The Ends v4.01

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Post by Neurosis »

Hi Frank,

The thing about the 4E matrix rules is, while they're certainly not perfect, they do IMHO work, at least close to 90% of the times. Possibly the worst complaint I could level against them is that they're too complicated. Now obviously this is a pretty massive project you've posted here, which means that reading it, let alone learning it (a more involved process than simply reading it) would be a pretty epic time investment for a prospective GM, especially one whose players are, after almost two IRL years of campaign time, finally getting the hang of the standard SR4 rules.

So I suppose my question to you is, in your opinion, what is so broken about the basic SR4 matrix rules so as to require this undertaking (both on your part and obviously the part of the end-user)? Sorry if you answered this somewhere else in the ten pages of comments following the original posts, in keeping with the theme of tl;dr I've got going here, I skimmed.
So what precisely is wrong with the Matrix rules in SR4 such that they need to be completely rewritten from the ground up (again, for the 10th time)? Simply: the Matrix rules in SR4 do not hold up when people attempt to push them or exploit them. Even authors of Unwired have described it as “Six parts Hollywood hackers, six parts modern tech, zero parts playtesting by a powermunchkin.” And that's a shame. Fundamentally, I believe that the matrix rules need to be more solid than do the rules of other subsystems. Unlike magic or car driving or whatever, the Matrix is predicated on the idea of the acting characters actually knowing the rules and deliberately attempting to exploit holes in them. Hacking is about finding power exploits, so if power exploits exist in the rules it is actually counter immersive for characters in the world to not use them.

So the basic SR4 rules contain the exploits of Script Kiddy (where you can wave your credstick around instead of actually having any skill to hack effectively), Hackastack (where you can benefit from having multiple iterations of hardware to bypass structural limits of personal identity), Drop-Out (where you can choose to segregate yourself from the matrix and still hack effectively despite being unhackable in return), and Agent Smith (where you can gain extra actual actions from your pocket book). The net result is that characters with no technical skills at all can throw some money on the table and hack as if they were dozens or hundreds of hackers at no actual risk to themselves or anything they care about. That's bad, because the entire concept of a hacker entails the fact that if they could do that then they would. It is the hope that these presented rules will not have problems like that, or that if they do that at the very least they will not produce a such perfect storm which relegates the concept of the Matrix Specialist to the dustbin of history.
Well I feel silly! It's the first thing you posted in the thread. Missed 'dem spoiler tags. While I do think I will try to read some of this massive overhaul out of idle curiosity (I loves me some Shadowrun rules), I don't think it's for me and my players. The problem with them isn't that they powergame, in fact the problem with them is usually convincing them to maintain a basic level of competence sufficient to not have every remotely challenging run ending in a TPK. (While only the resident hacker has DRASTICALLY INSUFFICIENT dice pools (I'm working on it atm) they all have a tendency to make stupid decisions, overthink things, or somehow both at once.) The last problem in the world I'd encounter is them having too much power (outside of anything but maybe physical combat).

Thanks! : )


P.S.
Within the game of Shadowrun the player characters drill holes into their heads in order to create a good mind/machine interface so that they can better hack into secure computer systems while running around cyber ninja style so that they can complete espionage missions and go back to the seedy dives that they live in and take the electronic currency that they are paid in and spend what they don't squander on food and rent and buy black market gadgets that let them be even better at espionage and/or shooting people in the face for money so that they can be a bigger noise in freelance crime and eventually retire to a tropical island with a Mercedes full of cheerleaders. A lofty profession and a noble life goal to be sure, and it makes for some very nice storytelling and some entertaining characters.
This made me smile.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

If (like most SR players & GMs) you don't use the matrix rules, you don't need these rules either. For a lot of people, never touching the matrix or making it up as you go along works fine, and doing so is certainly preferable to the rules in the game book.
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Post by Neurosis »

Actually I use the Matrix Rules and am fairly satisfied with them. If I was using my own jury-rigged homebrew type deal, I would definitely upgrade to this. I love the associated fluff and explanations, and also the streamlining to Programs = Spells is pretty sweet.

Although the one thing I question is the fact that brains can be hacked directly. I...don't like that. It just doesn't make sense to me. A brain with no headware is just a brain. Why is any commlink now also a control thoughts spell?
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Post by Username17 »

Schwarzkopf wrote:Actually I use the Matrix Rules and am fairly satisfied with them. If I was using my own jury-rigged homebrew type deal, I would definitely upgrade to this. I love the associated fluff and explanations, and also the streamlining to Programs = Spells is pretty sweet.
Well, it works for both sides. I suppose that if the players never wonder why when they trigger an IC response they are threatened by one Agent instead of a dozen or a thousand Agents, then you can keep using the rules in the book and keep subtly editing out sections that are broken or time consuming on a case by case basis. And if the players don't know the rules super well, they won't even know you are doing it.

I mean, the rules as written require you to spend a standard action and make an opposed matrix perception test on each icon to determine its type. As in, you literally have to roll a pile of dice with respect to every data store, directory, running process, and unopened email to determine which of the ten thousand things represents an actual user. And this isn't even an instant process, you have to roll initiative for this shit. Obviously no one actually does that, they only make the perception tests for the icons that actually represent Agents and Users. But the rules are that you don't even know which of the icons are users or agents and which are just programs, messages, or even decorations. The rules are that you nominate the Yellow Star and then if you win on the opposed Perception test, you find out whether it's an Agent or a start menu shortcut for Miracle Shooter.

Absolutely no one plays by the rules as written, because that's not even possible. The Infinity Mirror by itself renders RAW play impossible. But if your (possibly unconscious) spot changes to the core rules are working for you, I won't tell you to abandon them.
Although the one thing I question is the fact that brains can be hacked directly. I...don't like that. It just doesn't make sense to me. A brain with no headware is just a brain. Why is any commlink now also a control thoughts spell?
Brains are just machines. We read them without putting any hardware inside jut fine. I've segmented a lot of brain scans this last year. It's pretty boring stuff. Shadowrun posits that machines can read and write to brains in a manner that is rapid and predictable. That's really the only part where it gets futuristic.

I can read and change the contents of your brain from several meters away right now. It's slow, it's inaccurate, and the map is incomplete. So it's not something that people really do. But at the point where people can paint trode nets on their head to experience virtual reality broadcast into their brain? Obviously those limitations have been overcome by the drumbeat of technological progress.

The part where you can send stuff into people's brains without any cybernetic equipment is in no way novel once the game introduced methods that they could send stuff into their own brains without any cybernetic equipment.

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Post by Neurosis »

But does a commlink really realistically contain the hardware for phreaking and overwriting the human brain? And if it did, wouldn't it have an availability of LOLFU, even in a world where you're carrying an Ares Predator to the local Stuffer Shack? In so many ways Ends seems to make the Matrix MORE realistic, but that just seems so much less realistic, if a commlink really has such raw, destructive, mind-raping potential they wouldn't be as ubiquitous as cell phones to the power of I-Pods.
Absolutely no one plays by the rules as written, because that's not even possible. The Infinity Mirror by itself renders RAW play impossible. But if your (possibly unconscious) spot changes to the core rules are working for you, I won't tell you to abandon them.
Point! Honestly I had no idea that you had to be constantly running perception tests on every icon, and assumed they were only necessary if the purpose of an icon was unclear or if one was stealthing...just like, you know, NON-Matrix perception tests, to notice things that shouldn't be incredibly obvious.
But at the point where people can paint trode nets on their head to experience virtual reality broadcast into their brain? Obviously those limitations have been overcome by the drumbeat of technological progress.
To play devil's advocate...isn't this where the existing distinction between AR, Cold Sim VR, and Hot Sim VR works in favor of the existing rules? In other words, most people use AR, where you are not normally susceptible to anything worse than mild sensory spam, and your vulnerability increases with your level of tech and ware (from a guy with just a commlink and no optics who uses his commlink by looking at the screen and pressing the button to a guy with a full cybersuite wearing combat armor with a wireless-connected auto-injector). AR is safer, but you can't do any of the cool hacker shit, so it's for most people. Limited capabilities, limited risk. There is no need for the average user to even be using a trode net. Hot-sim VR is super dangerous, but it lets you do the cool hacker shit,. And Cold-Sim VR is somewhere in between.
The part where you can send stuff into people's brains without any cybernetic equipment is in no way novel once the game introduced methods that they could send stuff into their own brains without any cybernetic equipment.
But a commlink CAN'T do that by itself in the default SR4 rules, can it? Don't you need AT LEAST a nano-paste trode rig and a commlink with a sim-module to receive simsense? For a guy with no trode rig, no datajack, and no optics (wireless or otherwise) isn't a commlink just a fancy cellphone? Which I know makes AROs quite useless.

I guess what I'm asking is in YOUR rewrite of the Matrix rules/setting, why is it possible to brain-hack someone who doesn't have at least a (nano-paste) trode net to say nothing of a headware commlink, etc.?

I also had a question about the rules changes you made to the BP/advancement system. Namely, if you use those optional rules, does it mandate restatting all stock and custom NPC stat-blocks so that they are at the same level of relative strength to the player?
Last edited by Neurosis on Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

To play devil's advocate...isn't this where the existing distinction between AR, Cold Sim VR, and Hot Sim VR works in favor of the existing rules?
Not at all.

The switch from AR to Cold Sim to Hot Sim is a choice made by the person operating the brain interface technology. Under the rules, the assumption is that the person operating that machinery is "you" when interfacing with your own brain. So what the rules do is allow switching between those states simply by pressing the appropriate button - no rolls required.

But... why would "you" be holding the control switch? Indeed, if you are just a lonely naked brain with no hardware in it at all, then any person in the room has just as much right to press buttons and project waves into your brain as you do. That is, if "you" can take external machinery and switch yourself to Hot Sim by pressing a button, then anyone else should be able to take the same external machinery, press the same button, and toss you into Hot Sim.

Once Shadowrun dropped the necessity for there to be a physical connection between the brain and the Matrix in order to go Full VR, there was no longer any "realistic" reason within the topology that people across the room couldn't lock you into min prisons.

That being said, the brain hacking available in Ends is pretty mild shit. Turning people into immobile victims in agony spheres is super hard instead of being apparently automatic as described in the basic rules.

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Post by Neurosis »

Basically, I've only skimmed Ends so far but the only thing I've encountered so far that I really have a PROBLEM with is that the NO PAN = VULERNABILITY as opposed to NO PAN = IMMUNITY trope switch.
But... why would "you" be holding the control switch? Indeed, if you are just a lonely naked brain with no hardware in it at all, then any person in the room has just as much right to press buttons and project waves into your brain as you do. That is, if "you" can take external machinery and switch yourself to Hot Sim by pressing a button, then anyone else should be able to take the same external machinery, press the same button, and toss you into Hot Sim.
That's a good point. I mean, you can make the argument that it is a wired switch with no matrix connection but if Smartlinks and Cybereyes are all wireless then, yeah, that's a hard argument to make!

However I still don't understand how, if I have either no commlink or a commlink with no trodes and/or no sim module, your waves/programs can get inside my brain. And regardless of how you explain whether or not that's possible, it begs the SEPARATE point of why commlinks are anything but strictly forbidden.

If (and I don't want to put words in your mouth) your argument is that Commlinks are legal-ish because everyone who's not a crazy Amazonian primitive needs to have a PAN and a Firewall for their own protection, then I just don't like that on a flavor level. It puts us closer to posthuman post-post-post cyberpunk (even people in The Diamond Age would blink at that one) and further way from magical cyberpunk noir.
That being said, the brain hacking available in Ends is pretty mild shit. Turning people into immobile victims in agony spheres is super hard instead of being apparently automatic as described in the basic rules.
In the (more or less) RAW how can you (as a matrix specialist) put a non-hacker with no cybernetic interface into a horrible mind prison, easily, "automatically" or otherwise?
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Post by Username17 »

However I still don't understand how, if I have either no commlink or a commlink with no trodes and/or no sim module, your waves/programs can get inside my brain. And regardless of how you explain whether or not that's possible, it begs the SEPARATE point of why commlinks are anything but strictly forbidden.
The interface machinery doesn't need to be attached to the person at all. The nanite paste datajack replacements have a range of like 3 meters. The sim module that converts computer information to brain text and VR signals is a device that plugs in... to the comlink (not the head of the person who is going to end up receiving/experiencing that VR). Yeah, the whole thing as described requires a bunch of equipment, but topologically there is no reason why any of that equipment can't be in the pocket of a guy across the room while it's turned on and affecting you. It works from your pocket, so there is no reason it can't work from his pocket.

As to why it isn't banned, why would it be? The Shadowrun future has coke machines attempting to send sense data to anyone passing by to show them how refreshing a coke would be right now. Hell, it's only about one step away from those dream advertisements from Futurama. The ability to force someone who doesn't have any AR going right now to be in VR scarcely even merits consideration - every "respectable" citizen is in AR all the time.

But be that as it may, the Hot Sim Module actually is illegal tech. The ASIST interface that you can use in the basic rules to turn off peoples' ability to perform physical actions without a die roll is apparently legal, but the machinery required to crank things up to Hot Sim for yourself (or anyone else) is against the law. Although they do go on and on about how converting legal machines into the Hot Modules is not terribly difficult.

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Post by Neurosis »

I think some of my points are getting lost so I'll try to have fewer points per post.
The nanite paste datajack replacements have a range of like 3 meters.
My interpretation of that (and this might be another case of me subconsciously altering RAW) has always been that the Signal rating represents the maximum distance between the trodes and the COMMLINK, not between the trodes and the human brain. I assumed the trodes had to be painted RIGHT ON YOUR SKULL to do anything.
The ASIST interface that you can use in the basic rules to turn off peoples' ability to perform physical actions without a die roll is apparently legal, but the machinery required to crank things up to Hot Sim for yourself (or anyone else) is against the law.
Um, HOW is it possible in RAW to use ASIST offensively? Aside from knocking someone out with like a stunbolt and jacking them in to Hot Sim with your hands?
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Post by Username17 »

My interpretation of that (and this might be another case of me subconsciously altering RAW) has always been that the Signal rating represents the maximum distance between the trodes and the COMMLINK, not between the trodes and the human brain. I assumed the trodes had to be painted RIGHT ON YOUR SKULL to do anything.
They do not actually say that they need direct contact. There is a separate thing in the game called "skin link" that does need direct contact, but it doesn't have a signal rating.
Um, HOW is it possible in RAW to use ASIST offensively? Aside from knocking someone out with like a stunbolt and jacking them in to Hot Sim with your hands?
The Matrix Topology is this:

There's "you" and there's "your" Persona. The Persona is attached to a Com,link, and it "does" whatever the person holding the Commlink tells it to do. Which is assumed to be "you" but doesn't have to be. In order to experience that in VR, there needs to be a Simsense Module (which is attached to the Commlink) and a Direct Neural Interface. The DNI can either be a hardwired Datajack or trodes that send waves into your head from outside. Either way, "you" don't necessarily have the ability to do anything about the DNI - although you'd need to be strapped into a chair for someone to access a port that is literally on your head without permission. The ASIST is a safety precaution that overrides your physical movements, and it is generated by the Simsense Module, which as previously noted is attached to the Commlink, not your head.

So let's look at the Switch Interface Mode action:
SR4A, p. 229 wrote:You switch your perception from AR to VR or vice versa. Note that switching to VR causes your body to go limp, so do not do it in dangerous places.
So... it's a free action for whoever is holing the Commlink to switch whoever is at the end of the Direct Neural Interface to VR. Doing so causes their body to go limp. This requires zero die rolls, either to establish the connection in the first place (which is automatic) or to switch the target's interface mode (which is also automatic).

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Post by Lokathor »

Hey Frank, since we seem to have your attention in this thread for the moment, riddle me this: What the hell gives with the Seize Network action? It sure seems to be like, balls to the wall awesome. Particularly for a Technomancer. Additionally, even if you think that it's at a fair level of power or whatever, what can a player do to get back their network once it's been seized? Even though you've already "finished" this project, you should maybe talk about that. I've been running a game, and we've been using Ends, except we've basically ignored Seize Network because it seems a hair too grossly unfair.
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Post by Username17 »

Lokathor wrote:Hey Frank, since we seem to have your attention in this thread for the moment, riddle me this: What the hell gives with the Seize Network action? It sure seems to be like, balls to the wall awesome. Particularly for a Technomancer. Additionally, even if you think that it's at a fair level of power or whatever, what can a player do to get back their network once it's been seized? Even though you've already "finished" this project, you should maybe talk about that. I've been running a game, and we've been using Ends, except we've basically ignored Seize Network because it seems a hair too grossly unfair.
Your best bet of course is to simply operate your network through a datajack so that some asshole with a receiver dish can't substitute his brainwaves for yours. But of course, even that won't keep Technomancers out. However even if Technomancers take your datajacked network, they can't kick you out of hanshake range with it, so you can try to take it back. Suckers with trode nets have to manually turn that shit off once they get locked out of the interface.

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Post by Lokathor »

Yeah... two or more "brains" in a network has been a weird thing to think about, and so we've tried to not think about it too much.

Related Cyberware Question: It seems like an Internal SimRig, particularly a Delta Grade one (fairly cheap) is pretty much total awesome, even for non-hackers. Can you route your PAN through that with EUE and then have a wired DNI just like with a datajack? (along with the Software Hotsim and the +3 Matrix Perception and higher essence cost compared to a datajack) If you have the Essence and cash to spare, is it pretty much just "better" than a datajack? (Assuming that you're not a hacker/researcher who needs access to old-style datajack-only machines.)

Other thing: Sprites can't form a Connection from nothing like a Technomancer can, so most of them can't actually participate in most matrix combat except when they've been connected to by someone attacking them. Is a sprite expected to stay "within" their technomancer's PAN and take actions as a part of that, similar to how IC takes an action using your PAN? Or are they really meant to just not really be attacking things, and you keep them around defensively and stuff?
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Post by Quantumboost »

Lokathor wrote:Related Cyberware Question: It seems like an internal SIM Module, particularly a Delta Grade one (fairly cheap) is pretty much total awesome, even for non-hackers. Can you route your PAN through that with EUE and then have a wired DNI just like with a datajack? (along with the Software Hotsim and the +3 Matrix Perception and higher essence cost compared to a datajack) If you have the Essence and cash to spare, is it pretty much just "better" than a datajack? (Assuming that you're not a hacker/researcher who needs access to old-style datajack-only machines.)
Uh... Internal Sim Modules translate computer information into brain text, and nothing else. At all. You can't route your PAN through that because you can't actually send instructions out. Do you mean an Internal Commlink? Or an Internal Simrig?
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Post by Lokathor »

Simrig... damn. yes. edited.
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Post by Archmage »

Lokathor wrote:Other thing: Sprites can't form a Connection from nothing like a Technomancer can, so most of them can't actually participate in most matrix combat except when they've been connected to by someone attacking them.
The Ends wrote:Sprites are almost never actually “in” a particular device, but instead float around in free space as a ripple in the Resonance which surrounds Matrix devices. Like technomancers, a sprite is considered to be connected to all systems within range of themselves.
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Post by Lokathor »

I feel silly.

Simrig question stands.
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Post by Lokathor »

Wait wait wait. I feel less silly.
FrankTrollman wrote:
I take it then, from the fact that the Crack Sprite does have Back Door as a complex form, that Sprites don't automatically open connections on demand like Technomancers do? I ask because, as you probably recall, none of the Sprites that can Merge have Backdoor as a Complex Form (or an option for an additional Exploit Form), which means that sprites can't ever infect drones all on their own. They would have to join into your network, have you (the technomancer) open a connection, and then merge into the enemy drone.
Yes.
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Post by Archmage »

The Ends wrote: Test Pattern
Type: B&D Range: S (LOS) Time: CA Fading: ½R+1
An idea is placed into the Resonance and it holds the appearance of the physically real. The technomancer defines some set of parameters which are then recorded as valid by all sensory devices in the area of the technomancer's Signal range, whether they are microphones or human eyes. The technomancer makes a Resonance + Registering check. Any observers inside the range must make the same number of hits on an Intuition + Response + Signal Defense or the technomancer's defined parameters take precedence over “real” sense data.
So, er, question. Is this intended to be a sustained program? If it isn't, how does it actually work? Because the way I'm reading it, it makes no sense if it isn't sustained--otherwise, how long does the effect last?
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Post by Lokathor »

FrankTrollman wrote:Transfigure
Type: B Range: S (LOS) Time: 1 hour (P) Fading: ½R+2
New data is implanted directly into the values, knowledge, and social mores of the target. The target resists the effects with Willpower, but being attached to a network with the biofeedback filtration active can undo this kind of conditioning rather easily. The effects do not take hold until it becomes permanent, and every round a Firewall is engaged it can make an attempt to prevent it by succeeding in a Firewall + Biofeedback Filter (net hits).
This question came up today: Once the program becomes Permanent, does the target ever get additional resistance rolls even once they're hooked back up to biofeedback filtration? Or do the implanted facts stand up to the normal process of veracity comparison and building over time?

Can I brainwash people into thinking that I'm their friend and then give them back their commlink, or can I only have people brainwashed as long as I never give them a commlink?
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Post by cthulhu »

#
# If you have several Google accounts, there’s no way to select which one to use for Google Checkout purchases. It just picks whichever one it notices first, even if it’s one from an old Google account tied to your mom’s credit card, so now she might know that you bought the app to turn the phone into a vibrator. (The app doesn’t really work since the vibrate motor is too weak, but the reviews by people who don’t understand its purpose are hilarious.)
Frank's proposed NERPs scenario IN ACTION.

Funny stuff/
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Post by Quantumboost »

This hasn't come up yet in the games I'm running, but as far as the "optimized defense" against inappropriately targeted B programs, do Hybrid and/or Flesh Forms count as whatever they were inhabiting before the fusion? Would a hacker have to write a Black Hammer optimized for Vampires and a separate one for Banshees, or do all the (HMHVV 1 or HMHVV 1+3) count as the same creature for that purpose?
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Post by Username17 »

Quantumboost wrote:This hasn't come up yet in the games I'm running, but as far as the "optimized defense" against inappropriately targeted B programs, do Hybrid and/or Flesh Forms count as whatever they were inhabiting before the fusion? Would a hacker have to write a Black Hammer optimized for Vampires and a separate one for Banshees, or do all the (HMHVV 1 or HMHVV 1+3) count as the same creature for that purpose?
Inhabitation spirits count as whatever they are inhabiting for purposes of electronics and VR and stuff. A Fleshform Ant merged with a Human is a human as far as the Matrix is concerned.

Vampire biology is pretty confused and often written by people who don't know very much biology. Vampires are a virus, not a metahuman as far as it matters, so they clearly wouldn't be the same creature as a normal metahuman. However, vampires who drain elves make banshees in at least some of the stories. So I would expect the same program to function equally against a vampire and a banshee and a wendigo. The confusingly written HMHVV strains that affect non-metahumans or don't turn people into vampires (and by definition would therefore not be HMHVV) are confusingly written and have little to do with biology. So I'd very carefully ask the MC how they were planning on running with them biologically before I answered.

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Post by Lokathor »

Archmage wrote:
The Ends wrote: Test Pattern
Type: B&D Range: S (LOS) Time: CA Fading: ½R+1
An idea is placed into the Resonance and it holds the appearance of the physically real. The technomancer defines some set of parameters which are then recorded as valid by all sensory devices in the area of the technomancer's Signal range, whether they are microphones or human eyes. The technomancer makes a Resonance + Registering check. Any observers inside the range must make the same number of hits on an Intuition + Response + Signal Defense or the technomancer's defined parameters take precedence over “real” sense data.
So, er, question. Is this intended to be a sustained program? If it isn't, how does it actually work? Because the way I'm reading it, it makes no sense if it isn't sustained--otherwise, how long does the effect last?
I think it's just supposed to be a sustained data-only illusion.
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Post by Username17 »

Sustained yes, data-only no.

It's the matrix-based hallucination generator from Lain.

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