3.5 Quicken has the following clause in it that supposedly enforces Skip's Sorcerer-hating Houserule:
SRD: Quicken Spell wrote:This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.
The word Since can't be used in the temporal sense in this case, so that sentence is equivalent to "Because applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action, this feat can't be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously)."
Doesn't that conditional make the enforcement of the houserule dependent on the truth value of the houserule? If that's the case, then there is absolutely no problem with the 3.5 Sorcerer using Quicken Spell.
Last edited by LR on Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Interpret that as "This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since GIANT FROG" and it actually makes sense.
The sad part is that wording is the fucking clarification of the issue I brought up on the WotC board in 2001.
The 3.0 PHB said only "a spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round cannot be quickened" (page 84)
3.0 PHB 78 said "Casting a 1-action spell spontaneously is a full-round action and spells with longer casting times take an extra full round action to cast"
In sage advice or Tome and Blood or something I can't easily lay hands on in the 10 minutes before I head out, Skip somehow misinterpreted that to mean the order of operations is "Applying a metamagic feat to a spell increases its casting time to beyond the maximum casting time for Quicken Spell before you determine if the spell is eligible for Quicken Spell"
That never made any fucking sense to me, because the order of operations is obviously "Pick Spell, apply metamagic feat, cast spell". If the only metamagic you are applying is Quicken, then you fucking pick the spell, you fucking check if it is eligible for the fucking metamagic feat (which anything with a casting time less than or equal to 1 rounds is) and then you apply Quicken spell, reducing the casting time. There is no "inflate the casting time before you check eligibility again step" anywhere in the rules - and even if there was, then the exception-based, PC-empowering design of 3.0 would mean that such a step would have to be explicit in a step-by-step order, spelling out "check eligibility" apply feat "check eligibility for feat you just applied again" checklist - because otherwise the only sane assumption is that the specific metamagic feat overrides the general limitation on spontaneous casting.
Of course, even better "full round action" means action taken during your initiative (in 3.0 that's "move+standard") and is notable less than "one full round" (which is time for everyone to take their actions in initiative order). So even following Skip's crazy out of his ass Order of Operations results in the spell only ever increasing from Standard Action to Full Round Action, and AT ALL FUCKING TIMES BEING LESS THAN ONE FULL ROUND TO CAST so that no matter how many crazy crack-smoking-extra-checks you make the spell IS ALWAYS FUCKING ELIGIBLE FOR QUICKEN for anything that took less than one round to cast.
How the hell Skip - who despite my venom was generally one of the better rule's guys they had - ever confused that continues to mystify me. ALMOST AS MUCH AS WHY ANYONE THOUGHT SUCH A RESTRICTION WAS NEEDED.
Seriously, we're 10 years past 3.0 - and of all the complaints about imbalances in that edition, have you heard one actual on the ground gripe about Quickened Spontaneous spells being TOO POWERFUL, BAN FROM USE?
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
I expected people to tell me that I sucked every cock because I read the rules that way. I did not expect a complete history of Skip's misinterpretation and a dissertation revealing his secret role in every major disaster since 1888. I'm not complaining, but I am a bit surprised.
If it makes you feel any better, exactly this issue continued to burn on the WotC boards for at least 2 years and got me banned on the grounds that my positions on this very issue were too controversial and created too much dissent.
LR: that reading won't get you shouted at here. It will basically make people say "Yes, that is correct. That's his houserule and if you're using his houserule then that clarification there is needed... that clarification that includes the houserule. You indeed noticed that Skip smokes crack."
Possibly someone might post slowpoke.gif and some might just say "You came to the correct conclusion on your own, I'll buy you a beer."
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Heck, I'll do that. (offer applies only to current TGD members, offer only valid in greater PGH area, offer subject to all applicable state liquor laws and local taxes, void where prohibited)
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
JK wrote:
How the hell Skip - who despite my venom was generally one of the better rule's guys they had - ever confused that continues to mystify me.
I never thought that Skip was all that good of a rules' guy. In the FAQ, he had a habit of randomly pulling new rules out of his (ass)hat and going 'oh, you didn't know that?' See monks and torches.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
For a while, the FAQ had imported an answer from Skip Williams' Sage Advice column to the question of what happens to a Monk's full attack routine if they happen to have something in one of their hands like a torch or a bucket of water. The correct answer of course would be "nothing". But the answer Skip actually gave was that they lose their first available attack from their attack routine for each limb that was not available to punch or kick. So if a Monk held a fucking torch, they would lose their first attack.
This was symptomatic of how Skip handled the Sage Advice column - which was to answer questions at 2 in the morning without thinking anything through, checking any sources or adding any numbers together. His rule book offerings were in general much better, but the Sage Advice answers were garbage. And the worst part is that once he made one, he'd go on and on in the future about how everything he had said was 100% right, even when it was a direct contradiction of another one he'd made at some other time. Not only could he not be fucked to look up a rule before answering a question about it, but he couldn't ever admit that he made an error after having done so. It was annoying.
Don't get me wrong or anything, because Andy Collins is still a rat bastard, but the quality of the 3.5E FAQ improved immensely once he took over.
If Andy stuck to clarifying and interpreting existing rules then I might actually respect him as a writer, since he was actually pretty good at that. It's when he tried to create or adapt material is when things went south. I'll never forgive him for Complete Warrior or completely eliminating 3.0E backwards compatibility by getting a case of Teh Lazies and releasing that utter bullshit that was the Complete Warrior/Divine/Adventurer trio. Complete Arcane I'm willing to cut him some slack on since it's just forgettable rather than actively offensive like those three books.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Heck, I'll do that. (offer applies only to current TGD members, offer only valid in greater PGH area, offer subject to all applicable state liquor laws and local taxes, void where prohibited)
I'm at Carnegie Mellon right now.
You're on.
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote:
See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.
I expected people to tell me that I sucked every cock because I read the rules that way. I did not expect a complete history of Skip's misinterpretation and a dissertation revealing his secret role in every major disaster since 1888. I'm not complaining, but I am a bit surprised.
That's just how Josh rolls.
Josh wrote:
I'll buy you a beer.
Heck, I'll do that. (offer applies only to current TGD members, offer only valid in greater PGH area, offer subject to all applicable state liquor laws and local taxes, void where prohibited)
I was very seriously considering taking a road trip to Pittsburgh next year to catch a Phillies-Pirates game or two. If I make the trip, I'll be glad to let you buy me a beer.
You can't fix stupid.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives." ~ Jackie Robinson
MDH, I'm currently working on Pitt campus 2-4 days a week and gaming there Sundays, so CMU is easy.
Z, I hear we built a nice ballpark with the taxes we voted not to impose but I'm still paying to subsidize the worst team in the history of professional sports in a league that's slanted against us- hence my boycott of the sport. But I'd be happy to meet you somewhere before or after your team wins.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
