Necromanceville economics

[Prak]

So, I'm working on a town that sprang up around a Necromantic College in my world, and I've realized a few interesting things:

First, they're all set for all kinds of mercantile exploits. A single mercantile-minded necromancer with the backing of a college can travel three times faster than any other merchant, at least, just by having an undead horse that doesn't need to stop for food or rest. He can travel a further 4 times faster, just because all his stock can be in bags of holding on said horse, rather than in a cart or wagon. So basically a necromantically backed merchant can travel 144 miles in 24 hours, giving him an absurdly large range compared to otherwise medieval method using merchants. They can also carry just plain ridiculous amounts of goods since they can easily carry a bunch of shielded type 4 bags.

Then there's the fact that a single lv 1 Pumpkin King means your main export, other than any minor magic items you ship out, is pumpkins. He can take a seed, and in one round create a harvestable crop of pumpkins, move 30' away, and then do it again next round, with skeletons following behind gathering pumpkins. When combined with an on site Lurker in the Swarm, you've got magically grown pumpkins providing pollen and seeds for bees to carry to mundane patches nearby.

The town can also, because of the Lurker, export Honey, Blood Honey, and Blood Royal Jelly and reap absurd profits, so long as they've got a good source of lv 5 and 10 sentients. Given that this is D&D, there are also all kinds of exotic honeys that can be produced, from the narcotic Yellow Musk Honey, to Assassin Vine Honey, to the necromantically interesting Lichvine Honey.

Then there's the fact that the things they do need to import, such as meat, can also provide them with raw materials for animation, so long as people are ok with eating horse. Import a herd of horses, slaughter them, remove all meat, animate as skeletons, sell skeletal horses that don't go to your merchants. Hell, one necromancer can move a herds worth of skeletal horses to other markets for sale with little to no incidence. Few things are going to even approach a mass herd of undead, let alone prey upon them, there's little to no chance of the herd getting spooked and running, since the necromancer just commands them all, and should the necromancer decide he doesn't want to try and sleep in the saddle, he's got a wall of vigilant skeletons to warn him of any trouble that approaches (admittedly, this is a generous definition of "warn" and "vigilant", but it works.)

My main question here is how much fruit can you get from a single pumpkin seed?

[CatharzGodfoot]

My main question here is how much fruit can you get from a single pumpkin seed?

The more you know...

---

Necromantic economies are interesting, but they are inherently not competing with medieval economies. They're competing with magic economies. Economies that rely on teleportation, planar binding, fabrication, and magic item production.

Still, it's interesting to imagine what a necromancer can produce, and Pumpkin Kings and Lurkers in the Swarms are some of the most interesting necromancers. Seriously, though, don't try to ride a skeletal horse. Hitch them up to a buggy, preferably a hearse. Hopefully by this point you're comfortable resting in a coffin while your minions gallop full tilt over hill and dale.

[Judging__Eagle]

Necromantic economies are something that I was thinking about recently. Specifically how to make them important parts of the game.

If undead are pretty much controllable by anyone (ie. if a creator of undead, tell them to follow someone's orders, or gives them a wand of command undead (assuming a BoG type system where wands just "function", and no silliness about charges); then a necromancer can farm out their labour, in exchange for new, or unique, bodies.

The procurement of a large creature's body to create a hulking corpse means that several skeleton warriors, and skeleton dogs were used to bring down an ogre, somewhere.

If anything, necromancers can be very effective monster hunters, if not for the fear that some may have for creatures made out of dead stuff.

Really, both sides win. Towns get rid of pests, and the Necromancers find a new body to add to their collection of minions. Usually upgrades to their current roster.

Of course, excess skeletons can be sold to communities. Being able to afford a single wand of Command Undead, means that a town doesn't have to worry about sending someone to burn, or drown, or w/e. They can instead send an expendable, and repairable, skeleton.

Likewise, making exchanges, of a wand of command undead, and a creation of an undead for a family, a Necromancer can find that getting the components for say, a Slaymate, isn't that big of a deal. Sure, little orphan Annie is going to empower Natasha Necrotrice's spells, but at least the Thompkins homestead got good old uncle Harold back from the grave, and able to help build chicken coops, and bring in the harvest come the fall.

[Blasted]

Depending on the price of the aforementioned skeleingtons, you could buy a couple to do all the hard work. It's like slavery without the moral quandary. Well, depending on how the skeleton is obtained. It would completely change the lower economies.

[Prak]

all the skeleton trade, especially to commoners, depends very much on people's general attitude towards undead.

In the immediate vicinity of the necromantic college and it's town, things are probably very much like that, but the satellite villages, despite being set up by the college, probably aren't quite that comfortable. I'm thinking they're not even aware, generally speaking, that the leader of the village is a necromancer in addition to whatever other kind of magic they do. But on the other hand, the college specifically sent out six pumpkin kings so that, pretty much at a moment's notice, 20 cubic feet of vegetable matter can be created on any given day, if it's necessary. They can also, with absurd quickness, create an army of undead to defend themselves, the necromantic college, or the kingdom.

The satellite villages obviously know of Steppeshadow, and the indulgences there, but the actual villages were set up to grow naturally, or somewhat naturally at least, so that people wouldn't bitch and moan for handouts, but actually produce what the college needs (other than bodies).

But even so, they're backed by a bunch of powerful necromancers that make several million gold each week just by growing pumpkins.

[ckafrica]

Fido had some interesting ideas of a necromancer economy

[name_here]

Wait, why do they need the outlying villages to make things? Couldn't they replace them with a bunch of undead in those locations?

[Prak]

Mostly for production of farm goods. The outlying villages have farmers and animal breeders and such.

And if that isn't enough of an answer, because skeleton labourers don't buy stuff.

[Judging__Eagle]

Partly as bait, for monsters for the College to hunt down. You need a wide net of villages to tempt the 'random' monsters travelling even a close distance from your central base of operations.

Partly as morality buffer against overzealous paladins and other righteous types. It's pretty hard to justify burning down a college of necromancers who provide outlying villages with magical aid, in exchange for burying, and taking. all dead.

Partly as an actual buffer against bandits, travelling armies, etc.. Sure they may chew up a village badly, but you've got more than 1 level 7-11 spellcaster of some kind. They can just raise hordes of uncontrolled undead in the middle of an enemy warcamp, and go take an 8 hour nap in a Rope Tricked space, before repeating.

Skeleton labourers can be had fairly cheaply, and their ability to work without getting tired is pretty handy. Having every farm with a wand of Command Undead, and then having them farm more territory than is needed to provide sustenance, can make a self-sufficient village into a profitable one.

[TheWorid]

But wait, isn't necromancy EVIL?

[Prak]

nope, not in the game I'm using this all in. Using Playing With Fire option, I have negative energy hungering for life, but is not actually inherently evil.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Partly as morality buffer against overzealous paladins and other righteous types. It's pretty hard to justify burning down a college of necromancers who provide outlying villages with magical aid, in exchange for burying, and taking. all dead.

Paladins will have no difficulty justifying that. They're fighting the minions of an evil empire.

[K]

I could see just about every fantasy setting having several magic empires with magic-centric business models.

I mean, the necromancy nation can just live in some out of the way place because they have such a range on trade and almost unlimited labor.

Then you can have a transmutation nation that turns mice into labor animals like horses or something.

[Judging__Eagle]

Partly as morality buffer against overzealous paladins and other righteous types. It's pretty hard to justify burning down a college of necromancers who provide outlying villages with magical aid, in exchange for burying, and taking. all dead.

Paladins will have no difficulty justifying that. They're fighting the minions of an evil empire.

"You mother fuckers! You killed my fucking grandfather! What the fuck? He was helping me bring in the cabbages for market! Are cabbages so evil that you have to stop them from being picked?"

"Evil Empire" is how some people may see a necromancy heavy region.

The thing is, it's really not. At least not if it's "Playing with Fire". You can seriously have Disney forests, being managed by foresters, and their skeleton porters who stock a deer stand in the winter. Undead used as "tools", and harvested "naturally", are no more evil than using steel tools over stone tools.

The only difference is that when you go into a farm, you can potentially meet the last five or more generations that have been working the same farm. Awaken Undead isn't a super big deal, and doing it once a year on a bunch of skeletons or zombies isn't a big deal; it also means that you can have generations worth of experienced farmers working the same amount of land, and most of the labour doesn't even need to eat or sleep.






mice into horses is awesome. An entire nation of cavalry, frightened of cats and felines, or just predators in general. Horses frightened of weasels or shrews is an interesting idea.

[Prak]

The thing is, it's really not. At least not if it's "Playing with Fire". You can seriously have Disney forests, being managed by foresters, and their skeleton porters who stock a deer stand in the winter. Undead used as "tools", and harvested "naturally", are no more evil than using steel tools over stone tools.

The only difference is that when you go into a farm, you can potentially meet the last five or more generations that have been working the same farm. Awaken Undead isn't a super big deal, and doing it once a year on a bunch of skeletons or zombies isn't a big deal; it also means that you can have generations worth of experienced farmers working the same amount of land, and most of the labour doesn't even need to eat or sleep.

Fuck, I totally have to do that in my game, to show the person who's actually philosophically opposed to necromancy (in RL) what's going on in D&D

[Maxus]

The thing is, it's really not. At least not if it's "Playing with Fire". You can seriously have Disney forests, being managed by foresters, and their skeleton porters who stock a deer stand in the winter. Undead used as "tools", and harvested "naturally", are no more evil than using steel tools over stone tools.

The only difference is that when you go into a farm, you can potentially meet the last five or more generations that have been working the same farm. Awaken Undead isn't a super big deal, and doing it once a year on a bunch of skeletons or zombies isn't a big deal; it also means that you can have generations worth of experienced farmers working the same amount of land, and most of the labour doesn't even need to eat or sleep.

Fuck, I totally have to do that in my game, to show the person who's actually philosophically opposed to necromancy (in RL) what's going on in D&D

I sense a story there. Can we hear it, please please? I love hearing about dysfunctional games, DMs, and players almost as much as Lago likes hearing the faults of Exalted.

[Prak]

oh, one of my players is wiccan(ish) with apparently a long family history of connections to New Orleans, so she is just very philosophically opposed to necromancy, because to her mind it always costs something.

[Endovior]

My main question here is how much fruit can you get from a single pumpkin seed?

The more you know...

---

Fail. This thread is the second google hit on that one.

[RobbyPants]

oh, one of my players is wiccan(ish) with apparently a long family history of connections to New Orleans, so she is just very philosophically opposed to necromancy, because to her mind it always costs something.

So it has to be evil, or what?

Tell her it does cost something: 25gp onyx per Hit Die!

[CatharzGodfoot]

My main question here is how much fruit can you get from a single pumpkin seed?

The more you know...

---

Fail. This thread is the second google hit on that one.

This thread wan't in the listings when I posted the link. I'm willing to bet that the first result still has an answer.

[Prak]

well, I went and found out after posting the thread, before any replies.

The average (it varies by variety) is 9 fruits per vine (individual plant). Which means a pumpkin king gets 9 pumpkins every round, 90 a minute and 5400 an hour.

[CatharzGodfoot]

well, I went and found out after posting the thread, before any replies.

The average (it varies by variety) is 9 fruits per vine (individual plant). Which means a pumpkin king gets 9 pumpkins every round, 90 a minute and 5400 an hour.

[*] 10 tons ground Gehennan wheat flour
[*] 15 tons rendered larva lard
[*] 130,000 cockatrice eggs
[*] 12,000 gallons evaporated gorgon milk
[*] 300 lbs essential salts
[*] 4,000 gallons HFCS
[*] 1,000 lbs pumpkin pie spice

'We're going to need more skeletal bakers.'

[Prak]

My players seem incredulous that the city's main export is pumpkins... I wish I were running for people who knew Tome better.

anyway, about the player. I don't know if she believes it's inherently evil, but rather too costly and self destructive. This has been a point of contention between us before, as I'm all for necromancy, even when it is evil. But, I need to show her that, at least in D&D, there is no cost to necromancy, other than financial. Hell, a Kantian Paladin and a neutral-ish Necromancer would make a good team. The paladin slays evil sending them to their reward, and the necromancer raises the empty shell left behind.