The Shadowrun Situation

[Stahlseele]

Yes, well, seeing how this was an excercise in trying to get MONEY . . i don't see why they would EVER agree to a settlement, if it did not, you know, involve GETTING MONEY for them . .

[TheFlatline]

Yeah but CGL can say "the check's in the mail".

Or they could have gotten half the money owed, with promises for more as time goes on.

Doubtful though. They probably paid the lump sum.

[Juton]

Or they could have said something along the lines of : if you sue us, we'll go out of business and you'll never see a penny. I'm really curious about the details, will they receive the full amount of the debts, and will they get it immediately or over the course of months/years?

[Taharqa]

Or the settlement could have been something like: "drop the lawsuit and we won't press to have you pay our lawyer fees if you lose." That kind of settlement happens all the time when one party realizes they aren't likely to win. So its quite possible that the petitioners might agree to a settlement without receiving any money. I am not saying thats what happened, especially considering that CGL has already said it planned to pay off at least one of the petitioners, but just because they settled doesn't mean they all got paid and it certainly doesn't mean they got paid 100% of what they were asking.

[Ancient History]

I'd like to reiterate that from what I've heard, IMR is paying the creditors. I don't know how much or the details of how it's going to be paid out, but it is a payday. This is not a case of IMR offering not to charge lawyer's fees or any inane bullshit along those lines.

[Otakusensei]

Or the settlement could have been something like: "drop the lawsuit and we won't press to have you pay our lawyer fees if you lose." That kind of settlement happens all the time when one party realizes they aren't likely to win. So its quite possible that the petitioners might agree to a settlement without receiving any money. I am not saying thats what happened, especially considering that CGL has already said it planned to pay off at least one of the petitioners, but just because they settled doesn't mean they all got paid and it certainly doesn't mean they got paid 100% of what they were asking.

I'm not saying that you are a huge asshole, but the possibility exists that you are. I could point to the evidence, but that's not what I'm doing. On the other hand I could be reading the core book of SR5 right now.

Facts are boring, but speculation is fun! And the best part is, if you're delusional enough you might even fool yourself into feeling important.

Now pay attention and let the big boys talk.

[Taharqa]

I think it is rather amusing that since (1) CGL has retained both licenses, and (2) the forced bankruptcy case has been dismissed, all the bitter anti-CGL crowd can grasp onto is the hope that CGL had to pay out some money for the settlement. That will really stick it to them! Never mind the fact that CGL has been saying all along that it intended to pay them anyway.

The war is over. You can either extend your hate and rage to Topps (the evil megacorp after all) and the U.S. legal system, or you can come out of your bunker and admit that maybe, just maybe, some of this shit was blown way out of proportion.

[Ancient History]

I find it rather annoying that you continue to ignore when you have been demonstrably wrong. In considering your last post:

(1) CGL has retained both licenses,

Yes, IMR is currently under a temporary extension of both licenses, but only through the grace of Topps and with Topps taking a more direct hand in financial matters. To the best of my knowledge, they still haven't paid Topps what they owe them either.

(2) the forced bankruptcy case has been dismissed, all the bitter anti-CGL crowd can grasp onto is the hope that CGL had to pay out some money for the settlement.

The case was dismissed by the creditors after they had reached a settlement for IMR to pay them monies - which was the avowed purpose of the suit. The Unholy Internet Cheerleading Squad (read: me) was the one hoping it would actually tear the company apart and pry the licenses from their hands.

That will really stick it to them! Never mind the fact that CGL has been saying all along that it intended to pay them anyway.

Noo - as a matter of fact, that was one of the general issues. IMR believed they did not have to pay the creditors, particularly Wildfire. Look, you can read all about it here!

The war is over. You can either extend your hate and rage to Topps (the evil megacorp after all) and the U.S. legal system, or you can come out of your bunker and admit that maybe, just maybe, some of this shit was blown way out of proportion.

What was blown out of proportion? Having $600k+ in debt and over a hundred creditors? Because that's where IMR was when this shit started. Outrage at $726,000+ going missing from a company while freelancers are not paid for their work and the culprit is both still in his job and enjoying his new house is not out of proportion. At this point, I just hope the IRS comes through.

[BeeRockxs]

The case was dismissed by the creditors after they had reached a settlement for IMR to pay them monies - which was the avowed purpose of the suit. The Unholy Internet Cheerleading Squad (read: me) was the one hoping it would actually tear the company apart and pry the licenses from their hands.

All that is known by the public that both parties agreed to stop the whole thing.
I don't believe anyone here has proof if/how much money was paid.

[Ancient History]

<raises hand> I have been telling you, I talked to someone involved and they said IMR is paying out to the creditors. They didn't discuss figures, but that is a fact.

[Taharqa]

(1) CGL has retained both licenses,

Yes, IMR is currently under a temporary extension of both licenses, but only through the grace of Topps and with Topps taking a more direct hand in financial matters. To the best of my knowledge, they still haven't paid Topps what they owe them either.

Its kind of interesting how much that sentence changes when you eliminate the word "temporary." The use of the word "temporary" is, of course, misleading and redundant, because by definition any licensing agreement is going to be for a finite period of time. And of course it is by the "grace of Topps," how could it be otherwise? This is a perfect example of grasping at straws to make a perfectly decent situation look worse than it is. Topps extended the licenses to CGL, apparently despite offers by other parties, something Frank frequently asserted would never happen.

(2) the forced bankruptcy case has been dismissed, all the bitter anti-CGL crowd can grasp onto is the hope that CGL had to pay out some money for the settlement.

The case was dismissed by the creditors after they had reached a settlement for IMR to pay them monies - which was the avowed purpose of the suit. The Unholy Internet Cheerleading Squad (read: me) was the one hoping it would actually tear the company apart and pry the licenses from their hands.

I fail to see the issue here. I said the case was dismissed and you said the case was dismissed. The UICS (which includes more than you) has been holding the potential forced bankruptcy up as their last hope for some time now, and now its clear that it is not going to happen. There is no hope.

That will really stick it to them! Never mind the fact that CGL has been saying all along that it intended to pay them anyway.

Noo - as a matter of fact, that was one of the general issues. IMR believed they did not have to pay the creditors, particularly Wildfire. Look, you can read all about it here!

Thank you for the link, it saved me the effort of having to track it down myself. Here are a few quotes from that document:

Even though there is lack of documentation as to amounts owed, and prior to this involuntary petition for bankruptcy, IMR offered to pay Sugarbroad the approximate $2,900 requested.

In early 2010, a payment schedule was agreed upon whereby $959 month was being paid for both principal and interest, on a contract that called for interest only with no due date. IMR was accommodating Paul Stansel’s request to work on returning the principal amount of the loan.

So CGL indicated it was willing to pay off 2 out of the the 3 creditors in the very document that you linked.

At this point, I just hope the IRS comes through.

Hope never dies!

[Neurosis]

Older than what? Dirt? Sadly, I must agree. As with The Flatline, I have to drive about 100 miles to get to Redmond, where they hold the game. Games in Tacoma consume a bit less in gas - it's only a 60 mile trip through pretty country.

It makes me sad that there is so little SR being run in places like Redmond and Tacoma.

When someone pointed out obvious flaws in the writing for my current fan project for BT, I immediately took them up on their critique and begged for more, with chocolate sauce. I wish I could afford to pay them, because what they are doing is editing far better than I can, and it is absolutely necessary.

Paul (the writer/criticizer) reminds me a lot of Frank. I have to admit that if Frank or one of you other more savvy fellows here were to say something bad about a game I was designing - and it made sense - I would start by waving a commission in your face to help me fix it.

That is the frustrating part. Those CGL fellows have to know they are not perfect. It seems to me sheer ego that they won't or can't read reviews, arrive at the correct conclusions and get some appropriate help.

I'm not entirely sure that we're still talking about SR, but if we are...keep in mind that TGD does not represent the larger consensus of opinion on its own, any more than Dumpshock or the offischill forums they put up do. It could be that they simply disagree, or that the majority of fans are telling them something different. Frank/whatever reviewer you are thinking of isn't everyone.

I'm open to the possibility that I misunderstood what you were saying.

I'd like to reiterate that from what I've heard, IMR is paying the creditors. I don't know how much or the details of how it's going to be paid out, but it is a payday. This is not a case of IMR offering not to charge lawyer's fees or any inane bullshit along those lines.

Is there any reason you need to protect your sources in this case? I'm curious who you heard from and when. It might help eliminate some of the wild speculating going on.

Noo - as a matter of fact, that was one of the general issues. IMR believed they did not have to pay the creditors, particularly Wildfire. Look, you can read all about it here!

Seems clear enough. The creditors weren't confident they could win the full amount, IMR wasn't confident that they could win the case and pay nothing, so they settled, paying the creditors some amount that was less than they asked for but still not nothing. Like someone else said I can't imagine the creditors agreeing to settle out of court if they weren't getting paid.

In other words, it's a draw.

[Username17]

Why do you think that the creditors settled for less than the amount they were contractually owed? When Ancient History threatened to walk off of a bunch of project right before they went to print unless he was paid the amount he was owed from the previous batch of projects, they paid in full. They didn't pay until there was a credible threat, because Loren's word will buy you a cup of coffee if you throw in few dollars, but they paid nonetheless.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Paul Stansel got any less money than he was demanding. Indeed, there is substantial evidence that he did. That is a "victory" for him, because he got the money that was supposed to be his some time earlier. But it's pretty much treading water as far as the situation goes. There are still dozens of creditors who haven't been paid, which means that IMR's financial situation is as rocky as ever.

All it means is what it has always meant. People who join in and apply genuine pressure to IMR get their money and people who are willing to let it slide a bit don't.

-Username17

[Ancient History]

(1) CGL has retained both licenses,

Yes, IMR is currently under a temporary extension of both licenses, but only through the grace of Topps and with Topps taking a more direct hand in financial matters. To the best of my knowledge, they still haven't paid Topps what they owe them either.

Its kind of interesting how much that sentence changes when you eliminate the word "temporary." The use of the word "temporary" is, of course, misleading and redundant, because by definition any licensing agreement is going to be for a finite period of time. And of course it is by the "grace of Topps," how could it be otherwise? This is a perfect example of grasping at straws to make a perfectly decent situation look worse than it is. Topps extended the licenses to CGL, apparently despite offers by other parties, something Frank frequently asserted would never happen.

Let's put it this way: when the license expired IMR owed Topps about $150k. On top of this, we know that IMR had deliberately attempted to hold back reporting foreign royalties to Topps. The fact that Topps continued to allow IMR to manage the license until they finally hashed out terms was a fucking gift, and could have been revoked at any time. You might have missed this, but a clause in the license agreement states that Topps can yank the license if IMR is not financially solvent - which they were not for most of the fucking summer. As it is Topps is riding herd on IMR, to the point of forcing all the freelancers to sign new NDAs.

I fail to see the issue here. I said the case was dismissed and you said the case was dismissed.

The difference is who is doing the dismissing. IMR tried everything they could (except paying the fucking money) to keep this from going to trial, and then they finally gave in and paid the fucking money to keep it from going to trial. This isn't the judge throwing the case out, or the creditors bowing out because they don't have a case, like you were implying. This is "IMR finally pays them the money they fucking owe."

That will really stick it to them! Never mind the fact that CGL has been saying all along that it intended to pay them anyway.

Noo - as a matter of fact, that was one of the general issues. IMR believed they did not have to pay the creditors, particularly Wildfire. Look, you can read all about it here!

Thank you for the link, it saved me the effort of having to track it down myself. Here are a few quotes from that document:

Even though there is lack of documentation as to amounts owed, and prior to this involuntary petition for bankruptcy, IMR offered to pay Sugarbroad the approximate $2,900 requested.

In early 2010, a payment schedule was agreed upon whereby $959 month was being paid for both principal and interest, on a contract that called for interest only with no due date. IMR was accommodating Paul Stansel’s request to work on returning the principal amount of the loan.

So CGL indicated it was willing to pay off 2 out of the the 3 creditors in the very document that you linked.

No. IMR claimed that they could pay Paul Stansel whenever the fuck they wanted, that they lost the invoice for Sugarbroad and wouldn't pay him until he signed a loyalty statement, and they were never paying Wildfire fucking ever. That is not the same as stating they are going to pay people what they owe them.

Dicksplash.

[Taharqa]

AH, rather than continuing this line-by-line BS, let me just point out again the assertions that I made that you claim to be "demonstrably" incorrect: (1) CGL has retained both licenses, (2) the forced bankruptcy proceeding has been dismissed.

Despite what you claim, I added no spin to those statements, nor did I imply anything beyond what it says right there. Those two statements are demonstrably correct. It is you who are trying to "spin" the issue by placing them in a negative light.

The basic point is that Frank has been saying that CGL is on its last legs for more than half a year now. First, they were supposed to be doomed by the impending license renewal and then when that did not come to pass, it was supposed to be the trial that would do in the bad guys. But that didn't pan out either. In the meantime, CGL has started printing books again and everything seems to be returning to normalcy. This isn't even news anymore anywhere outside the Den. The court dismissal came and went with hardly a whimper on Dumpshock. Its over, and the only purpose of this thread now is for a bunch of bitter ex-pats from Dumpshock to come here to throw sticks and call people "dicksplash" to make themselves feel better.

[virgil]

Seemed to me most of the very recent posts that weren't asking for an update have been in response to your jackass 'nyah, nyah, you were wrong' posts.

[Centurion13]

AH, rather than continuing this...

Dicksplash.

How... appropriate.

And he's been one all along; kudos to him/her/it for consistency. Which is more than I've seen from Cowlick, who seems to jump from one side to the other depending on the weather and the day of the week.

Yes, am hoping the IRS will take note. Of course, the cops are never there unless it is you who is doing the speeding...

Cent13

[A Man In Black]

AH, rather than continuing this line-by-line BS, let me just point out again the assertions that I made that you claim to be "demonstrably" incorrect: (1) CGL has retained both licenses, (2) the forced bankruptcy proceeding has been dismissed.

Despite what you claim, I added no spin to those statements, nor did I imply anything beyond what it says right there. Those two statements are demonstrably correct.

No, you just omitted "temporarily", the change in the relationship between Topps and CGL, and the fact that CGL was forced by the settlement to pay creditors they felt they weren't obligated to pay.

But you're not spinning anything, noooooooo.

[Taharqa]

Seemed to me most of the very recent posts that weren't asking for an update have been in response to your jackass 'nyah, nyah, you were wrong' posts.

Believe me, I wish I only had to say it once.

No, you just omitted "temporarily", the change in the relationship between Topps and CGL, and the fact that CGL was forced by the settlement to pay creditors they felt they weren't obligated to pay.

I didn't omit "temporarily," AH added it. As I said above, its a misleading and redundant term. Of course the license extension has a finite time limit before another renewal is required.

The other points you bring up are actually not established, but rather speculation that has been circularly cited enough times that people treat it as fact. While it seems pretty likely that Topps is looking more closely over CGL's shoulder at this point, no one here knows the details of the deal they worked out. The only official word we have from Topps is that they are "fully supportive in helping them regain their footing."

The only evidence we have about the settlement is AH's claim that someone on the inside told him money was part of the deal. But even AH says he doesn't know whether it was the amounts that were asked for.

But even if I grant you the two latter points, who cares? It doesn't change the fact that (1) CGL has retained the licenses, and (2) the forced bankruptcy cased has been dismissed. Regardless of the fine print in either of those deals, they are good and promising news for those who would like to see CGL survive and bad news for those who want CGL to die. Thats the score.

@Cent13 - Your post is so absent of anything of substance that the only appropriate response would be to call you a nasty name, but I would rather not do that. How is that letter coming?

[cthulhu]

It clearly is a temporary extension when the normal period is 5 years and this one is 6 months.

When I get a registration sticker for my car, I get a sticker valid for a year. However, the government calls the 1 month version a 'temporary' sticker, despite the fact that both are temporary.

When something is much shorter than the usual period, temporary is a common way to refer to it.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik, he caleld you a blowhard, not a fanboy.

Which is more than I've seen from Cowlick, who seems to jump from one side to the other depending on the weather and the day of the week.

See what I mean Orion. It was mostly only implied in the last post, but it comes across stronger in PMs, and here he even said it explicitly in public.

This motherfucker is so retarded, that he thinks I have ever said anything in support of CGL in this entire debacle.

[Otakusensei]

Taharqa, I just want to thank you for keeping this thread alive.

As long as you keep spreading your word of blatant favoritism, it will continue to clash with the opposing blatant favoritism already present. And thus keep this thread alive.

I want to reach out, because I appreciate what you're doing here. It can't be easy to do what you do. With no real stake in any of this you come back day after day to twist and spin the facts, right here where people who were actually involved in these events come to post. It can't be easy to maintain that level of reckless ignorance. Or to find ways, again and again, to misrepresent the facts like you do.

So go get yourself a beer or something, because you have well and properly trolled this thread well past it's rightful size. What could have been a mere 20 or so pages has exploded under your carefully insipid hand.

[A Man In Black]

Regardless of the fine print in either of those deals,

You're dismissing the dramatically-shorter contract extension and the fact that CGL was forced to pay creditors they had previously refused to as "fine print" but you're not spinning at all, nope.

[TheFlatline]

So go get yourself a beer or something, because you have well and properly trolled this thread well past it's rightful size. What could have been a mere 20 or so pages has exploded under your carefully insipid hand.

Why do I read this in the Bud Lite Real Men of Genius voice?

"So crack open an ice-cold Bud Lite, you titanic troller of tottering truisms! And never let on that you're as polarized as magnetic north!

Mr Shadowrun-crisis conspiracy thread troller!!!!

[Maxus]

So go get yourself a beer or something, because you have well and properly trolled this thread well past it's rightful size. What could have been a mere 20 or so pages has exploded under your carefully insipid hand.

Why do I read this in the Bud Lite Real Men of Genius voice?

"So crack open an ice-cold Bud Lite, you titanic troller of tottering truisms! And never let on that you're as polarized as magnetic north!

Mr Shadowrun-crisis conspiracy thread troller!!!!

"Constantly changing position and ignoring the facts to make the other person look like the bad guys. After all, they ARE the bad guys because they oppose you, and you...are always right"

*Background singers*

"What a douche"