing crazy. And they take advantage of the liberal moderating style to be assholes to people whose beliefs contradict them.

Hell. People are still high-fiving over driving away Tzor just because he's a right-wing guy.

People in SD.net though? They high-five each other for mocking stupid people, but that's it. Political affiliation has nothing to do with it.

Fact is, like always, you're just making excuses for your own asshole behavior. TGD doesn't have to be an extreme place. But frankly, the whole thesis of this thread seems to be most of the people here are giant Internet dicks who can't hack it anywhere else.

And these same people go whiny and accuse gaming sites of having a right-wing bias instead of looking at how loony left their positions are. Really, again, you're telling me that bible-thumpers own gaming sites like they own talk radio? That most D&D fan sites are run by people who think D&D is the route to a satanic cult?

'Cause I'm gonna have to point out that all the examples cited so far seem to involve individuals in those mysterious unnamed sites and not the site itself. You just assume that there's right wing bias because they let "crazy people like that there".
Last edited by Zinegata on Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
violence in the media
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Post by violence in the media »

Zinegata wrote: The admin of SD.net may hate communism, and he's pretty right-wing. And the place hosts fanfics like Salvation War which depicts Bush as a hero.

But when somebody posts a thread saying Israelis are asses to the Palestinians, nobody calls them a liberal pro-Iranian holocause denier. It's more of "Yeah, sure. That's a valid belief".

Here in the Den? Nope. You've got people accusing others of being Teabaggers just for saying "Dude, the Healthcare bill is crazy expensive".
Hmmm. I've only looked at their rules and gay marriage thread so far.
I hope the Den doesn't qualify as anyone's life.
No, but they sure like to make judgements entirely based on scattered posts they read from the Den alone.
Oh zing! :biggrin:

Seriously Zinegata, I make judgements about most everyone that posts here, based both on what they post and the vibe I get. They're very probably wildly wrong in many ways, but they also don't matter. It's not like I'm ever going to deny you a loan, or a job, or medical care because we argue here. Worst case scenario is that I've made an assessment that we probably wouldn't get along in real life, I'm wrong about that, and we both miss out on a wonderful friendship because of it. I know it's dangerous, but I'm willing to take that risk. :tongue:
Last edited by violence in the media on Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

Kaelik wrote:If anything, he's saying that tolerance should make it impossible for Zine to detect the bias.
And that's wrong.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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