The Shadowrun Situation

[BeeRockxs]

Not to mention that "A Time of War" is not even out in print yet.

[Ancient History]

From my understanding Battletech, despite producing more products in a year than Shadowrun, draws in less money than SR. Make of that what you will, but to me it says SR is more popular than BT.

As far as the case goes, we know that IMR has tried to settle the case before, and the three had continued on with it. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that IMR does not have a history of paying its debts in a timely manner, and that they most likely don't want the courts to look through their financial records. We don't know whether IMR actually paid Paul Stansel off as they said they would, but they have paid off a number of freelancers and Topps has been running sufficient herd on them to get some books out. So maybe the three creditors had a less solid case now than they started with, we don't know.

[Juton]

However, here's the reality: Battletech is in the toilet. It isn't making very much money and no one cares about it any more. A Time of War didn't exactly set the world on fire, in no small part because it is terrible. The current edition of the Mechwarrior RPG is pretty much DOA.

Now you are really talking out of your ass. Every edition of the Mechwarrior RPG has sucked. History clearly demonstrates that there is zero correlation between the success of the RPG and the success of Battletech. You do realize Battletech is not an RPG, right?

I've got to concur, every version of the RPG has sucked, although 2e was probably the best, and if I had to run a game its what I'd use. If I couldn't use anything else. Battletech have cut back on printing real books for a long time, perhaps things have started to turn around by sending aToW to the printers. Only the true fanbois buy electronic copies, most of jaded grognards only want to pay out real money for real objects, not strings of binary. The mini-TROs seem a pretty blatant cash-grab, with this lawsuit settled I expect them to begin printing real products again soon. If MW5 actually sees the light of day then that could put Battletech back in the black.

Whether CGL will actually pay out the money they owe and if the new products will be any good, we'll have to wait and see.

[Stahlseele]

Well, Battletech could get an Upswing again, if Smith and Tinker / Piranha Bytes would get the Mechwarrior Computergame back on track . .

[Centurion13]

I know you like to cultivate an image of yourself as the man with all the information, but personally I think you are talking out of your ass.

Ah... you must be the pep squad. So that is what you think of Frank's statements personally? OK. What do you think of him as a professional?

Oh, that's right! You have no idea who Frank knows, what he knows or what dog he has in this fight. You aren't even involved in it yourself. So you really can't hold anything but a personal opinion. Of the uninformed variety.

And your personal opinions carry such weight, too. Just like... everyone else's. If Frank is talking out of his ass (and I am not saying he is), he's got you for company.

Jesus, what a blowhard you are. You and Cowlick.


Cent13

[Centurion13]

From my understanding Battletech, despite producing more products in a year than Shadowrun, draws in less money than SR. Make of that what you will, but to me it says SR is more popular than BT.

Unfortunately, that is very true. I move in the wrong circles to see it, but sales figures don't lie.

Unless they're being fudged. Why would anyone do that?

Cent13

[Juton]

From my understanding Battletech, despite producing more products in a year than Shadowrun, draws in less money than SR. Make of that what you will, but to me it says SR is more popular than BT.

That's a bit odd, I wonder how long this trend has persisted? I wonder what they consider a 'product', they probably don't make much of miniatures if they even count them.

Anecdotal to be sure, but in my experience SR is only a fraction as popular as Battletech. I know of 1 GM who runs Shadowrun in Ontario, while there where about 6-7 people who ran Battletech events. I wish it was more successful, it's always struck me as a more interesting sandbox than Greyhawk or the Frealms.

[Kaelik]

Can someone explain to Century21 that I'm not a pro CGL fanboi, and so randomly accusing me of being one makes him look like more of an idiot.

[Orion]

Kaelik, he caleld you a blowhard, not a fanboy.

Juton, how old are you? You seem to be... well, an adult. I can tell you that on my college campus, and the other campuses I know, Shadowrun is HUGE with undergraduates, while battletech is completely unknown.

[TheFlatline]

From my understanding Battletech, despite producing more products in a year than Shadowrun, draws in less money than SR. Make of that what you will, but to me it says SR is more popular than BT.

That's a bit odd, I wonder how long this trend has persisted? I wonder what they consider a 'product', they probably don't make much of miniatures if they even count them.

Anecdotal to be sure, but in my experience SR is only a fraction as popular as Battletech. I know of 1 GM who runs Shadowrun in Ontario, while there where about 6-7 people who ran Battletech events. I wish it was more successful, it's always struck me as a more interesting sandbox than Greyhawk or the Frealms.

In LA I generally have to drive over an hour and a half to get to a place that will run battletech games, and then only on request with advanced notice. In my town (about an hour out of LA) battletech is literally dead. When I picked up the books and the starter kit I posted flyers and a few requests online and didn't even get a single response back. If there are BT players, they aren't interested in playing with new gamers, which means BT is on life support.

Shadowrun is more or less DOA right now too in the gaming circles I've spoken to, which I admit isn't much. I have the largest SR4 collection of probably anyone in my town according to my local gaming store, which constitutes SR4, SR4A, arsenal, street magic, unwired, and emergence.

IMR is, in the grand scheme of things, a failed company. If it's profitable, it brings in such a tiny profit that it's absurd (We're talking a million a year in revenue. It sounds like a lot, but it's absurdly tiny. A startup with 3 people working can turn a half million a year in revenue, it's the profit margins that matter). It's losing it's market share in my region to other, better designed and supported products, and right now the miniatures wargames options blow battletech out of the water. The only reason to be a BT fan in particular is because you love the setting and the story, and right now, even a lot of hardcore fans agree that the story is in a slump.

For BT, they need to overhaul the entire game to a new system that isn't 30 years old, and take advantage of the progress of the gaming world and appeal to the tastes of a gaming audience that is very different than it was in BT's heyday.

For SR? Yeech... I dunno. I personally think that keeping things in that 80's and 90's dystopian cyberpunk style was fine, because even an anachronism like that maintains it's own charm. But I suspect I'm in a vast minority.

New books on a constant basis, a refocus into the game, and good writers who they don't f*ck over probably would be enough. One way or another though, CGL isn't putting out books in gaming stores, and SR is slipping beneath the waves. If/when CGL decides to start producing again, it can't just start up issuing books, because the company spent a year nearly incognito when it comes to defending their market presence.

At this point I think CGL doesn't have any choice. If they want SR to stay relevant, they probably have to push for SR5. Otherwise nobody will care when they publish new books.

[Zinegata]

In my locality, most BT players are indeed older and often play historical wargames.

The few of them who are still around anyway.

[Ancient History]

SR5 for 2011 ("The Awakening Edition") was already a rumor when I left, I wouldn't be surprised if it was seriously pushed - I just sort of doubt Jason Hardy will be able to put a serious effort at a new edition together by next year. 2012, maybe.

[Centurion13]

In my locality, most BT players are indeed older and often play historical wargames.

The few of them who are still around anyway.

Older than what? Dirt? Sadly, I must agree. As with The Flatline, I have to drive about 100 miles to get to Redmond, where they hold the game. Games in Tacoma consume a bit less in gas - it's only a 60 mile trip through pretty country.

From what Frank and the others have said, there is a better way to do the latest iteration of the Mechwarrior RPG, and unfortunately, CGL did not do it. What really bugs me is that the flaws appear so obvious.

When someone pointed out obvious flaws in the writing for my current fan project for BT, I immediately took them up on their critique and begged for more, with chocolate sauce. I wish I could afford to pay them, because what they are doing is editing far better than I can, and it is absolutely necessary.

Paul (the writer/criticizer) reminds me a lot of Frank. I have to admit that if Frank or one of you other more savvy fellows here were to say something bad about a game I was designing - and it made sense - I would start by waving a commission in your face to help me fix it.

That is the frustrating part. Those CGL fellows have to know they are not perfect. It seems to me sheer ego that they won't or can't read reviews, arrive at the correct conclusions and get some appropriate help.

The setting may be on the decline, but if someone hire you guys to re-do it, I have the feeling your version of Mechwarrior would be more appealing than the current offering.

Cent13

[Stahlseele]

SR5 for 2011 ("The Awakening Edition") was already a rumor when I left, I wouldn't be surprised if it was seriously pushed - I just sort of doubt Jason Hardy will be able to put a serious effort at a new edition together by next year. 2012, maybe.

Heh, we have threads about this going on in the german official shadowrun board . . i joked about SR5D20 . . and people believed me . . and officials weighted in with their opinion.
Problem is, SR5 would not be well received in germany or any other country that gets stuff much later than america . . for the simple reason that it looks and feels like a new edition churn out before it's time. SR3 was around for much longer over here, due to the change of german publishing. It would seem that SR4 wasn't even there half as long as SR3. And with the asking price for those books, that's a big no no, as most people over here who like to play these sorts of games simply don't HAVE the kind of money to throw out for books which won't be used for more than 2 or 3 years . .
Furthermore, it would be a death knell for SR4, because nobody would keep buying SR4 books, when they see SR5 on the horizon allready either.

[Username17]

Heh, we have threads about this going on in the german official shadowrun board . . i joked about SR5D20 . . and people believed me . . and officials weighted in with their opinion.
Problem is, SR5 would not be well received in germany or any other country that gets stuff much later than america . . for the simple reason that it looks and feels like a new edition churn out before it's time. SR3 was around for much longer over here, due to the change of german publishing. It would seem that SR4 wasn't even there half as long as SR3. And with the asking price for those books, that's a big no no, as most people over here who like to play these sorts of games simply don't HAVE the kind of money to throw out for books which won't be used for more than 2 or 3 years . .
Furthermore, it would be a death knell for SR4, because nobody would keep buying SR4 books, when they see SR5 on the horizon allready either.

While every edition always "seems" short, the reality is that Shadowrun came out in 1989 and in those 21 years has produced 4 editions.

Edition	Lifespan	Start Year
1st	3 Years	1989
2nd	6 years	1992
3rd	7 years	1998
4th	6+ years	2005

Seriously. People will always bitch and moan that the new edition is too soon or some shit, but the reality is that a new edition of Shadowrun is exactly on schedule. If you throw the first edition's incredibly short turnaround into the mix, it is actually late. And frankly, since SR4 really was a new system full of new bugs in the same way that SR1 was, you would expect an edition turnaround more like SR1 than SR2.

-Username17

[Stahlseele]

Yes, i know and realize this.
But the point still stands that SR4 is now available in germany for i think 4 years or so . .
When you compare that to the 7 years of SR3, then it DOES seem awfully short.

[TheFlatline]

SR5 for 2011 ("The Awakening Edition") was already a rumor when I left, I wouldn't be surprised if it was seriously pushed - I just sort of doubt Jason Hardy will be able to put a serious effort at a new edition together by next year. 2012, maybe.

At this point, the sad fact is that CGL and Shadowrun have been off the radar as far as the gaming community since the beginning of the year, and their release schedule has nothing exciting on it. At all. Even their grandiose plot arcs end up being rehashed stories and characters from old editions, which is in some cases almost 20 years old.

CGL's best bet is SR5. First, it's literally *the* most exciting thing that CGL can do with the property. Seriously. Name something else CGL is capable of doing that would equate to the mass appeal of SR5 revised and fixed up from SR4. Second, you'll push SR5 out, and get your traditional gear, magic, and matrix/rigger book pushed out to all the players. And that gives you maybe a year or so to come up with some really smashing, exciting plot lines while you have a steady revenue stream.

I can't think of a single thing that *could* be done to make SR4 relevant in the gaming world again. Pure and simple.

[TheFlatline]

Yes, i know and realize this.
But the point still stands that SR4 is now available in germany for i think 4 years or so . .
When you compare that to the 7 years of SR3, then it DOES seem awfully short.

The problem here is that SR4 Anniversary edition needed to be SR4.5, and it wasn't.

It needed to be the equivalent of D&D3.5, only not with as much suckage. It needed to fix what was broken, polish old systems, introduce some new ones that worked better (or at least differently) than the old ones (I'm looking at the Matrix rules especially), but was built on, and could still more or less use all the SR4 books aside from the core book.

SR4A blew CGL's wad. Sure, it's in color, and the pages are glossy, that's great, but I flipped through it once and put it up on the shelf for if/when I play a shadowrun game. There's no point in owning it. We're stuck with a broken system until SR5 comes out, and the current edition is stuck in a rut.

Now *will* CGL do this? Probably not. I doubt we'll see SR5 before 2012 as well, if nothing else than the mere fact that CGL won't invest in writing a new edition so long as they are under this probation licensing from Topps. If that went away in the new year, you'd be looking at a year or more for development. If the license stays in zombie land, we'll keep seeing minimal effort developing for the line for maximum profit returns. Meaning more PDF only releases, and crappy/questionable production values.

[magnuskn]

Anecdotal to be sure, but in my experience SR is only a fraction as popular as Battletech. I know of 1 GM who runs Shadowrun in Ontario, while there where about 6-7 people who ran Battletech events. I wish it was more successful, it's always struck me as a more interesting sandbox than Greyhawk or the Frealms.

SR is still pretty popular in Germany, while BattleTech has been slinking into oblivion over the last years.

That's just an observation from what I've seen at conventions and what I've heard, so take it with a huge grain of salt.

[Taharqa]

I know you like to cultivate an image of yourself as the man with all the information, but personally I think you are talking out of your ass.

Ah... you must be the pep squad. So that is what you think of Frank's statements personally? OK. What do you think of him as a professional?

Oh, that's right! You have no idea who Frank knows, what he knows or what dog he has in this fight. You aren't even involved in it yourself. So you really can't hold anything but a personal opinion. Of the uninformed variety.

And your personal opinions carry such weight, too. Just like... everyone else's. If Frank is talking out of his ass (and I am not saying he is), he's got you for company.

Jesus, what a blowhard you are. You and Cowlick.


Cent13

I am sorry I don't quite understand. You are upset because I hold a personal opinion? Interesting. If you would have bothered to quote the entire paragraph you might have actually noticed that I went on to say why I was skeptical.

On another note, how is that letter coming? As tempted as I am to come by your house and laugh at you, I think I will let you off the hook on that promise, as it seemed clear hyperbole, but I would like to see if you have the balls to follow through on writing that letter.

[Stahlseele]

Anecdotal to be sure, but in my experience SR is only a fraction as popular as Battletech. I know of 1 GM who runs Shadowrun in Ontario, while there where about 6-7 people who ran Battletech events. I wish it was more successful, it's always struck me as a more interesting sandbox than Greyhawk or the Frealms.

SR is still pretty popular in Germany, while BattleTech has been slinking into oblivion over the last years.

That's just an observation from what I've seen at conventions and what I've heard, so take it with a huge grain of salt.

Pretty much.
There were 2 Rooms where Battletech was being played at the last Nordcon.
There were, all in all, i think 8 Players.
There were at least 8 rounds of Shadowrun being played in the room across the hall every day . .

[Juton]

SR is still pretty popular in Germany, while BattleTech has been slinking into oblivion over the last years.

That's just an observation from what I've seen at conventions and what I've heard, so take it with a huge grain of salt.

Pretty much.
There were 2 Rooms where Battletech was being played at the last Nordcon.
There were, all in all, i think 8 Players.
There were at least 8 rounds of Shadowrun being played in the room across the hall every day . .

I do have to agree that Battletech seems to have lost some popularity in recent years. It really seems to have gone down hill since 2007 (I think) which was the last Martial Olympiad, since then there hasn't been as many coordinated events world-wide. I know some people have arranged events but haven't used the the CGL-notification system, so people still want to play but don't want to deal with the bureaucracy.

It's hard to gauge how many people play socially, most people don't advertise they are into RPGs. In my town 3.5 is still king, by a large degree. I think at our last con we had 8 3.5/Pathfinder games for ever 4e game.

[Username17]

So, just keeping score: some months back when the lawsuit began I said that other creditors should join it because that maximized their chances of getting paid. Well, the people who were in on the suit got paid, how is everyone else doing?

-Username17

[Juton]

So, just keeping score: some months back when the lawsuit began I said that other creditors should join it because that maximized their chances of getting paid. Well, the people who were in on the suit got paid, how is everyone else doing?

-Username17

Do we actually know as a fact that they got paid?

[Ancient History]

I don't know the details of the settlement, but I've been told that it does involve a payout from IMR to the three creditors.