The Shadowrun Situation

[Zinegata]

I was under the impression all the money about to be made pre-bankruptcy in October is gonna end up with Colemans.

[Blasted]

Really? A final grab for cash before running away?
Given the relatively piddly amounts which the claimants are asking for, I thought that they'd pay them off and continue screwing the cash cow.

[Zinegata]

So the money is gonna go to the Colemans anyway, even in that scenario.

One would think that their sleazy dealings would cause customers to not buy the product, but apparently not.

[Ancient History]

The internet is not the world, for all that some of us think it should be, and most people are ignorant or, knowing, just choose not to give a damn.

For the Colemans, I think the bulk of the milk has been taken from the cow. Loren still draws a salary, and he and his wife are the only shareholders of record - ye gods I really can't wait for when that finally bites them in the ass - but Topps has taken sufficient interest in their behavior that the substantial draws of the past are less likely. Reportedly, steps have been taken to remove Loren from handling any money at all, though I don't know a lot of people that can confirm or deny that.

[Neurosis]

Would it break people's hearts to hear that Shadowrun somehow managed to be the 4th bestselling RPG of Q2 2010 (according to ICV2 - coming behind D&D, Pathfinder, and Warhammer FRPG?)

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/18045.html

I have to say that I am rooting for the Shadowrun brand, no matter how I feel about CGL. While if it were true that that money was going into the pockets of an embezzler (and I can't prove it isn't), that would be horrible, I still want the Shadowrun brand to have a strong showing (and hence keep getting made) no matter who is producing it. Basically I want SHADOWRUN to be the good guys. But Shadowrun is not a person, or a group of people, or any kind of entity. It is just a shared world...and a product.

I had been kind of hoping that some or a lot of that money coming in was going to pay the back checks due to the freelancers, though! Or at least going into the creation, printing, and distribution of future SR products.

[DragonChild]

Would it break people's hearts to hear that Shadowrun somehow managed to be the 4th bestselling RPG of Q2 2010 (according to ICV2 - coming behind D&D, Pathfinder, and Warhammer FRPG?)

It honestly disappoints me more to see Warhammer and Pathfinder further ahead. Shadowrun is at least pretty good, even if it's been driven into the ground lately.

[Kaelik]

Was that supposed to be a case for it sucking or rocking?

Because 4th after D&D that's in the trash, and some damn Warhammer game is pretty shitty.

I'd have expected better from Shadowrun, except they didn't release anything this quarter.

[adamjury]

ICv2's sales numbers are very suspect, basically just gathered from word-of-mouth from retailers.

I wouldn't trust the ordering of anything after the #2 spot, and I only trust it that far because the current #1 and #2 -- D&D and Pathfinder -- pretty much have things locked down for now.

And, Kaelik, the linked report is for the 2nd quarter - which would be the quarter that the SR4A core book returned to print, the limited edition was released, and Vice was also relatively new.

[Zinegata]

The report includes data from distributors and manufacturers. Granted, it's not gonna be as accurate as other Consumer Good Indexes, but ICV2 is like the only source we have.

I also point out Shadowrun getting to the #4 spot as interesting because they weren't even on the top 5 in the previous report (Q1 2010).

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/17575.html

In fact, the last time they'd been on the Top 5 was Q3 2009.

Interestingly, ICV2 reports that Pathfinder is actually doing pretty well against D&D. Their summaries went from "D&D and everything else", to "D&D vs Pathfinder, plus other stuff". On the other hand, the summaries also tend to gleefully mention CCGs and Boardgames, but go "Meh" when RPGs are mentioned (which to me indicates that the RPG category as a whole really sucks right now).

[TheFlatline]

Would it break people's hearts to hear that Shadowrun somehow managed to be the 4th bestselling RPG of Q2 2010 (according to ICV2 - coming behind D&D, Pathfinder, and Warhammer FRPG?)

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/18045.html

Don't bother me at all. However, that's data from right around when all the shit went down.

I would expect to see Q3 numbers tank, on the mere fact that they haven't really been releasing many dead tree books.

I'm done purchasing Shadowrun for the time being. I'll look into it again when they make hacking rules that don't suck donkey dick.

[Fuchs]

I went without buying any books for years at the end of SR3, and don't feel the need to buy more. Rules-wise, SR4 is about done, and I haven't slavishly followed the fluff since Bug City anyway.

[knasser]

Would it break people's hearts to hear that Shadowrun somehow managed to be the 4th bestselling RPG of Q2 2010 (according to ICV2 - coming behind D&D, Pathfinder, and Warhammer FRPG?)

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/18045.html

Not really. Shadowrun's been primarily written by the people who have now been either forced out or left in disgust. It puzzles me when people hold up some of the existing work as evidence of what a good job CGL have done when the credit should more properly go to the people that wrote it, rather than the people that took the profits. Peter Taylor was Line Developer for most of these products.

When Shadowrun supplements released next year (if CGL survives the court case) are help as award winning, then the current CGL will have something to be proud of. Right now, it's like someone called Marjorie did some great stuff and then at the last minute, someone else kicked her out of the way and said: "I'm Marjorie now, give me praise!"

Separately and regarding condemnation for wrong-doing, without going into my personal history, I have long since grown to hold the greatest contempt not for people who steal or rob, but for those that rally around them because of their position or excuse wrong-doing because they get to side with those in power. The Tony Blairs and Hosni Mubaraks of this world are actually few in number. But the people who turn and look away or rush to lick their shoes are legion. Without these people, the thieves would be nothing, so I hold all those that praise the emperor's new clothes as the greatest problem in our society.

[Starmaker]

But I ultimately cannot take a side (either side) because ultimately I was not there.

In before Godwin?
Not that I'm forcing you to take a side, it's just that "I was not there" is a terrible reason to not take a side.

[knasser]

But I ultimately cannot take a side (either side) because ultimately I was not there.

In before Godwin?
Not that I'm forcing you to take a side, it's just that "I was not there" is a terrible reason to not take a side.

If he's saying he doesn't know enough about what happened to jump in and attack someone, then that's a perfectly acceptable reason not to take a side. And in fact, no-one is obliged to take a side. "You're for us or against us", is not a good thing.

That said, anyone reading through the history of all this and applying some logic, ought to come to the conclusion that CGL and its supporters are majorly in the wrong. But no-one is obliged to do so, just so long as they know that "I don't know enough to take sides" is not grounds for doing a critique of those who have read through this history or been involved and know what they're talking about.

[Zinegata]

Well, the sales numbers do generally seem to say that the general public didn't really care (or wasn't aware) of any wrongdoing.

[TheFlatline]

Well, the sales numbers do generally seem to say that the general public didn't really care (or wasn't aware) of any wrongdoing.

Well nobody was expecting massive sales drops due to the controversy. If you didn't hang out on dumpshock, or read Frank's posts in some way or another, you had no clue what was going on.

The damage done was more longterm. They hemorrhaged creativity and as was pointed out earlier, we haven't seen any projects that were started post-exodus and their quality. What we have seen is questionable quality from battletech freelancers.

I think there's a curse of 4th editions in RPGs too. I can't think of any 4th edition game that I've played the crap out of and enjoyed. SR4 only got two or three adventures played before it more or less got a resounding "Meh" from my group, D&D4th was about the same, you could theoretically call nWOD a 4th edition and that bombed in my group... I should go through my gaming collection and see how prevalent that hypothesis is.

[A Man In Black]

I think there's a curse of 4th editions in RPGs too. I can't think of any 4th edition game that I've played the crap out of and enjoyed.

GURPS is six years into its fourth edition and doing fine. Paranoia XP is the fourth edition and is arguably the best. Admittedly, I don't know if you've played either of those, but there's two healthy fourth editions.

[hogarth]

I think there's a curse of 4th editions in RPGs too. I can't think of any 4th edition game that I've played the crap out of and enjoyed.

GURPS is six years into its fourth edition and doing fine. Paranoia XP is the fourth edition and is arguably the best. Admittedly, I don't know if you've played either of those, but there's two healthy fourth editions.

The fourth edition of Champions was pretty good, I thought.

[Username17]

I think there's a curse of 4th editions in RPGs too. I can't think of any 4th edition game that I've played the crap out of and enjoyed.

GURPS is six years into its fourth edition and doing fine. Paranoia XP is the fourth edition and is arguably the best. Admittedly, I don't know if you've played either of those, but there's two healthy fourth editions.

The fourth edition of Champions was pretty good, I thought.

Agree. I played the shit out of 4thed Champions.

And I straight disagree with Flatline's assessment of SR4. It was very good for several years.

And perhaps most importantly of all: 4e D&D is not the 4th iteration of the product. It's the 4th version of Dungeons & Dragons, completely sidestepping Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (which had 2 editions and a revision) and Greyhawk (itself an edition of Dungeons and Dragons in all but name). If you wanted to call the next edition of the game "Tenth Edition" you'd be well within your rights to do that.

-Username17

[Taharqa]

But I ultimately cannot take a side (either side) because ultimately I was not there.

In before Godwin?
Not that I'm forcing you to take a side, it's just that "I was not there" is a terrible reason to not take a side.

If he's saying he doesn't know enough about what happened to jump in and attack someone, then that's a perfectly acceptable reason not to take a side. And in fact, no-one is obliged to take a side. "You're for us or against us", is not a good thing.

That said, anyone reading through the history of all this and applying some logic, ought to come to the conclusion that CGL and its supporters are majorly in the wrong. But no-one is obliged to do so, just so long as they know that "I don't know enough to take sides" is not grounds for doing a critique of those who have read through this history or been involved and know what they're talking about.

Thats utter BS. Reading through a bunch of message boards where 90% of the posts are just mudslinging, and the other 10% are spinning does not give you any incredible clairvoyance into what actually happened beyond what has already been established.

[Ancient History]

What about the public announcements CGL has made admitting the problem to various degrees, or the several documents posted relevant to the case? Are those bullshit too?

[crizh]

and the other 10% are spinning

And 90% of those are you telling us that the Emperor is actually fully clothed because we weren't there and don't know what really happened.

[Neurosis]

In before Godwin?
Not that I'm forcing you to take a side, it's just that "I was not there" is a terrible reason to not take a side.

I don't think that not knowing the facts is a terrible reason not to take a side. Ironically you can "Godwin" either side of the argument because Like Knasser said, "you're either with us or against us" is kind of fascist too.

@knasser: Well hello there! I did not know you posted here. I recently ran your Carnival adventure for my PCs and they really dug it. I took some fairly extensive liberties, turning it into more of a campaign motif than a single adventure, and I actually combined it with the original 1E Harlequin mega-adventure (using some bizarre Something Wicked This Way Comes-esque carousel-based time travel) and ran them in parallel (using two different rules sets and catapulting the 4E PCs into the bodies of their past selves through some metaplanar nonsense) mostly to give them some much-needed context on who that Elf playing ski-ball is and why he is important, since they were all fairly new to Shadowrun. It went really, really great and I loved the Carnival as antagonists...perfect for creeping out the players, especially the Mage.

That said, anyone reading through the history of all this and applying some logic, ought to come to the conclusion that CGL and its supporters are majorly in the wrong. But no-one is obliged to do so, just so long as they know that "I don't know enough to take sides" is not grounds for doing a critique of those who have read through this history or been involved and know what they're talking about.

I'm not critiquing anyone because I'm in no position to. I like and respect all of the wronged parties in this and I am not calling anyone a liar. But I wasn't there and I can't know for sure.

You're correct that on the basis of this thread, it certainly seems that CGL is in the wrong, and really all I was saying is that it seems to me, if we are to take everything in this thread as fact, that Loren Coleman is exponentially more in the wrong than Jason Hardy, with Randall Bills somewhere in the middle.

Well, the sales numbers do generally seem to say that the general public didn't really care (or wasn't aware) of any wrongdoing.

Wasn't aware was the case for me! I didn't discover this entire situation (or this thread) until the very end of August.

What about the public announcements CGL has made admitting the problem to various degrees, or the several documents posted relevant to the case? Are those bullshit too?

They are not bullshit. But there is a wide difference between "(accidentally) commingled personal and business funds" and "embezzled like a million dollars to buy a mansion". And all I am saying is that I am not privy to actual evidence (although yes I know there are 65 pages of incredibly convincing arguments) that it was the former, the latter, or somewhere in between.

In the court of public opinion, to me, CGL is not innocent until proven guilty nor is it guilty until proven innocent. It's neither until proven either. It's Schrodinger's cat. When the judge makes his ruling in court, I may well base my opinion on that.

To sum up: I support, sympathize with, and respect all of the writers who left CGL in the wake of this scandal. And I do not know how to feel about what is left of CGL, but I do not hate them YET.

Is that an acceptable position?

[Ancient History]

Have you seen the charts yet?

[Neurosis]

Has any action of any kind been taken against Loren Coleman?

Was he at least fired?