possible different spell casting progression

[Prak]

how viable would a progression like this be?

Level	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
1	3	1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	4	2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3	4	2	0	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4	4	3	1	0	-	-	-	-	-	-
5	4	3	2	1	-	-	-	-	-	-
6	4	3	2	2	0	-	-	-	-	-
7	4	4	3	2	1	0	-	-	-	-
8	4	4	3	3	2	1	-	-	-	-
9	4	4	3	3	2	2	0	-	-	-
10	4	4	4	3	3	2	1	0	-	-
11	4	4	4	4	3	3	2	1	-	-
12	4	4	4	4	3	3	2	2	0	-
13	4	4	4	4	4	3	3	2	1	0
14	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	3	2	1

What about this one?

Level	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
1	3	1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	4	2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3	4	2	0	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4	4	3	1	0	-	-	-	-	-	-
5	4	3	2	1	-	-	-	-	-	-
6	4	3	2	2	0	-	-	-	-	-
7	4	4	3	2	1	0	-	-	-	-
8	4	4	3	3	2	0	-	-	-	-
9	4	4	3	3	2	1	0	-	-	-
10	4	4	4	3	3	2	0	0	-	-
11	4	4	4	4	3	2	1	0	-	-
12	4	4	4	4	3	3	2	0	0	-
13	4	4	4	4	4	3	2	1	0	0
14	4	4	4	4	4	3	3	2	0	0
15	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	2	1	0
16	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	3	2	0
17	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	2	1
18	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	3	2
19	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	3
20	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4

The idea is that most spellcaster get, on average, just ever so slightly more than one half a spell per level, and to allow the most basic of access to 2/3 of a level every level.

How balanced would either of these be for a spontaneous caster?

[ubernoob]

Amount really doesn't fucking matter due to things like pearls of power and the five minute workday. Getting baleful polymorph at 7th level is pretty much a straight power up.

[Username17]

Please use tables. Or Code. Fucking anything that isn't a bunch of numbers in a non-proportional font.

Level	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Copy the above out of a "response" to this post and extend and fill.

-Username17

[Prak]

Sorry, I hate table code because I can never remember it, but if someone goes out of their way to give me a template, well, thanks, it's saved.

[Prak]

Amount really doesn't fucking matter due to things like pearls of power and the five minute workday. Getting baleful polymorph at 7th level is pretty much a straight power up.

Well, basically it's the same, overall, casting as a wizard, just with much quicker access to most individual spell levels.

My friend wants the Sorcerer revised for a tome game, and his thought is to just give them wizard bonus feat progression for heritage feats.
...*yawn*. That just makes them slightly weaker wizards.

So I'm looking at making a class that has actual features, and a specific flavour beyond "Xmen-mutant style caster, possibly because of dragon cawk".

How viable would these progressions be with a clause like the core sorcerer has about it actually being a "per 24 hour period, no actual resting needed" progression, rather than rest and preparation based.

[ubernoob]

Certain spells are ok to get at an earlier level than default D&D places them at. ALL spells are not. This is a pure power boost with no explanation. There's no reason to do it.

Here's what you do if your friend wants to play a sorcerer:
Step one, design a beguiler style spell list based on his theme. It should have 2-3 really good spells per spell level and a dozen or so "that's cute" spells.
Step two, hand him the spell list and let him use beguiler style casting.

[RobbyPants]

I like ubernoob's idea, and if your friend can get on board with the spell list, it will be easier for both you and him once the game starts.

I've been working on a bunch of spell lists like this for a while in an attempt to replace prepared casters. I think it's a solid approach.

[Red_Rob]

Regarding sorcerors, are any of the following reasonable fixes, apart or together?

* Allowing bonus spells to apply to spells known aswell as spells per day.
* Allow a 0 spells known instead of - when the wizard would gain a new spell lvl
* Up skill points to 4 per level
* Allow casting in light armour
* Provide bonus feats at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 that must be spent on Metamagic Feats.

Also, has anyone seen quantumboosts sorceror variant? I like the power path idea, works nicely with the "innate magical ability" vibe of the sorceror.

[PoliteNewb]

* Provide bonus feats at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 that must be spent on Metamagic Feats.

On this note, would anything be broken about just saying that sorcerers can automatically use Still, Silent, Empower, Maximize, Widen, Enlarge, or Quicken (with normal level modifier(s) whenever they want? The whole point of spontaneous casting is (supposed to be) flexibility, right?...you're not locked into pre-set slots. This would just be an extension of that.

[Ferret]

I'd be cautious of giving out free Quicken, Still, Silent, and Maximize.

As soon as you can pay for them, those are incredibly useful, and giving those for free means the sorcerer can take other feats to synergize with them: born of the three thunders and energy sub: electricity, for example.

[Prak]

Had another thought for how to do this progression, it's basically wizard casting, but with a single spell slot that doesn't get bonus slots instead of "0". With a time triggered rather than rest triggered refresh (every day at dusk, for example) this is actually just a cool little extra, and these "early" spells could be restricted to a specific list of spells one can get early.

Level	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
1	3	1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	4	2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3	4	2	1*	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4	4	3	1	1*	-	-	-	-	-	-
5	4	3	2	1	-	-	-	-	-	-
6	4	3	2	2	1*	-	-	-	-	-
7	4	4	3	2	1	1*	-	-	-	-
8	4	4	3	3	2	1*	-	-	-	-
9	4	4	3	3	2	1	1*	-	-	-
10	4	4	4	3	3	2	1*	1*	-	-
11	4	4	4	4	3	2	1	1*	-	-
12	4	4	4	4	3	3	2	1*	1*	-
13	4	4	4	4	4	3	2	1	1*	1*
14	4	4	4	4	4	3	3	2	1*	1*
15	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	2	1	1*
16	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	3	2	1*
17	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	2	1
18	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	3	2
19	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	3
20	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4

Entries marked 1* do not benefit from bonus spells for having a high ability score, nor can magic items or features from other classes give bonus spells of this level.


how viable?

[ubernoob]

Your alternate progression is still bad, Prak.

Certain spells are ok to get at an earlier level than default D&D places them at. ALL spells are not. This is a pure power boost with no explanation. There's no reason to do it.

Here's what you do if your friend wants to play a sorcerer:
Step one, design a beguiler style spell list based on his theme. It should have 2-3 really good spells per spell level and a dozen or so "that's cute" spells.
Step two, hand him the spell list and let him use beguiler style casting.

[Prak]

why?

What's bad about it?

[Juton]

why?

What's bad about it?

I'm going to hazard a guess that Timestop, Gate and Wish may be a little bit unbalancing at level 13. Not that they are particularly balanced at level 17 mind you.

If you are really intent on speeding up a caster's progression, let them get 2nd and 3rd level spells earlier, but have 4th+ arrive on schedule. 2nd and 3rd level spells are powerful, but low cr enemies can probably handle 2nd and 3rd level spells easier than cr 10 creatures handle 7th or 8th level spells.

[Prak]

I'm going to hazard a guess that Timestop, Gate and Wish may be a little bit unbalancing at level 13. Not that they are particularly balanced at level 17 mind you.

Certain spells are ok to get at an earlier level than default D&D places them at.

"early" spells could be restricted to a specific list of spells one can get early.

[ubernoob]

I'm going to hazard a guess that Timestop, Gate and Wish may be a little bit unbalancing at level 13. Not that they are particularly balanced at level 17 mind you.

Certain spells are ok to get at an earlier level than default D&D places them at.

"early" spells could be restricted to a specific list of spells one can get early.

Until you actually write out the spell list, this is just mental masturbation to higher DCs. And if you're actually going to write out the spell list, your idea is still more work for no gain.

[PoliteNewb]

I'm going to hazard a guess that Timestop, Gate and Wish may be a little bit unbalancing at level 13. Not that they are particularly balanced at level 17 mind you.

Certain spells are ok to get at an earlier level than default D&D places them at.

"early" spells could be restricted to a specific list of spells one can get early.

In that case, I'd guess that it's hard to gauge whether your suggested progression is balanced or not by what spells you're allowing sorcerers to take at those levels.

Asking if a certain number of spell slots is balanced is tough to answer when you don't know what can or can't go in those slots.

So what spells are on your list of "early access" spells?

[Prak]

Ok, finally took a look at Beguiler, and worked up this as an alternate class using it's spell progression. How fucking absurdly broken is it?

Spellwarper (alternate sorcerer)
The spellwarper manipulates raw magic through pure force of will. As he shapes and twists the strands, he also absorbs the base energy into his body, where it strengthens his body and mind.

Game Info
Hit Die d8
BAB 3/4
Good Saves Fort and Will
Skills Bluff, Concentration, Craft (Alchemy), Diplomacy, Disable Device, Gather Info, Intimidate, Kn (Arcana), Kn (the Planes), Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magic Device (4+Int)

Level	Special	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
1	Armoured Casting (light), Disable Magic, Familiar	5	3	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	Sudden Metamagic, Bonus Feat	6	4	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3	Learn the Pattern	6	5	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4	Easy Metamagic	6	6	3	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5	Bonus Feat	6	6	4	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
6	-	6	6	5	3	-	-	-	-	-	-
7	-	6	6	6	4	-	-	-	-	-	-
8	Bonus Feat	6	6	6	5	3	-	-	-	-	-
9	-	6	6	6	6	4	-	-	-	-	-
10	-	6	6	6	6	5	3	-	-	-	-
11	Bonus Feat	6	6	6	6	6	4	-	-	-	-
12	-	6	6	6	6	6	5	3	-	-	-
13	-	6	6	6	6	6	6	4	-	-	-
14	Bonus Feat	6	6	6	6	6	6	5	3	-	-
15	-	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	4	-	-
16	-	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	5	3	-
17	Bonus Feat	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	4	-
18	-	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	5	3
19	-	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	4
20	Bonus Feat	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	5

Spellcasting The Spellwarper pieces together a small spell list that is themed in some way appropriate to the character using spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. Some will have an affinty for fire, others force, others deception, and so on. They know all spells on this list, and cast spontaneously as arcane casters.

Armoured Casting The Spellwarper can cast normally in light armour, ignoring arcane spell failure.

Disable Magic The Spellwarper may (explicitly) disable spell effects in place as a rogue disables traps using the Disable Device skill. The DC for a spell effect is 10+Caster Level. A Spellwarper must be able to touch the affected object to disable any spells targeting it. The Spellwarper may also disable magic traps.

Familiar A Spellwarper has a familiar composed of awakened magical energy. This familiar has basic stats like a raven, and advances as normal for a Wizard's familiar. However, a Spellwarper may give his familiar access to his own spell slots, effectively allowing it to cast for him once per round. A Spellwarper's familiar cannot cast without the Spellwarper's permission (such as while charmed or dominated), and once it's cast a spell, it cannot do so again for 1d6+1 rounds, as it must fuel spells with it's own essence. Other wise, it casts as if it were it's master.

Sudden Metamagic A number of times per day equal to 1/3 Caster Level, the spell warper may apply each metamagic feat he knows to spells he casts as he casts it with no increase in casting time. Each metamagic feat has it's own pool of uses per day, and there is no limit to how many he can use at once (other than increased spell levels).

Bonus Feat At 2nd level, and every three levels there after, the Spellwarper gains a bonus feat of one of the following types, reflecting his enhanced ability to manipulate magic or the energy's affect on his body: Metamagic, Heritage, Bloodline (Dragon Mag, not UA)

Learn the Pattern starting at third level, each time the Spellwarper gains a new level, he may add to his spell list one spell he has studied another caster using (by making a sucessful DC 25+spell level spellcraft check as it is cast) at the level the other caster may use it, with no restriction on spell type. For example, a Spellwarper may study a Guardian Naga's casting of Cure Light Wounds with a DC 26 Spellcraft check, and add it to his list as a first level spell next time he gains a spell level.

Easy Metamagic At fourth level, when a Spellwarper uses metamagic, the total spell level increase for all metamagic used at once is reduced by 1/4th his caster level (round down), minimum one.

[ubernoob]

WRITE THE GOD DAMN SPELL LIST. Seriously, nothing else matters. At all. The spell list is 100% of the relevant work. Just stating "Beguiler style casting" and then listing the spell list is EXACTLY what I've been asking for.

WRITE THE FUCKING SPELL LIST. We don't care about ANYTHING else right now. You start with the casting mechanic, then the spell list, then add class features. None of this shit you're doing right now.

WRITE THE FUCKING SPELL LIST.

[Prak]

design a beguiler style spell list based on his theme.

you're the one who said to just do thematic, player based spell lists.

[ubernoob]

design a beguiler style spell list based on his theme.

you're the one who said to just do thematic, player based spell lists.

Right, and you're here for balance. We can't balance it unless we know what the class DOES. The spells are 100% of what it does, so write the fucking spell list and then get back to us. If this means sitting down with your player and writing one, fucking do that.

[Prak]

Sample Spellwarper Spell List for a Fire user

Cantrips (all spell warpers): Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Light, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Resistance,
1st Level Spells Burning Hands, Burning Rage, Fiery Eyes, Kelgore's Fire Bolts, Lesser Orb of Fire, Melt, Scorching Grasp (as Shocking Grasp), Smoke Ladder, Summon Monster I (Fire Creatures only)
2nd Level Spells Animate Fire, Continual Flame, Fire Shuriken, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Energy Surge (fire only), Produce Flame, Pyrotechnics, Scorching Ray, Summon Monster II (Fire Creatures only)
3rd Level Spells Energy Aegis (fire only), Energy Surge (fire only), Fireball, Fire Wings, Flame Arrow, Gaseous Form, Protection from Energy (Fire or Cold only), Summon Monster III (Fire Creatures only)
4th Level Spells Blast of Flame, Bright Worms, Channeled Fireburst, Energy Spheres, Fire Shield, Fire Trap, Flame Strike, Orb of Fire, Summon Monster IV (Fire Creatures only), Wall of Fire
5th Level Spells Anticold Sphere, Firebrand, Fire Breath, Greater Fireburst, Lesser Dragon Ally (Red, Brass or Gold only), Mass Fireshield, Shroud in Flame, Summon Monster V (Fire Creatures only)
6th Level Spells Brilliant Blade, Fire Seeds, Firespiders, Fire Stride, Fires of Purity, Flaming Whips, Ray of Light, Summon Monster VI (Fire Creatures only)
7th Level Spells Delayed Blast Fireball, Dragon Ally (Red, Brass or Gold only), Elemental Body, Emerald Flame Fist, Energy Immunity (Fire or Cold only), Fire Storm, Summon Monster VII (Fire Creatures only)
8th Level Spells Ashen Union, Flaming Ring (as Lightning Ring) Incendiary Cloud, Scalding Muck, Summon Monster VIII (Fire Creatures only), Sunburst,
9th Level Spells Detonate, Dragon Shape, Greater Dragon Ally (Red, Brass and Gold Only), Hellish Horde, Internal Fire, Meteor Swarm, Summon Monster IX (Fire Creatures only)

Alright, kinda simplistic, but hows that for a basic sample list?

[ubernoob]

That spell list is pretty damn weak, honestly. I'd add in at least a handful of utility spells per level and at minimum one save or lose per level. Ideally, the class should be able to target 2ish saves for the first 8 levels or so before it can really hit all the saves effectively.

As for your class, these two things are bullshit:

Learn the Pattern starting at third level, each time the Spellwarper gains a new level, he may add to his spell list one spell he has studied another caster using (by making a sucessful DC 25+spell level spellcraft check as it is cast) at the level the other caster may use it, with no restriction on spell type. For example, a Spellwarper may study a Guardian Naga's casting of Cure Light Wounds with a DC 26 Spellcraft check, and add it to his list as a first level spell next time he gains a spell level.

Easy Metamagic At fourth level, when a Spellwarper uses metamagic, the total spell level increase for all metamagic used at once is reduced by 1/4th his caster level (round down), minimum one.

Get rid of them.

The familiar casting should be modified and pushed back to a later level. Extra actions is HUGE and you can make it a reason for someone to take 8 levels of the class or whatever.

[RobbyPants]

Wall of Smoke is a solid 1st level addition.

Things like Dispel Magic and GDM are handy for about any caster to have.

Add in things like Stinking Cloud, and re-flavor it as smoke.

You'll likely want some ability to fly, although simply adding Fly doesn't seem to thematic. Consider something like Air Walk.

Also, I think the Spell Compendium has a 4th or 5th level spell that lets you do a Dimension Door-like teleport from one flame to another.

I've been working on several lists over the last week on my own, and one happens to be a fire list.

[Wyzzard]

It's too narrow, look at the Beguiler again and notice how many of it's spells don't deal with illusion or enchantment.